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Why can’t Trump make deals? No one trusts him anymore

Luckyone said:
I am starting to have serious doubts about your reasoning power. Do we resolve our issues by majority vote or not? If we do, then resolve it by vote and not by "hook or crook". The Republicans had full control of Congress and the Presidency and they could not get it done, doesn't that suggest we move on and accept that there is not the needed majority to get the wall built?

This is not about what one party thinks is right and wrong but about our Democracy.

As far as "giving up" by the Democrats. Are you really serious? Why doesn't Trump "give up" on his views if he has not been able to get the necessary votes. The Democrats had to give up the nation for 4 years when Trump won, why can't Trump do the same when the votes are against him? Nonetheless, giving up your principles is never an option.

As far as your comment about many being hurt by illegal immigration, can you or Trump guarantee that building the wall will stop the illegal immigration problem? If that cannot be guaranteed then there are many other options for reducing and ameliorating the problem that does not include hurting innocent people and spending money in an irrational way. The Democrats are more than willing to cooperate in the latter. They also want to work to reduce the immigration problem, just not in a way that does not make fiscal sense.

The reality as I see it is that Trump's ego just cannot accept losing and giving in on the wall would be a loss to him. He doesn't care about anyone (he is hurting over 800,000 Federal workers) but himself and his ego. This is not about what is best for the country, it is all about whether he wins or loses.
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1. If Republicans had full control the wall would be under construction. It's a terrible talking point from the left that has been repeated incessantly. Ignoring the fact that the Democrats have the power to block Bill's by a filibuster does fo your argument any favors.

2. How does building a wall threaten our democracy? I'm guessing you intended it to mean giving trump what he is demanding is s threat to our democracy but that is false. It is exactly how our democracy works. Each side gives the other side something they want. If your against that you should be outraged at every spending bill ever signed. None of them are clean Bill's. That's where the term pork belly spending came from.

3. Of course I can not guarantee that it will stop it. It's a ridiculous standard that your demanding and it's one nobody ever claimed. Can you guarantee that it wont reduce the amount of illeagal crossings? See I can play that game too. I prefer to have an honest conversation with you and discuss the differences in our opinions. I am interested in hearing your thoughts.

4. You say the Democrats are more than interested in increasing border security provided it's done in smart ways. I can respect that position. Ehstd smart and what is not is open to debate but its s reasonable position to hold. Here's what I dont understand about the Democrats in this dispute. If I am them I start passing clean border security Bill's and force the Senate and the presidents hand. They claim they want more drones and cameras send a bill to trump for only that and dare him not to sign it. Once all that stuff that's agreed on is passed they have a real argument to make that they believe in border security and if trump does not sign them they have a real argument that Trump is playing politics.

5. You claim this is about his ego. I dont know if thats true but I give him the benefit of doubt and take him at his word. I'm curious why you dont think this is about Pelosi's ego. She is just as stubborn.

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trouble13 said:
1. If Republicans had full control the wall would be under construction....
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No, if Trump had full control, the wall would be under construction


2. How does building a wall threaten our democracy? I'm guessing you intended it to mean giving trump what he is demanding is s threat to our democracy but that is false....
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Compromising your principals is never a good way to work and neither is appeasing a bully.
The 1930's taught us that
Trump threatens democracy in the USA almost daily.

It comes down to Trump's ego...he wants to build Trump's Wall
If he doesn't, if he is defeated it will probably be the end for him politically

In a way, Pelosi is already fighting the 2020 election


3. Of course I can not guarantee that it will stop it. It's a ridiculous standard that your demanding and it's one nobody ever claimed. Can you guarantee that it wont reduce the amount of illeagal crossings?
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My first thought about the wall was that it wasn't the worst idea ever...but when you look at the practicalities of it, it is a non-starter
There are just too many hurdles - like the fact that for much of the US-Mexico border, the lines runs through the deepest part of a river that is protected by a treaty the USA has with Mexico not to disrupt the flow of.


So where do you build this wall ?

You end up building it on US soil with US citizens on the "wrong" side of it.


