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Why Trump Will Lose The Government Shutdown Fight

TheParser said:
The President is a patriot.

When he leaves the White House, he wants to know that he was able to build a "barrier" to help protect our country from people who think that they have a God-given right to just walk in here whenever they feel like it.

I hope that he does not blink.

He should stay strong until the Dems demand that Nancy and Chuck come to the table.

If his firmness destroys his chance at reelection, he will be able to return to his business knowing that millions of Americans thank him for doing the best job he could, despite the unrelenting opposition from people whose motives are suspect.
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So, you're more concerned about the president blinking than the plight of 800,000 fed workers who cannot afford the rent?


Spoken like a true republican, a non caring SOB.
 
WCH said:
Far as I'm concerned, you're just another foreign agent speaking out of turn. Worry about you own country. Your input is worthless to this conversation.
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That's nuts.


As an american, when the subject of Brexit or foreign affairs is brought up, I, as a citizen of the US and the World, have a right to talk about it.
 
WCH said:
So you believe foreigners should have voice in our political affairs? I don't.
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I encounter foreigners all the time. I ask them for their feedback on what is going on in America.

I find their input and perspective valuable.

It's a shame that you do not. You sound like a typical right wing xenophobe, furthering a xenophobia disease which is the prime mover of this so-called "crisis" in the first place.
 
tres borrachos said:
This is someone else's message board. I'm sure you're able to make your own and prohibit foreigners from joining. Unfortunately for you, you don't get to make the rules here.

We will all miss you when you're gone.
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I won't.
 
OscarLevant said:
Okay, solution:

Make drugs legal and end the consequences of prohibition: the cartels in Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala.

Help rebuild the economies of those countries.

A border wall for 5 billion would be okay if it stopped there. But, withi Trump, it's a down payment, he's going to want a lot more down the road, and 50 billion for a long wall is a waste of money, given that the results will be not cost/benefit driven, but emotionally driven. The truth is, most undocs are visa overstays, and most of those are Canadians, and I don't see Trump whining about Canadians.

Permanent DACA solution and a path to citizenship that is fair to those who came in the old fashioned way.


Got a better idea?
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Yes, enforce the federal immigration laws as written and add mandatory E-Verify for the deduction of any (W-2 or 1099) employee direct labor costs to the federal income tax code. Allowing "job creators" to deduct 100% of the direct labor costs for using illegal immigrant labor is a moronic public policy and conflicts with federal immigration law.
 
ludin said:
No you don't understand what control of government means when you use that term. I explained this too you as well and you didn't get it.

So in the house all you need to control the house is a majority of the votes.
in the senate to really control the senate you need 60 votes which is almost impossible to get, but it has happened.

anything other than 60 votes in the senate requires you to come up with a compromised bill that can get 60 votes to over come a filibuster.
so while Republicans were in charge of the senate (a better term to use) they did not have full control of the senate as they didn't have 60 votes
required.

He has been asking for a wall since he became president. You don't seem to know what you are talking about.
yes so far you are not doing that well in these discussions as you ignore facts.
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Sounds to me like we need to demand that the filibuster be "fixed".

I advocate for the old style standing filibuster. Live on CNN.

If you want to stall our political process you need to stand before the people and explain why. Perfect opportunity, right? Everything stopped, everybody listening. Make your case. Maybe the people will agree with you.

Leaving it as is just facilitates working for donors instead of everybody.

I weary of peoples acceptance of bull**** from our elected leaders. Pointing at things they broke to excuse not fixing what is broken.

Not just sign something you printed on your computer.
 
ludin said:
there is a thing called a filibuster you should probably look it up.
you have been told this before but ignored it for some reason.
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Dems wouldn't filibuster in the senate if the repubs introduced sanity on the floor, but they never do, they are only interested in giving tax breaks to the super rich, making it more difficult to vote, making it more difficult to get an abortion, or making it more difficult for brown people to immigrate to America.

That's about it.
 
ludin said:
he isn't. that has been the rule since the 1930's with you FDR. It was expanded in the 80's by jimmy carter himself.
he deemed and so did the congress that certain federal workers were to be classified as important.

Meaning without them there would cause major issues and huge disruptions in day to day processes. see 80's traffic controller airstrike.
please know what you are talking about before making such ridiculous statements.
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How are they getting around the constitional amendment that states, quite clearly, that slavery is forbidden except as punishment for crime? Being forced to work without compensation or else is slavery. By definition.
 
What if...? said:
Sounds to me like we need to demand that the filibuster be "fixed".

I advocate for the old style standing filibuster. Live on CNN.

If you want to stall our political process you need to stand before the people and explain why. Perfect opportunity, right? Everything stopped, everybody listening. Make your case. Maybe the people will agree with you.

