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Thread: Why Socialism Fails

  1. #171
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    Re: Why Socialism Fails

    Quote Originally Posted by veritas1 View Post
    Were the idea not appealing to the left, they wouldn't be giving AOC endless time on TV. She's become the face of the Dem party.
    What about Obama and Hillary are they socialists in favor of centrally planned economy without private property?

    Conservatives have been throwing the worlds socialist around like an insult against those who weren't socialists that the word has lost its original meaning. Conservatives created AOC and Bernie Sanders by attacking every social program as "socialist."

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    Re: Why Socialism Fails

    Quote Originally Posted by veritas1 View Post
    Giving someone money and having them spend it does not create lasting wealth for those doing the spending and that is the objective.
    Create lasting wealth - whose goal is that? Democrats are typically talking about providing health care and higher incomes via fixing taxes on the ultra-wealthy/corporations, and regulating health insurance/corporations to curb some of the worst results.

    How do you know an increase in incomes for the middle class would not result in statically on average higher education and better jobs, leading to more sustainable wealth? You're just parroting right wing nonsense.
    You do realize right wing propaganda on this is pushed by the wealthy/corporations, don't you?

    What does $1M do for a multi-millionaire? Goes into investments/stocks.
    What about $1M spread out over 1000 people? Goes back into the economy which drives business and lets them afford greater quality of life, education, etc. (a better investment in our society).

    It's so obvious.

  3. #173
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    Re: Why Socialism Fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I have never said "social ownership of the means of production". See, you once again fail to respond to what is actually said by me, and instead try and desperately change the subject.
    What the hell am I supposed to respond to? Here's your original post to me:

    Oh for ****s sake that is the most ignorant thing I have read in some time. Every country on earth engages in some level of “central planning”. Socialism is not defined as “central planning”. Many countries far more socialist than the US are doing quite well with their central planning and have not failed. Learn your ****ing history and what words mean before trying to lecture anyone.

    Notice the bolded part. You contradicted yourself by saying that socialism is not defined as central planning and then saying that countries much more socialist than the US are doing well with their central planning. So, which is it?

    I was also given a definition of "democratic socialism" by your buddy Phys251 that says it entails "social ownership of the means of production" I asked him to define that and he cannot. I asked you and you cannot. Most all of what you've said to me are personal attacks and the little that has any relevance is convoluted. When you have something substantive, let me know. Defining the above term would be a good start.

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    Re: Why Socialism Fails

    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    You want to move toward it. That is what wanting more capitalism means.
    No it doesn't but I see there's no sense beating a dead horse. The one thing we do not want to move toward is LESS capitalism.

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    Re: Why Socialism Fails

    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfDaedalus View Post
    What about Obama and Hillary are they socialists in favor of centrally planned economy without private property?

    Conservatives have been throwing the worlds socialist around like an insult against those who weren't socialists that the word has lost its original meaning. Conservatives created AOC and Bernie Sanders by attacking every social program as "socialist."
    I wasn't discussing Obama and Hillary. They aren't the face of the party at present. BTW, if "socialism" has lost its meaning, I can only imagine what tiny shred of meaning "racist" and "racism" have.

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    Re: Why Socialism Fails

    Quote Originally Posted by veritas1 View Post
    No it doesn't but I see there's no sense beating a dead horse. The one thing we do not want to move toward is LESS capitalism.
    Do you understand what it means to move toward or away from something? Do you understand why things are the way they are now? The closer you get to laissez faire the more you will experience the problems that came with it that led to where we are today.
    Remember Bowling Green! Remember Atlanta! Remember Sweden!

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    Re: Why Socialism Fails

    Quote Originally Posted by veritas1 View Post
    What the hell am I supposed to respond to? Here's your original post to me:

    Oh for ****s sake that is the most ignorant thing I have read in some time. Every country on earth engages in some level of “central planning”. Socialism is not defined as “central planning”. Many countries far more socialist than the US are doing quite well with their central planning and have not failed. Learn your ****ing history and what words mean before trying to lecture anyone.