4...here's what I dont understand about the Democrats in this dispute. If I am them I start passing clean border security Bill's and force the Senate and the presidents hand. They claim they want more drones and cameras send a bill to trump for only that and dare him not to sign it. Once all that stuff that's agreed on is passed they have a real argument to make that they believe in border security and if trump does not sign them they have a real argument that Trump is playing politics....
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But Trump wants, no NEEDS, his wall.

We can't let him have it.


5....why you dont think this is about Pelosi's ego. She is just as stubborn.
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God, I hope so !
 
trouble13 said:
1. If Republicans had full control the wall would be under construction. It's a terrible talking point from the left that has been repeated incessantly. Ignoring the fact that the Democrats have the power to block Bill's by a filibuster does fo your argument any favors.
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The requirements for approval in Congress have been set for many years in order for things to work well. As such, live with those. Filibuster has been used by both parties successfully on different occasions and is part of the rules, so you also have to live with it. This is not something the Democrats came up with.

2. How does building a wall threaten our democracy? I'm guessing you intended it to mean giving trump what he is demanding is s threat to our democracy but that is false. It is exactly how our democracy works. Each side gives the other side something they want. If your against that you should be outraged at every spending bill ever signed. None of them are clean Bill's. That's where the term pork belly spending came from.
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It is totally fiscally irresponsible and though fiscally irresponsible things may have been done in the past, continuing to do fiscally irresponsible things will lead to economic chaos. Already the Republicans passed a tax cut that added $1.5 trillion to our debt that mostly helped the rich and not the nation. Adding a wall that will not pay for itself, will not reduce the big problem which is drugs and crime, and is a sign of closed borders, which the Unites States has always been a pillar of opportunity for immigrants, is just plain wrong and fiscally irresponsible.

3. Of course I can not guarantee that it will stop it. It's a ridiculous standard that your demanding and it's one nobody ever claimed. Can you guarantee that it wont reduce the amount of illeagal crossings? See I can play that game too. I prefer to have an honest conversation with you and discuss the differences in our opinions. I am interested in hearing your thoughts.
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I can guarantee that a wall of the magnitude will be a negative sign of who we are and what we represent.

4. You say the Democrats are more than interested in increasing border security provided it's done in smart ways. I can respect that position. Ehstd smart and what is not is open to debate but its s reasonable position to hold. Here's what I dont understand about the Democrats in this dispute. If I am them I start passing clean border security Bill's and force the Senate and the presidents hand. They claim they want more drones and cameras send a bill to trump for only that and dare him not to sign it. Once all that stuff that's agreed on is passed they have a real argument to make that they believe in border security and if trump does not sign them they have a real argument that Trump is playing politics.
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You cannot tell that to the Democrats because you first have to tell Mitch McConnell to allow these bills to be brought to the floor so they can be voted on. McConnell alone is deciding what is voted on or not. The Democrats and all Republicans are at the mercy of McConnell. Why don't you send him a letter instead of blaming the Democrats that are trying to do a lot of that/

5. You claim this is about his ego. I dont know if thats true but I give him the benefit of doubt and take him at his word. I'm curious why you dont think this is about Pelosi's ego. She is just as stubborn.
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Here you are pulling my leg. This is a man that needs to be told every day by those around him how great he is.. He not only needs it but demands it. Remember his response to his penis size when he was running for election? He takes absolutely no responsibility for anything but says he "can do it all himself". If you cannot see a huge ego that needs to be fed daily then you are blind.

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Luckyone said:
The requirements for approval in Congress have been set for many years in order for things to work well. As such, live with those. Filibuster has been used by both parties successfully on different occasions and is part of the rules, so you also have to live with it. This is not something the Democrats came up with.
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That's true and I'm not one of the people who are claiming the Democrats are doing something they are not allowed to do.