Leaving it as is just facilitates working for donors instead of everybody.

I weary of peoples acceptance of bull**** from our elected leaders. Pointing at things they broke to excuse not fixing what is broken.

Not just sign something you printed on your computer.
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The old style filibuster was being abused, didn't we have some senators just get up and read from Dr. Seuss ( Ted Cruz? ) the telephone book, etc?


It's now a joke and should be fixed.
 
OscarLevant said:
Dems wouldn't filibuster in the senate if the repubs introduced sanity on the floor, but they never do, they are only interested in giving tax breaks to the super rich, making it more difficult to vote, making it more difficult to get an abortion, or making it more difficult for brown people to immigrate to America.

That's about it.
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blah blah blah partistan hack doesn't make sense post.
have a nice day i don't entertain this nonsense.

come back when you actually have an argument or something logical to say.
 
ludin said:
This has already been explained to you i don't know why you still don't get it. i mean is it on purpose or what?
The bill was passed before they gained control of the house.

do you not understand that? The republican congress passed a budget bill it contained funding for the wall etc ...
the senate democrats filibustered the bill. this also lead by the way to the shut down that is currently going on.

this is about as plain and as simple as it gets. if you still don't get it then well it is on you.
I have answered it like 5 times now and you still either don't get it or can't understand it which is your issue and no one else's.
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Sounds like they kept quiet because they don't want the filibuster itself re-examined. They want to be able to use it when they want to with a few inches of ink on a printed out form.
 
OscarLevant said:
The old style filibuster was being abused, didn't we have some senators just get up and read from Dr. Seuss ( Ted Cruz? ) the telephone book, etc?


It's now a joke and should be fixed.
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Even at that they had to physically do it. Stand up for hours with no breaks. They changed it because that sucks for them. It is no fun.

Maybe we voters could require them to actually talk about what they are filibustering. Explain to us why they're shutting down the process. See if they can get us to apply pressure on our reps one way or the other.

As a concept its a good thing. An additional check on power. There can never be enough checks on power because power is addictive. The paper filibuster is not a check on power. It is an abuse thereof.
 
WCH said:
Really? Is all that necessary? [highly ineffective argument]

IMO Trump s trying to do what he thinks will improve the security and prosperity of this country. Something not attempted by past admins.
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Or his for the last two years.

Care to share with the class why you think that is?

Please, oh please, try to go with the "he was working on other things" tack.....that will be so awesome, because then I can slam dunk that **** with the simple point of, if those were the things he was working on, he obviously found them more pressing than the border, which has NOW all of a sudden become a crisis.

But I await YOUR answer.
 
ludin said:
blah blah blah partistan hack doesn't make sense post.
have a nice day i don't entertain this nonsense.

come back when you actually have an argument or something logical to say.
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I don't know why any of you are discussing Legislation that did not pass out of the 115th Congress. Its ancient history. The legislation did not pass. Frankly I am about as frustrated as I can get over people continuing to refer to Legislation that did not pass out of the 115th Congress or Bills not passed in 2013 or WHATEVER. Legislation that does not pass out of a Congress is a dead letter after that Congress closes. THE END of it!

For the record, that "Bill" was a CR that had New Funding, which is an Appropriation and therefore needs to go through an Appropriations Process, its not to be bootstrapped to a CR. Bootstrapping it to a CR was a last ditch, desperation effort, last gift from Ryan to Trump as Ryan was exiting. It was nothing more than that. DOA in the Senate and not just with Dem votes. In fact, Ryan had to bootstrap Disaster Relief funding to the Wall bootstrap just to get it out of the House. In other words, even in the GOP Majority, 115th House, the votes were not there for Wall funding.

At the end of the day it will be very interesting to see if Mitchie-poo allows DonDon to destroy Article 1 of the Constitution. Heck of legacy you are working on there Mitch.
 
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rrd
What if...? said:
God didn't put those imaginary lines on maps.

Pretty sure god gave everybody the right to go wherever they want to go.

Borders are a human construct.

So...
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Thanks for your honesty.


Most Democrats still will not admit that they are open-borders advocates.

But within the next 30 years as the constituency of the Democratic Party changes, it will finally come out loudly and proudly in favor of no more borders.
 
TheParser said:
rrd



Thanks for your honesty.


Most Democrats still will not admit that they are open-borders advocates.

But within the next 30 years as the constituency of the Democratic Party changes, it will finally come out loudly and proudly in favor of no more borders.
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I question the concept of borders itself.

Not the "open borders" nonsense you hear from conservative media.

More than anything, borders are about power. Wealth.

They serve those ends above all others. Create "others" that can be taken from, killed. So power heads can have more wealth and power.

