Do you think it's racist to rank or compare races?

In my view, some races have done more for the world than others. This can't be denied. Out of the billions of people that have lived throughout history, across countless different races and cultures, it is impossible to say that they have all contributed equally down the middle. That's like saying that if you put 2 fighters against each other for hundreds of years, they would each land the exact same number of blows. It's statistically improbable. The game has been going on for so long that one particular race must have surpassed another eventually.

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another. It's just wrong. Some races are better than others at certain things. And just like in every other area of life, like sport, academia etc, rankings matter. If you destroy rankings, you destroy the incentive for people to get better. In fact, you also destroy the incentive for people to avoid being ****ty people. Because who cares - nobody's keeping score!

I think it's important to have a civil, open discussion about this without cries of racism or supremacy or any other buzzword. Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races, and if so do you think there are repercussions of banning such ideas?

Crusader13 said:

In my view, some races have done more for the world than others. This can't be denied. Out of the billions of people that have lived throughout history, across countless different races and cultures, it is impossible to say that they have all contributed equally down the middle. That's like saying that if you put 2 fighters against each other for hundreds of years, they would each land the exact same number of blows. It's statistically improbable. The game has been going on for so long that one particular race must have surpassed another eventually.

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another. It's just wrong. Some races are better than others at certain things. And just like in every other area of life, like sport, academia etc, rankings matter. If you destroy rankings, you destroy the incentive for people to get better. In fact, you also destroy the incentive for people to avoid being ****ty people. Because who cares - nobody's keeping score!

I think it's important to have a civil, open discussion about this without cries of racism or supremacy or any other buzzword. Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races, and if so do you think there are repercussions of banning such ideas?

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Do you mean based upon actual statistics?

We use statistical race demographics all the time; those are not racist....what people choose to do with those statistics can be racist.

Crusader13 said:

In my view, some races have done more for the world than others. This can't be denied. Out of the billions of people that have lived throughout history, across countless different races and cultures, it is impossible to say that they have all contributed equally down the middle. That's like saying that if you put 2 fighters against each other for hundreds of years, they would each land the exact same number of blows. It's statistically improbable. The game has been going on for so long that one particular race must have surpassed another eventually.

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another. It's just wrong. Some races are better than others at certain things. And just like in every other area of life, like sport, academia etc, rankings matter. If you destroy rankings, you destroy the incentive for people to get better. In fact, you also destroy the incentive for people to avoid being ****ty people. Because who cares - nobody's keeping score!

I think it's important to have a civil, open discussion about this without cries of racism or supremacy or any other buzzword. Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races, and if so do you think there are repercussions of banning such ideas?

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Yes, by definition that is racist.

Also, I don't think races as a whole deserve credit or blame for what previous generations have done. I didn't discover the ideas and inventions of previous white people and I didn't own slaves or commit genocide on natives.

Crusader13 said:

In my view, some races have done more for the world than others. This can't be denied. Out of the billions of people that have lived throughout history, across countless different races and cultures, it is impossible to say that they have all contributed equally down the middle. That's like saying that if you put 2 fighters against each other for hundreds of years, they would each land the exact same number of blows. It's statistically improbable. The game has been going on for so long that one particular race must have surpassed another eventually.

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another. It's just wrong. Some races are better than others at certain things. And just like in every other area of life, like sport, academia etc, rankings matter. If you destroy rankings, you destroy the incentive for people to get better. In fact, you also destroy the incentive for people to avoid being ****ty people. Because who cares - nobody's keeping score!

I think it's important to have a civil, open discussion about this without cries of racism or supremacy or any other buzzword. Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races, and if so do you think there are repercussions of banning such ideas?

Click to expand...

There is only one race, the human race.

The concept of individual race is a myth created by European Imperialist Colonists to justify and rationalize their evil subjugation of other peoples as they invade their lands and stole their resources while destroying their civilizations and enslaving them. No sane member of this forum will play your bigoted game.