They are excercising the powers granted to them under our constitution. On the same token so is our potus. His filibuster is the veto. He is excercising that power as he is entitled to do


It is totally fiscally irresponsible and though fiscally irresponsible things may have been done in the past, continuing to do fiscally irresponsible things will lead to economic chaos. Already the Republicans passed a tax cut that added $1.5 trillion to our debt that mostly helped the rich and not the nation. Adding a wall that will not pay for itself, will not reduce the big problem which is drugs and crime, and is a sign of closed borders, which the Unites States has always been a pillar of opportunity for immigrants, is just plain wrong and fiscally irresponsible.
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You changed your argument. You claimed him not signing a bill he does not agree with is a threat to our democracy. I argue it is exactly as our democracy was designed to operate. Congress does not have the authority to run roughshod over the potus anymore than he has the authority to run roughshod over him.

We are at a stalemate because they reached an impasse and government leadership is operating exactly as it was designed to. Nothing goes forward until they find common ground that both sides can live with. If they cant the people will decide at the polls for them.


I can guarantee that a wall of the magnitude will be a negative sign of who we are and what we represent.
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We represent equal opportunity and fairness. Allowing people to enter here illeagally and enjoy he fruits of those principles is the antithesis to what we represent

You cannot tell that to the Democrats because you first have to tell Mitch McConnell to allow these bills to be brought to the floor so they can be voted on. McConnell alone is deciding what is voted on or not. The Democrats and all Republicans are at the mercy of McConnell. Why don't you send him a letter instead of blaming the Democrats that are trying to do a lot of that/
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McConnell is up for reelection and he will be judged by his electorate.

Here you are pulling my leg. This is a man that needs to be told every day by those around him how great he is.. He not only needs it but demands it. Remember his response to his penis size when he was running for election? He takes absolutely no responsibility for anything but says he "can do it all himself". If you cannot see a huge ego that needs to be fed daily then you are blind.

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I'm not arguing that trump does not have a big ego. I'm arguing that your drawing a conclusion based on your personal bias against trump. You assume he wants to install barriers so he can say he won. That might be true but even if it is it can also be true that he is doing what he believes is the right thing to do. Both can be true at the same time.



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AlphaOmega said:
who do you think pays for all those needless arrests that shouldnt be happening at all?
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Are you really silly enough to believe that simply putting up a wall will stop people from trying to get here anyway?

If that is your reason for wanting a wall, you may as well jump on the no wall bandwagon and save the country some money, since either way, we are still gonna pay for arrests. Its not like they arent smuggling drugs and people across the border at the walled and manned US sanctioned crossing stations, so its pretty obvious that it doesnt work the way you think it does.
 
bullseyelqcs said:
Are you really silly enough to believe that simply putting up a wall will stop people from trying to get here anyway?

If that is your reason for wanting a wall, you may as well jump on the no wall bandwagon and save the country some money, since either way, we are still gonna pay for arrests. Its not like they arent smuggling drugs and people across the border at the walled and manned US sanctioned crossing stations, so its pretty obvious that it doesnt work the way you think it does.
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Walls have worked all over planet earth. Perhaps you can explain what your plan is to seal the border. Oh wait its nothing. You plan to do absolutely nothing except fight for sanctuary cities.
 
trouble13 said:
You changed your argument. You claimed him not signing a bill he does not agree with is a threat to our democracy. I argue it is exactly as our democracy was designed to operate. Congress does not have the authority to run roughshod over the potus anymore than he has the authority to run roughshod over him.
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No, because he caused/generated this crisis. He used this opportunity in an attempt to gain immoral leverage. He is using his position of power to get his way simply because he wants to. He should have continued to work through compromise instead of through bullying. Since when did our forefathers put this into the Constitution? They advocated for checks and balances and Trump is trying to go around that to get his way. He is not respecting the Constitution and our established laws.

