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Thread: Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

  1. #31
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    Re: Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

    Quote Originally Posted by SonOfDaedalus View Post
    Also, with employer provided coverage your contribution is deducted from your paycheck. You don't notice it. And if you have a good job, you get better health insurance. You don't want...*gasp*...Medicare.

    I have great health insurance from my employer. I believe in universal health care. But I think it would be an easier sell if it not only reduced costs but meant I kept more moneya in my paycheck.

    Finally, much has to be done about fraud. Fraud is major problem with Medicare.



    https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...225176275.html
    1. I'm of the mind that the worst thing to ever happen to health care is health insurance because what we face right now is, IMO, the consequence of the lion's share of health care being, for about 100 years, paid for by deep-pocketed entities that are not the recipients of health care. (I won't expound on that ida because it's more than adequately addressed in linked content from my post to which your above comments are a response.)
    2. I cannot say that some folks "don't notice it." I will say that I think folks who "don't notice it" are idiots, indolent and/or insouciant about their own interests and income.
    3. I had rather health care goods and services prices resulting from market forces interacting in either a perfect competition market structure and/or health insurance prices established in managed natural monopoly market structure.
    Those who jettison the epistemological standards of science are no longer in a position to use their intellectual product to make any claims about what is true of the world or to dispute the others’ claims about what is true. - Tooby & Cosmides
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  2. #32
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    Re: Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    Why?

    Jobs?

    Money?

    Profit?

    And then there is incentive....you take profit out of the equation and a lot of the development also goes by the wayside

    Why should a company spend 20 million developing technology that won’t reap them 100 million? Greed is good at times
    It's odd.... The defense industry seems to innovate pretty well and they only have one customer.... hmmmm....

  3. #33
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    Re: Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

    Quote Originally Posted by independentusa View Post
    How do you figure that the government has failed in any aspect of healthcare. The Medicare system is the most efficient systems out there. Our present for profit health care system costs twice as much per capita as any other country in the world and we rank about 37th for quality of care. And the per capita costs don't even include the fact that millions of Americans do not have insurance or can use the health care system. So how do you say that our government does not do well with health care?
    It is so efficient it is going broke and will be broke soon. It is so efficient that doctors are not taking more medicare patients for obvious reasons.
    Ugg i get so sick of hearing this idiotic idiums that have been debunked time and time again.

    so i will make this as simple as possible.

    the WHO organization on their rankings skews those numbers big time. They give more weight to distribution than they do quality.
    IE their ranking system is bias against people that offer better quality of care for people that say everyone has access to healthcare.

    so basically as long as i say you have healthcare it doesn't matter that it takes you a year or more to see a doctor or that you can't get
    certain medications or prescriptions. as long as you have it then i will rank higher than someone that gives you all of the options you need, but
    you have to pay for it.

    my current healthcare is better than medicare and costs less as well.

    look at medicaid, look at VA, look at the ACA. all complete failures of government trying to run healthcare.
    walter reid come to mind?

    that is what real government healthcare looks like.

  4. #34
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    Re: Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

    Quote Originally Posted by straykatz View Post
    Personally, I struggle to understand why there is so much resistance to improve or replace the health insurance in this country.
    Its quite simple. My healthcare is none of your business. So, of course Im going to resist YOU telling me how Im going to get it.

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    Re: Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

    Quote Originally Posted by Nap View Post
    The bolded is why many would believe in the current system. If half or in some cases most of your healthcare is payed by your employer, why would you want to go to a system that the entire burden is shifted on to you through taxation? Most Americans are covered by their employers so the only people that would really be saving any money are the corporations that the proponents of Medicare for All allegedly hate and those on the individual market. The majority of middle class Americans would come out much worse in a switch to nationalized healthcare.
    If your employer provides insurance, he is taking out of your pay—both halves of it. One is deducted from your gross, and the other half is pay you never even got to see. Duh.
    “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”
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  6. #36
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    Re: Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

    Quote Originally Posted by straykatz View Post
    Personally, I struggle to understand why there is so much resistance to improve or replace the health insurance in this country.
    Why, exactly, must that be done at the federal government level?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  7. #37
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    Re: Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    I am in favor of finding fixes to our HC system. In fact was in favor of Medicare for all rather than ACA. Still think it is workable but people have to understand the complications. For example 1) most people who are not covered by the government via Medicade,Medicare or the VA have have the majority of their costs paid by their employer. 2) So we have to have an adult discussion of who will pick up those costs.

    Many large companies are actually self-insured. Insurance companies are the administrators of the policies of the companies. So there is no one great evil that if we just fix all our cost problems go away.
    1) That is somewhat misleading since the employer just considers that part of their direct labor cost. If an employer (aka job creator) is paying (subsidizing) their employees' medical care insurance costs then that is (currently) less expensive for them than increasing their annual salaries by the same amount. This bizarre situation is because of the federal income (and payroll) tax code. The employer writes off the entire insurance subsidy amount but the employee pays no income tax on it either.

    2) I agree. If we were to assume that the employer would (somehow) break even by no longer doing so then only a portion of the employer's current medical care insurance subsidy would be added to each employee's salary (to keep overall direct labor costs the same) . That would bump every employee's taxable income up by a considerable amount. The question then becomes - how would the resulting federal income (and payroll) tax windfall be treated?
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  8. #38
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    Re: Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    1) That is somewhat misleading since the employer just considers that part of their direct labor cost. If an employer (aka job creator) is paying (subsidizing) their employees' medical care insurance costs then that is (currently) less expensive for them than increasing their annual salaries by the same amount. This bizarre situation is because of the federal income (and payroll) tax code. The employer writes off the entire insurance subsidy amount but the employee pays no income tax on it either.

    2) I agree. If we were to assume that the employer would (somehow) break even by no longer doing so then only a portion of the employer's current medical care insurance subsidy would be added to each employee's salary (to keep overall direct labor costs the same) . That would bump every employee's taxable income up by a considerable amount. The question then becomes - how would the resulting federal income (and payroll) tax windfall be treated?
    Interesting. Your post above has been the subject of a lot of debate by many. Not sure that the costs that employers currently pick up would naturally be passed along as wage increases if they go away.

    I could be wrong but doubt that a warehouse peron currently making $25-30K per year will get a windfall raise of $10K because we go to Medicare for all.

  9. #39
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    Re: Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Interesting. Your post above has been the subject of a lot of debate by many. Not sure that the costs that employers currently pick up would naturally be passed along as wage increases if they go away.

    I could be wrong but doubt that a warehouse peron currently making $25-30K per year will get a windfall raise of $10K because we go to Medicare for all.
    If not then the warehouse owner (assuming they had 50 employees) could (would?) get a $500K/year pay raise (by keeping total direct labor costs the same). Since most who like UHC also dislike income inequality that would seem to be a very bad trade-off.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

  10. #40
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    Re: Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    If not then the warehouse owner (assuming they had 50 employees) could (would?) get a $500K/year pay raise (by keeping total direct labor costs the same). Since most who like UHC also dislike income inequality that would seem to be a very bad trade-off.
    Thus the problem of how to fund this change.

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