    Notice the bolded part. You contradicted yourself by saying that socialism is not defined as central planning and then saying that countries much more socialist than the US are doing well with their central planning. So, which is it?

    I was also given a definition of "democratic socialism" by your buddy Phys251 that says it entails "social ownership of the means of production" I asked him to define that and he cannot. I asked you and you cannot. Most all of what you've said to me are personal attacks and the little that has any relevance is convoluted. When you have something substantive, let me know. Defining the above term would be a good start.
    You defined socialism as central planning, not I. I simply extrapolated from there, mentioning that countries that do much more central planning than us are doing just fine, which stands in contrast to your claim in the thread title.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham
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  8. #178
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    Re: Why Socialism Fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Mach View Post
    Create lasting wealth - whose goal is that? Democrats are typically talking about providing health care and higher incomes via fixing taxes on the ultra-wealthy/corporations, and regulating health insurance/corporations to curb some of the worst results.

    How do you know an increase in incomes for the middle class would not result in statically on average higher education and better jobs, leading to more sustainable wealth? You're just parroting right wing nonsense.
    You do realize right wing propaganda on this is pushed by the wealthy/corporations, don't you?

    What does $1M do for a multi-millionaire? Goes into investments/stocks.
    What about $1M spread out over 1000 people? Goes back into the economy which drives business and lets them afford greater quality of life, education, etc. (a better investment in our society).

    It's so obvious.
    It's got nothing to do with propaganda. The fact is that the vast majority of people have NO savings. Money given to them will be spent and while that may be good for others, it doesn't build personal wealth for them. I really don't care of we tax the wealthy some more but that is not going to solve the problem. I also wonder what percentage of the tax burden the upper 20% are supposed to carry. It's 87% now. The reason that so many people pay nothing is because they have no wealth or a means or plan of getting any. The only ways to build personal wealth are:

    1. Education. You train yourself for a career or, if you already have a job, you strive to move to the next level of whatever it is you do. Take classes and do what's necessary to make yourself more valuable to employers, whether your own or others. Now, while having a job is required for the necessities of life, you cannot build much wealth staying in the same job forever. You also will never do it if you cannot mange to save anything. This is why having a robust business environment is so important. More companies means more jobs, more growth and more opportunities for people to improve their lot.

    2. Own a business. Of course, this involves risk and expense but it is the surest way to independence. And it doesn't have to be General Motors, it can be anything, a Taco stand or an internet business, something which puts you in control of your own future rather than having it in the hands of your employers. It's the people who take chances who get the biggest rewards. Sure, not everyone can own a business but it is the surest way to wealth if you manage to do it.

    I also cannot emphasize enough that savings are crucial. Without some, you are at the mercy of others at all times as well as one emergency away from disaster. The number of people we have with no savings is startling. It matters little how much money you hand to people if they're simply going to spend it.

  9. #179
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    Re: Why Socialism Fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You defined socialism as central planning, not I. I simply extrapolated from there, mentioning that countries that do much more central planning than us are doing just fine, which stands in contrast to your claim in the thread title.
    And I pointed out two things; first that Sweden, Denmark, Norway, etc. are capitalist countries and that using them as comparisons to the US is like comparing apples to lawnmowers. Secondly, as I said, I was informed that what liberals favor is "democratic socialism" but nobody can define its core tenets. As for central planning, it is a primary characteristic of any socialist system. Without it, you can't have socialism, "democratic" or otherwise.

  10. #180
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    Re: Why Socialism Fails

    Quote Originally Posted by devildavid View Post
    Do you understand what it means to move toward or away from something? Do you understand why things are the way they are now? The closer you get to laissez faire the more you will experience the problems that came with it that led to where we are today.
    Laissez faire is a museum exhibit now. Talking about it serves no purpose. It also has nothing to do with where we are now. One can create a vibrant and growing capitalist economy without going back to laissez faire. It's silly to suggest otherwise.

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