We are at a stalemate because they reached an impasse and government leadership is operating exactly as it was designed to. Nothing goes forward until they find common ground that both sides can live with. If they cant the people will decide at the polls for them.
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We "may" be at a stalemate but we will know that until the immoral leverage is withdrawn. No one can or should try to compromise with a bully using ransom


We represent equal opportunity and fairness. Allowing people to enter here illegally and enjoy he fruits of those principles is the antithesis to what we represent
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I have no problem with this statement but then again this is a worldwide problem that affects most nations that are better off than others. World over population is one of the problems that causes this and that is not something we are going to be able to do much about other than address the root of the problem. Cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world makes us isolationists and that is not who we are. We are the country of immigrants. All of us, excluding the Native Americans, are immigrants and as such we should embrace the idea of legal immigration and not close ourselves and be isolationists.


McConnell is up for reelection and he will be judged by his electorate.
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Yes but these problems are pressing and we cannot afford to wait another 2 years.


I'm not arguing that trump does not have a big ego. I'm arguing that your drawing a conclusion based on your personal bias against trump. You assume he wants to install barriers so he can say he won. That might be true but even if it is it can also be true that he is doing what he believes is the right thing to do. Both can be true at the same time.
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Every move that Trump makes is staged for effect. Every move he has "so far" made is to assuage his base. He is not considering that he is the President for all Americans (over 350 million). He only considers moves that his base likes and his base has a lot of biases and are generally uncooperative, as has been clearly and publicly stated for many years. He has often changed his mind based on what Anne Coulter and Sean Hannity say. When he agreed with what the Democrats offered last year, which was $25 billion for border security and a wall in exchange for legal status for the dreamers, he immediately changed his mind when Anne Coulture criticized him saying "how can you give legal status to illegal aliens, even if the came here as children?".

The man has his ego and his base driving every decision he makes. The 250 million U.S. citizens that are not part of his base be damned. As such, why should they be willing to compromise if he is not willing to compromise to help all 350 million that he is supposed to be the President of?
 
AlphaOmega said:
Walls have worked all over planet earth. Perhaps you can explain what your plan is to seal the border. Oh wait its nothing. You plan to do absolutely nothing except fight for sanctuary cities.
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Way to try to speak for someone you know nothing about....

Want a plan, try this on for size:

A drone with an above average camera hovering in one spot and spinning the camera around at regular intervals could cover something like 10 miles of border. So one could state that without a single foot of wall ever having been constructed, the 2000 mile border could be covered by 600 drones, 1200 people flying them day and night, and 1500 agents could cover the same territory that a wall would cover for way less money. I’ll even prove it for ya…

An entire fleet of top of the line drones would cost us something around 6M bucks. A top of the line spy drone will cost you somewhere around 10K. That times 600 would be 6M. That would be 3 drones per 10 mile segment of border. That would give each one time to charge and be worker on while one was airborne all day, every day. Hell, we could go so far as to double that cost and have plenty of extras for the just in case kinda days and situations. Total cost so far = 12M.

Paying someone 30 bucks an hour to fly one of these things would be pretty good pay, given the actual work being done. 30 bucks an hour times 1200 people would be just over 69M dollars. That would be enough people to cover shifts 24 hours a day, 365 days a year and still account for vacations and other things. Total cost so far = 81M.

The average salary of a border patrol agent in Texas is 49000. There are a couple of districts where the pay is better that that. I’ll be generous and use the higher number of just under 57K. Making sure that there were 12000 agents (2 agent covering every 5 miles along the border would need 800 agents on shift all day every day) would have enough agents to work all day, every day with enough agents in reserve to cover any gaps in coverage that may come up at times. Cost to staff the border would come to 684M dollars. Total cost to secure the border at this point = 765M dollars.

Throw in 1600 70K dollar patrol vehicles, and with the added 112M dollars, we still haven’t gotten to a billion dollars to staff and vehicularly equip enough people to have a pair of officers every 5 miles along the border with aerial recon all day every day with no gaps in coverage.

Given the fact that the CBP budget was 14B dollars last year, they could literally QUADRUPLE the coverages I proposed and still come up short of the budget they used last year, to what I feel would actually be better results.

What was that you were saying about not having a plan?
 
AlphaOmega said:
Walls have worked all over planet earth. Perhaps you can explain what your plan is to seal the border. Oh wait its nothing. You plan to do absolutely nothing except fight for sanctuary cities.
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The above was a plan...now to dispute walls working all over the world.