They are a by product of our adoption of the sedentary lifestyle 12,000 years ago or so. Along with the management/political class and wage labor. As food became more available populations increased and it was necessary to take land from others to feed your population. And the fact it makes power heads feel good didn't help. More workers means more jewels for their pretty young wives. More trappings for themselves that serve as proof of their superiority, justifying the ever larger share of what everybody produces they claim for themselves.

These are the lessons of history that we refuse to learn.

Your current fixation is ephemeral nonsense designed to manipulate the gullible.
 
TheParser said:
rrd



Thanks for your honesty.


Most Democrats still will not admit that they are open-borders advocates.

But within the next 30 years as the constituency of the Democratic Party changes, it will finally come out loudly and proudly in favor of no more borders.
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That's because most Democrats aren't open borders advocates......they also aren't advocates for wasting money on a wall that isn't going to do what you guys keep contending it will do. The evidence is already there that walls don't prevent illegal immigration. That has to be the metric. Trying to prove the negative that not putting a wall in the middle of the desert means more people will cross there can't. What we do know, FOR A FACT, is that at legal ports of entry, both people and drugs still get into out country. That is indisputable. As such, its silly to keep saying the wall is the answer.

That all said, once again, believing that the wall isn't the answer is in no way to be mistaken as support for open borders and pro-illegal immigration.
 
ElChupacabra said:
I'm sure the BP, ICE, and the DEA would differ with that assessment. That we can find better ways to deal with these issues is something worth doing? Sure. Is a wall the way to do it? Not so much. As has been stated many times, the border wall doesn't fix the immigration issues this country faces if you're looking at it holistically. When you have over 40% of immigrants here illegally who didn't come through the southern border, the immigration crisis is hard to pitch as one purely at the border. A large percentage of drugs come through ports of entry, and cartels have been smuggling their product through in spite of barriers. So when someone wants to double down on a solution that doesn't solve the problem, they need to make an iron clad case that it's worth the money. "Walls work" won't do it for a lot of people; including the GOP or it would have passed when they had control of Congress. It's interesting this only became a crisis when they lost control of Congress.
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The "wall" isn't finished from the last time Congress voted for it. Let's start there while adding newest technological advances and upgrades.
 
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ludin said:
blah blah blah partistan hack doesn't make sense post.
have a nice day i don't entertain this nonsense.

come back when you actually have an argument or something logical to say.
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Obviously you can't refute the points raised, therefore it is you who has the weak argument.
 
bullseyelqcs said:
Or his for the last two years.

Care to share with the class why you think that is?

Please, oh please, try to go with the "he was working on other things" tack.....that will be so awesome, because then I can slam dunk that **** with the simple point of, if those were the things he was working on, he obviously found them more pressing than the border, which has NOW all of a sudden become a crisis.

But I await YOUR answer.
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With that ****ty little attitude, you get squat.

There's your ****ing answer.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Yes, enforce the federal immigration laws as written and add mandatory E-Verify for the deduction of any (W-2 or 1099) employee direct labor costs to the federal income tax code. Allowing "job creators" to deduct 100% of the direct labor costs for using illegal immigrant labor is a moronic public policy and conflicts with federal immigration law.
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So if we were debating this in Congress would you go for a compromise?
 
OscarLevant said:
Okay, solution:

Make drugs legal and end the consequences of prohibition: the cartels in Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala.

Help rebuild the economies of those countries.

A border wall for 5 billion would be okay if it stopped there. But, withi Trump, it's a down payment, he's going to want a lot more down the road, and 50 billion for a long wall is a waste of money, given that the results will be not cost/benefit driven, but emotionally driven. The truth is, most undocs are visa overstays, and most of those are Canadians, and I don't see Trump whining about Canadians.

Permanent DACA solution and a path to citizenship that is fair to those who came in the old fashioned way.


Got a better idea?
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Secure the border because while adopting those ideas [some very good ones] people, good and bad, are going to be rushing the gates.
 
WCH said:
Making us safer...for one.
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Yes there is nothing like refusing to pay our border guards. air traffic controllers and FBI agents to get them to protect us better. People work so much harder when they are not getting paid.
 
OscarLevant said:
That's nuts.


As an american, when the subject of Brexit or foreign affairs is brought up, I, as a citizen of the US and the World, have a right to talk about it.
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Doesn't mean it has any effect. People in Britain will be saying the same about you.
 
What if...? said:
Slavery is only legal as punishment for crime.

NOT for having a federal job.
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I love the deliberate ignorance of right America.

Dude, slavery may be illegal, but you are FORCING people to work without pay. Slavery.

You know who else uses unpaid workers? North Korea.

Nice club Trump has you in, I guess that's why he and Kim Jon Un "became lovers" in Trump's words
 
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