Crusader13 said:

In my view, some races have done more for the world than others. This can't be denied. Out of the billions of people that have lived throughout history, across countless different races and cultures, it is impossible to say that they have all contributed equally down the middle. That's like saying that if you put 2 fighters against each other for hundreds of years, they would each land the exact same number of blows. It's statistically improbable. The game has been going on for so long that one particular race must have surpassed another eventually.

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another. It's just wrong. Some races are better than others at certain things. And just like in every other area of life, like sport, academia etc, rankings matter. If you destroy rankings, you destroy the incentive for people to get better. In fact, you also destroy the incentive for people to avoid being ****ty people. Because who cares - nobody's keeping score!

I think it's important to have a civil, open discussion about this without cries of racism or supremacy or any other buzzword. Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races, and if so do you think there are repercussions of banning such ideas?

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//// arguing that no one race is 'superior' to another is like saying..........////......Depends on one's definition of racial superiority and what makes any given race 'superior' to any other given race.

Crusader13 said:

In my view, some races have done more for the world than others. This can't be denied. Out of the billions of people that have lived throughout history, across countless different races and cultures, it is impossible to say that they have all contributed equally down the middle. That's like saying that if you put 2 fighters against each other for hundreds of years, they would each land the exact same number of blows. It's statistically improbable. The game has been going on for so long that one particular race must have surpassed another eventually.

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another. It's just wrong. Some races are better than others at certain things. And just like in every other area of life, like sport, academia etc, rankings matter. If you destroy rankings, you destroy the incentive for people to get better. In fact, you also destroy the incentive for people to avoid being ****ty people. Because who cares - nobody's keeping score!

I think it's important to have a civil, open discussion about this without cries of racism or supremacy or any other buzzword. Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races, and if so do you think there are repercussions of banning such ideas?

Click to expand...

Ranking or comparing races is racial, absolutely, but not necessarily racist.

Crusader13 said:

In my view, some races have done more for the world than others. This can't be denied. Out of the billions of people that have lived throughout history, across countless different races and cultures, it is impossible to say that they have all contributed equally down the middle. That's like saying that if you put 2 fighters against each other for hundreds of years, they would each land the exact same number of blows. It's statistically improbable. The game has been going on for so long that one particular race must have surpassed another eventually.

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another. It's just wrong. Some races are better than others at certain things. And just like in every other area of life, like sport, academia etc, rankings matter. If you destroy rankings, you destroy the incentive for people to get better. In fact, you also destroy the incentive for people to avoid being ****ty people. Because who cares - nobody's keeping score!

I think it's important to have a civil, open discussion about this without cries of racism or supremacy or any other buzzword. Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races, and if so do you think there are repercussions of banning such ideas?

Click to expand...

For any number of social or economic reasons we will see statistics that tend to break things down by race as well as other factors, that is not racist.

The issue of stats by race being racist comes down to reason for the stat and conclusions drawn from it.

OldFatGuy said:

There is only one race, the human race

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That would be species.
"Race" simply means "group of same descent". It was only in the 1800s the word started being associated with supremacist anthropology and the re-adoption of some very old Indo-European ideals of "purity of blood". Barely a hundred years earlier, in the late 1600s, you would have contemporary writers talking about the Danish and Swedish "races" (in regards to various wars fought in Scandinavia), although their DNA was practically identical.

Our current race definition is just a level of tribalism that went from celebrating the supremacy of your local tribe to a more universal tribe.
Which, ironically or not, is also what you are doing by saying there is only one race, the Human race. But while I tend to agree with the sentiment, I also think one should be aware of the relevant historicity of the term.

Crusader13 said:

In my view, some races have done more for the world than others. This can't be denied.

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Only in the same way as some hair colours, some heights, some hemispheres, some genders, some languages… You could probably pick pretty much any identifiable characteristic of people and there will be some inevitably imbalance in how people with that characteristics have impacted the history of the world. Alone, those measures are meaningless though. You’d need to dig in to the reasons, background and vast range of inter-related factors to establishing anything of significance.

Crusader13 said:

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another.