The Great Wall of China didn't stop the Mongol Hordes.

Hadrians Wall didn't work either.

The wall in Turkey and the wall in Israel only work because of the threat of what will happen to you if you are caught entering either country illegally, not because of the wall itself. Unless you are on board with summarily incarcerating people indefinitely without due process, we are never going to be anything like either of those countries.....never mind the fact that apparently, even those threats don't stop people from still trying.
 
bullseyelqcs said:
Way to try to speak for someone you know nothing about....

Want a plan, try this on for size:

A drone with an above average camera hovering in one spot and spinning the camera around at regular intervals could cover something like 10 miles of border. So one could state that without a single foot of wall ever having been constructed, the 2000 mile border could be covered by 600 drones, 1200 people flying them day and night, and 1500 agents could cover the same territory that a wall would cover for way less money. I’ll even prove it for ya…

An entire fleet of top of the line drones would cost us something around 6M bucks. A top of the line spy drone will cost you somewhere around 10K. That times 600 would be 6M. That would be 3 drones per 10 mile segment of border. That would give each one time to charge and be worker on while one was airborne all day, every day. Hell, we could go so far as to double that cost and have plenty of extras for the just in case kinda days and situations. Total cost so far = 12M.

Paying someone 30 bucks an hour to fly one of these things would be pretty good pay, given the actual work being done. 30 bucks an hour times 1200 people would be just over 69M dollars. That would be enough people to cover shifts 24 hours a day, 365 days a year and still account for vacations and other things. Total cost so far = 81M.

The average salary of a border patrol agent in Texas is 49000. There are a couple of districts where the pay is better that that. I’ll be generous and use the higher number of just under 57K. Making sure that there were 12000 agents (2 agent covering every 5 miles along the border would need 800 agents on shift all day every day) would have enough agents to work all day, every day with enough agents in reserve to cover any gaps in coverage that may come up at times. Cost to staff the border would come to 684M dollars. Total cost to secure the border at this point = 765M dollars.

Throw in 1600 70K dollar patrol vehicles, and with the added 112M dollars, we still haven’t gotten to a billion dollars to staff and vehicularly equip enough people to have a pair of officers every 5 miles along the border with aerial recon all day every day with no gaps in coverage.

Given the fact that the CBP budget was 14B dollars last year, they could literally QUADRUPLE the coverages I proposed and still come up short of the budget they used last year, to what I feel would actually be better results.

What was that you were saying about not having a plan?
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uhhu...a drone gonna stop 15 thousand people. derp!
 
bullseyelqcs said:
The above was a plan...now to dispute walls working all over the world.

The Great Wall of China didn't stop the Mongol Hordes.

Hadrians Wall didn't work either.

The wall in Turkey and the wall in Israel only work because of the threat of what will happen to you if you are caught entering either country illegally, not because of the wall itself. Unless you are on board with summarily incarcerating people indefinitely without due process, we are never going to be anything like either of those countries.....never mind the fact that apparently, even those threats don't stop people from still trying.
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All of the border experts on the border say you are wrong. Are they incorrect given their experience compared to yours?
 
AlphaOmega said:
All of the border experts on the border say you are wrong. Are they incorrect given their experience compared to yours?
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Thats a pretty encompassing word you used there.

ALL of them DON'T say that. There are indeed some who have made the same claim that I did.....that more manpower and technology would work better than a physical wall would.

Hell, the Sheriff in Yuma proved my point......he increased the number on men working in the area, and without a single inch of added wall, they are experiencing 40% less illegal crossings.
 
AlphaOmega said:
All of the border experts on the border say you are wrong. Are they incorrect given their experience compared to yours?
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Here's an interesting short article for ya...you can read the whole thing at the link https://qz.com/1520651/border-patrol-agents-in-texas-showed-trump-why-his-wall-wont-work/ , but this passage was especially telling:

The US president made his pitch today (Jan. 10) at a roundtable on border security, flanked by mounds of seized drugs, cash, and weapons that he presented as evidence of the border crisis he claims his proposed physical barrier would stop.

