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Is This The End? Trump Suborned Perjury With Michael Cohen's Testimony to Congress

NebraskaFtball said:
That’s not entirely accurate either from a legal standpoint. People who have lied in the past are used all of the time by Prosecutors, and successfully secure convictions, using their testimony. Quantity, consistency, and a myriad of other factors play a role.
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Name one case where all the witnesses had lied to a court or congress and they still found the person guilty. There is none. That is why credible witnesses are required. There is no court case where a lawyer would use only witnesses that have lied to officials.

If the courts only allowed people to testify who had never told a lie in their life, we would never have testimony from anyone, ever.
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I didn't say just lie, I said lie like Cohen has to officials. There is a difference between lying about someone not being fat and then lying to police, congress, a judge or other officials about something.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
None of the 45 demorats in the Senate voted to convict Clinton for that (very similar?) crime - I suspect a similar outcome if the only charge is lying or obstruction.
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The difference is that Clinton was more of an asset than a liability to both his party, as well the country. Most of the public disapproved of the way one investigator with an open political vendetta was allowed to probe into every aspect of his life, resorting to writing a report that read like a porno in order to embarrass him for his sexual activities.

Trump is a PITA to everyone around him and while I wouldn't bet on him being removed from office, I wouldn't be shocked either.
 
Another thing worth noting is that what we see in the public domain is a fraction of what Mueller has. Every time somebody screws up for example, it is proven again that Mueller has much more than what is in the public domain at this point.

There are those that try to make the argument that it is all out there. Ah-huh!
 
Praxas said:
Here’s the thing, yes it is really bad for Trump IF they can prove Cohen’s claims to be true.
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That's the thing you missed... They did NOT learn it from Cohen. Mueller had already known this from OTHER sources. Cohen only CONFIRMED what was already known from other sources.

Reread this quote from the OP:

The special counsel’s office learned about Trump’s directive for Cohen to lie to Congress through interviews with multiple witnesses from the Trump Organization and internal company emails, text messages, and a cache of other documents. Cohen then acknowledged those instructions during his interviews with that office.
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ttwtt78640 said:
None of the 45 demorats in the Senate voted to convict Clinton for that (very similar?) crime - I suspect a similar outcome if the only charge is lying or obstruction.
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Correct, they ignored it. And most likely the senate Republicans will ignore it too. However, if Trump is guilty of obstruction, I'd be happy to see his pardon powers (including for himself) go bye bye when the house would impeach him. Also, that would most likely go to the detriment of the senate Republicans to do that for later elections.
 
MovingPictures said:
The difference is that Clinton was more of an asset than a liability to both his party, as well the country. Most of the public disapproved of the way one investigator with an open political vendetta was allowed to probe into every aspect of his life, resorting to writing a report that read like a porno in order to embarrass him for his sexual activities.

Trump is a PITA to everyone around him and while I wouldn't bet on him being removed from office, I wouldn't be shocked either.
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I see that you favor equal application of the laws, and following precedent, unless politically disadvantageous.
 
I think it's just a matter of time now. Mueller has too much info and Trump has been a liar and crook for 50 years.
 
Slavister said:
That's the thing you missed... They did NOT learn it from Cohen. Mueller had already known this from OTHER sources. Cohen only CONFIRMED what was already known from other sources.
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I clarified this later as well. If the other sources were like Cohen and lied to officials, than it still holds true that won't hold water to obstruction charges on Trump. Again, don't get me wrong I DO believe that Trump most likely did this and that he is guilty of obstruction. I'm only going by what can be proven.
 
Chomsky said:
It is the end for me, but I've been getting there for a while.

Up to recently, I've been cautiously laying in the "wait for the report" category. But as of late, I've given up. I'm throwing in the towel. Trump and his situation and problems, en total, are just too large and numerous for me to deal with any more. Besides all these things we've seen these past two years, I see continuous public obstruction (of justice) along with constant attacks on our democratic institutions, not the least of which are the attacks on our law enforcement.

I now believe impeachment is the only solution. Trump is incorrigible. I now support the Dem's move to impeach Trump, even though they may suffer negative political implications (or not!). There's just times you've got to do what's right, and to me it's now looking like impeachment is becoming the right thing to do.

I blame this problem not just on Trump, but on the Republican party. Trump could possibly be reigned-in by Congressional legislation and other actions. Unfortunately we'll never know if it will work, since the Republicans won't try it, which leaves only the drastic (but right now likely to fail) step of having to resort to impeachment.
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Good post. It is such a tough spot that Trump and the GOP have placed our entire nation in. A pox on them for this really.
 
NebraskaFtball said:
All fair points. I have never personally believed Impeachment was a realistic possibility. And 2020 would be the opportunity to remove this stain from our collective memories. But things are changing potentially. If the trajectory continues to get worse and worse for Trump, at some point the GOP will evaluate its Congressional electoral chances for 2020 and may have no choice but to cut bait. If they see Trump, even with his vocal minority base, as more of an albatross than a boon, all bets may be off.
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Standing behind a president who has been proven as having suborned perjury?
Hmmm...if that is the hill that Republicans choose to die on, let em die, I say...and I say it with no joy, because as much as I am a liberal Democrat, I do actually believe it is necessary to have what Arlo Guthrie once termed "a loyal opposition".
But that opposition is nothing if it sells its honor, decency and birthright for a handful of lentils. (Genesis 25:34)

By the way, The Washington Post has now signed on with this story.
 