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I would suggest a different approach to that statement which I think offers much more clarity to the overall questions you’re posing; No individual should be treated differently on the basis of their (perceived) race alone. It doesn’t matter if one race does tend to excel in a specific area, that will only ever be a trend and however significant that trend might be, it’s wrong to presume it of someone based on their race (whether that presumption would be in their favour or not). The key is differentiating between racial trends and individual specifics (a principle that extends well beyond just race).

Crusader13 said:

Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races, and if so do you think there are repercussions of banning such ideas?

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Racism is ultimately about intend, not outcome (though unintended outcome can be relevant too). It would be racist to rank races if it’s done for racist reasons (even subconsciously). That said, I can’t think of any legitimate reasons to actually rank races generically. That feels distinct from identifying and seeking to understand measured trends in outcomes (e.g. different poverty rates, areas of athletic prowess, rate of specific illnesses etc.).

Crusader13 said:

I think it's important to have a civil, open discussion about this without cries of racism or supremacy or any other buzzword.

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1. This is the elephant in the (American) room.

2. We are all expected to ignore the elephant.

3. Websites (Facebook, Twitter, discussion forums, etc.) expect posters to follow my point No. 2.

4. This is such a hurtful topic that it can NEVER be discussed in a "civil" way.

5. I look forward to reading and contributing to threads that you start on other topics.



Best wishes!

TheParser said:

1. This is the elephant in the (American) room.

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Is it an Indian elephant or an African elephant?

Crusader13 said:

In my view, some races have done more for the world than others. This can't be denied. Out of the billions of people that have lived throughout history, across countless different races and cultures, it is impossible to say that they have all contributed equally down the middle. That's like saying that if you put 2 fighters against each other for hundreds of years, they would each land the exact same number of blows. It's statistically improbable. The game has been going on for so long that one particular race must have surpassed another eventually.

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another. It's just wrong. Some races are better than others at certain things. And just like in every other area of life, like sport, academia etc, rankings matter. If you destroy rankings, you destroy the incentive for people to get better. In fact, you also destroy the incentive for people to avoid being ****ty people. Because who cares - nobody's keeping score!

I think it's important to have a civil, open discussion about this without cries of racism or supremacy or any other buzzword. Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races, and if so do you think there are repercussions of banning such ideas?

Click to expand...

The problem with your comment is in the fact that not every race has gotten the same opportunities to reach the levels that other races have achieved. The only way your comment could be true is if each race got the same education, the same opportunities, the same cultural conditions and the same economic wherewithal. If they did, you would find the same amount of accomplishments being achieved. As such, such a statement as yours cannot be made as it is completely dependent on where you were born, who were your parents, the cultural scenario in place, the educational opportunities available and the economic conditions in place. Race is not the determining factor.

Crusader13 said:

In my view, some races have done more for the world than others. This can't be denied. Out of the billions of people that have lived throughout history, across countless different races and cultures, it is impossible to say that they have all contributed equally down the middle. That's like saying that if you put 2 fighters against each other for hundreds of years, they would each land the exact same number of blows. It's statistically improbable. The game has been going on for so long that one particular race must have surpassed another eventually.

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another. It's just wrong. Some races are better than others at certain things. And just like in every other area of life, like sport, academia etc, rankings matter. If you destroy rankings, you destroy the incentive for people to get better. In fact, you also destroy the incentive for people to avoid being ****ty people. Because who cares - nobody's keeping score!

I think it's important to have a civil, open discussion about this without cries of racism or supremacy or any other buzzword. Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races, and if so do you think there are repercussions of banning such ideas?

Click to expand...

1.) racist? depends but probably ends up that way more times than not

2.) you expose the factual flaw in just about any conversation on this topic . . you say in "your view". So you are basing your conclusions on somethign SUBJECTIVE. . . theres no real way to measure what you ask because every circumstances is not the same.

3.) on what premise do you find this IMPORTANT, its somethign that cant be factually determined so what would be its value? I see none

HK.227 said:

That would be species.
"Race" simply means "group of same descent". It was only in the 1800s the word started being associated with supremacist anthropology and the re-adoption of some very old Indo-European ideals of "purity of blood". Barely a hundred years earlier, in the late 1600s, you would have contemporary writers talking about the Danish and Swedish "races" (in regards to various wars fought in Scandinavia), although their DNA was practically identical.