Except many of those items were actually intercepted at legal ports of entry, not the in-between places Trump wants to wall off.
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AlphaOmega said:
do you know why its worse or not?
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Its not worse...at least for me. It goes to prove that more wall isn't going to stop people from trying to get into our country. Hell, they try to get **** like that into the country at legal points of entry....you know, where theres walls, armed guards, and ****loads of technology to stop them. Simply throwing a wall up in the middle of nowhere is gonna do exactly nothing to change that.

You're gonna have to step your game up if this is gonna continue.
 
bullseyelqcs said:
Its not worse...at least for me. It goes to prove that more wall isn't going to stop people from trying to get into our country. Hell, they try to get **** like that into the country at legal points of entry....you know, where theres walls, armed guards, and ****loads of technology to stop them. Simply throwing a wall up in the middle of nowhere is gonna do exactly nothing to change that.

You're gonna have to step your game up if this is gonna continue.
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Your point is that the stuff they are trying to get across at actual checkpoints means we dont need a wall because most bad actors try to get across where there is a higher likelyhood of getting caught at the checkpoints. Do you realize thats insane thinking?
 
AlphaOmega said:
Your point is that the stuff they are trying to get across at actual checkpoints means we dont need a wall because most bad actors try to get across where there is a higher likelyhood of getting caught at the checkpoints. Do you realize thats insane thinking?
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That wasn't my point at all.....but let me say, you beat the crap out of that strawman. He didn't stand a chance.

My point was that MORE wall isn't going to stop any of what is already coming through legal ports of entry, WHERE THE WALL AND MANPOWER ALREADY EXIST. To hear the President speak, the second we erect his ego boost, the United States isn't going to have to ever deal with another illegal alien in this country. That point is simply false, and you damn well know it. Whats insane is trying to argue that there is an iota of truth to that statement.

Oh.....and on another tack.....the biggest problem in this country regarding illegals isn't people crossing our borders illegally. Its people who are overstaying visas....you know, like a lot of those people the President employs at his resorts and the like. A wall isn't going to do anything to prevent that....but you know what will? More technology with people tracking and following those people so that they leave when they are supposed to, or that they go through the proper process of getting thier visa extended.

Care to take a stab at telling the class how a wall helps with the real problem?
 
Mycroft said:
shrug...

Takes two to tango.

Trump has been in Washington almost the whole shutdown open to negotiating. Where has Nancy been? Hawaii, trying to skate out to various countries...etc. Oh...and she flat out said "No".
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She said the same thing as the Republican Congress has for the last 2 years. 75% of them said no to the wall too. He's now trying to extort the Democrats to go along with his ridiculous failed policy to embarrass them. It will fail.

The USA TODAY Network asked the 534 members of the House and Senate whether they support the $1.6 billion down payment approved by the House and found fewer than 25% of Republicans willing to stand up for the plan.
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https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2017/09/20/trump-border-wall-survey-congress-republicans-billions/640196001/
 
bullseyelqcs said:
That wasn't my point at all.....but let me say, you beat the crap out of that strawman. He didn't stand a chance.

My point was that MORE wall isn't going to stop any of what is already coming through legal ports of entry, WHERE THE WALL AND MANPOWER ALREADY EXIST. To hear the President speak, the second we erect his ego boost, the United States isn't going to have to ever deal with another illegal alien in this country. That point is simply false, and you damn well know it. Whats insane is trying to argue that there is an iota of truth to that statement.

Oh.....and on another tack.....the biggest problem in this country regarding illegals isn't people crossing our borders illegally. Its people who are overstaying visas....you know, like a lot of those people the President employs at his resorts and the like. A wall isn't going to do anything to prevent that....but you know what will? More technology with people tracking and following those people so that they leave when they are supposed to, or that they go through the proper process of getting thier visa extended.

Care to take a stab at telling the class how a wall helps with the real problem?
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Straw man ...incrrect usage #2 today.
 
Are there any Trump voters here that would give Trump their life savings for five years?
 
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