Our current race definition is just a level of tribalism that went from celebrating the supremacy of your local tribe to a more universal tribe.
Which, ironically or not, is also what you are doing by saying there is only one race, the Human race. But while I tend to agree with the sentiment, I also think one should be aware of the relevant historicity of the term.

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Rationalization of bigotry is necessary acceptable.

OldFatGuy said:

There is only one race, the human race.

The concept of individual race is a myth created by European Imperialist Colonists to justify and rationalize their evil subjugation of other peoples as they invade their lands and stole their resources while destroying their civilizations and enslaving them. No sane member of this forum will play your bigoted game.

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Exactly. Race is a social construct and is not recognized by science.

Race Is a Social Construct, Scientists Argue - Scientific American

Germany and Japan had no problem comparing races, how did that end up?

Crusader13 said:

In my view, some races have done more for the world than others. This can't be denied. Out of the billions of people that have lived throughout history, across countless different races and cultures, it is impossible to say that they have all contributed equally down the middle. That's like saying that if you put 2 fighters against each other for hundreds of years, they would each land the exact same number of blows. It's statistically improbable. The game has been going on for so long that one particular race must have surpassed another eventually.

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another. It's just wrong. Some races are better than others at certain things. And just like in every other area of life, like sport, academia etc, rankings matter. If you destroy rankings, you destroy the incentive for people to get better. In fact, you also destroy the incentive for people to avoid being ****ty people. Because who cares - nobody's keeping score!

I think it's important to have a civil, open discussion about this without cries of racism or supremacy or any other buzzword. Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races, and if so do you think there are repercussions of banning such ideas?

Click to expand...

It is absoluetly racist to compare races. Examination of that (bolded above) statement explains why - you conflate individual performance to group performance.

The performance of two individual athletes can be measured by creating some athletic standard(s) and saying that person A is faster, stronger, quicker, has greater endurance or can handle a ball/puck better than person B. Obviously, trying to compare a basketball player to a hockey player could make the results flip and then we would be left to argue which atheletic standard was valid (better?).

For comparing groups that is much more difficult - are Swedes better, worse or the same as Japapnese? If so, then based on comparing which traits and weighing or measuring them how? Should we use athletic ability of their hockey/soccer teams, math proficiency, average physical size, wealth of their leaders, birth rates, musical ability, hair styles or their ability to build houses/cars? Do we count only the best (e.g. the top 10 from each group) from each group or use the group mean/average for all members between the ages of 18 and 45?

LouC said:

Ranking or comparing races is racial, absolutely, but not necessarily racist.

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When you declare the winning (superior?) or losing (inferior?) race then it becomes racist.

ttwtt78640 said:

When you declare the winning (superior?) or losing (inferior?) race then it becomes racist.

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Okie Dokie!

OldFatGuy said:

Rationalization of bigotry is necessary acceptable.

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Bigotry cannot exist without there first being tribalization.

HK.227 said:

Bigotry cannot exist without there first being tribalization.

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Tribalization is not inherently racial. Bigotry exists against the disabled, the emotionally disturbed, the too fat, the too thin, homosexuals, intellectuals, any difference that frightens people dependent upon societal definitions. Those same traits which draw bigotry can be sought in other societies, touched by the gods.

Regardless, my statement was not my intent which was "Rationalization of bigotry is not acceptable." I don't know why I typed "necessary."

OldFatGuy said:

Tribalization is not inherently racial. Bigotry exists against the disabled, the emotionally disturbed, the too fat, the too thin, homosexuals, intellectuals, any difference that frightens people dependent upon societal definitions. Those same traits which draw bigotry can be sought in other societies, touched by the gods.

Regardless, my statement was not my intent which was "Rationalization of bigotry is not acceptable." I don't know why I typed "necessary."

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That makes a lot more sense.

Crusader13 said:

... Do you think it's racist to compare or rank races,

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Crusader13 said:

While every race does and should count as equal, arguing that no one race is superior to another is like saying that no one athlete is superior to another. It's just wrong.

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I know this ^^ conflicted mess is racist.