GDViking said:
And if Impeached and the Senate does not convictt they relinquish any authority they have by condoning lying to the house and Senate under oath...
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True. But the question is, do they care? Does the GOP really care as long as it means placing their party over country? Does their base really care?
 
OscarLevant said:
The damn that is the support in the Senate and Congress for Trump is beginning to crack.

It is clear now that Trump's days are numbered, and that number is far shorter than two years
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Maybe. We shall see. If anything is certain, the vast majority of the Republicans in the Senate believe in party first, personal political power second, country a distant third. Maybe interchange the first two even.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
None of the 45 demorats in the Senate voted to convict Clinton for that (very similar?) crime - I suspect a similar outcome if the only charge is lying or obstruction.
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I tend to agree with you here. I was just speaking from a strictly legal standpoint. But yes, the likelihood of the GOP convicting Trump is slim. Although, Clinton had much higher approval ratings at the time, so there is a difference.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
If the alleged business relationship was legal and occurred during the campaign then how does that indicate Trump had violated his oath of office?
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As you well know from your later statements, the issue is directing an underling to lie under oath to Congress.



ttwtt78640 said:
I doubt that perjury (even if presented as obstruction of justice)
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What do you mean "even if"... ? According to Trump's choice for AG:

Klobuchar: The President persuading a person to commit perjury would be obstruction, is that right?
Barr: Well, yes. Well, any person who persuades another to -- yeah."
Klobuchar: "You also said that a President or any person convincing a witness to change testimony would be obstruction, is that right?
Barr: Yes."
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ttwtt78640 said:
I doubt ... obstruction of justice ... alone will be the magic crime which gets a sitting POTUS impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate.
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It's sad if obstruction of justice is no problem for a POTUS. You think he should be above the law? Or just that the Senate Republicans would make him above the law?
 
jnug said:
If I were weighing out possibilities I would actually put more weight to Trump cutting a deal close to the end of his term that grants him immunity, not from all prosecution but that spans the period up to 2020 for him and his kids for resigning from office over Impeach and Remove possibilities.

If he does not cut a deal, he and his kids are going to spend the rest of their lives fighting off criminal prosecutions and likely losing a good many of them. Even Statute of Limitations won't save them from that fate unless Donald cuts a deal.
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I've also long thought that this would be a real possibility to how this ends. The criminal actions are too voluminous at this point to just go away. The filings in SDNY alone show that Prosecutors are legally required to act on Trump's criminal conspiracy felonies once out of office. I would not be surprised if sealed indictments are already filed as a result, to pause the SOL.

And in the end, I also fully believe that the Trump Empire will be picked apart piece-by-piece until just a shell remains. They will have AG's across the country, in particular in NY, going after them for the next couple of decades.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
I see that you favor equal application of the laws, and following precedent, unless politically disadvantageous.
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I see you like to read things into peoples messages that they never even come close to saying. :screwy
 
Chomsky said:
It is the end for me, but I've been getting there for a while.

Up to recently, I've been cautiously laying in the "wait for the report" category. But as of late, I've given up. I'm throwing in the towel. Trump and his situation and problems, en total, are just too large and numerous for me to deal with any more. Besides all these things we've seen these past two years, I see continuous public obstruction (of justice) along with constant attacks on our democratic institutions, not the least of which are the attacks on our law enforcement.

I now believe impeachment is the only solution. Trump is incorrigible. I now support the Dem's move to impeach Trump, even though they may suffer negative political implications (or not!). There's just times you've got to do what's right, and to me it's now looking like impeachment is becoming the right thing to do.
Click to expand...

I've been saying all along that Trump is the symptom and not the problem.
A portion of this nation's voters decided that a manufactured reality was worth more than actual reality, and they are now so addicted that they view a crook as a messiah, just so that they can keep the euphoria going.
I don't say this to mean that Hillary Clinton was "a better reality"...you can throw Hillary to the wolves all you want.
I say it because the entire Trump campaign was based on complete and utter fabrication and manipulation.

It is one thing for an opposition party candidate to be elected and to force unwelcome and unpopular positions on the nation because of deeply heartfelt ideas which have some basis in reality, it is another thing to cobble together a criminal network of hostile adversaries who work only to enrich said leader at the expense of the safety and security of that nation while that leader hides behind a patchwork quilt woven entirely of lies.

Chomsky said:
I blame this problem not just on Trump, but on the Republican party. Trump could possibly be reigned-in by Congressional legislation and other actions. Unfortunately we'll never know if it will work, since the Republicans won't try it, which leaves only the drastic (but right now likely to fail) step of having to resort to impeachment.
Click to expand...

The appropriate term here is "constitutional crisis".
In this case, we're not looking at an "operational crisis", where the Constitution has no recommended solution for a problem, we're looking at a "crisis of fidelity", where the Constitution does indeed have a recommendation for action, and yet the legislature is unwilling to take the needed steps to do the right and honorable thing.
Political scientist Keith Whittington describes it as a set of “circumstances in which the constitutional order itself is failing.”

The result is "constitutional rot".
A termite infested building might stand for decades after the bugs have set in but one day your Aunt Claire might go crashing through the kitchen floor and wind up head over heels in the basement among the rotted timbers.

A host body cannot restore life after a parasitic infection has hollowed out and destroyed the organs.
If we do not apply prophylactic measures, the host body succumbs needlessly for want of antibiotics and one reaches the tipping point where it is too late, and the victim dies.

Termite infested wood does not grow solid again.
Rancid meat doesn't return to freshness.

Fidelity can be restored.
Rot however, cannot.
 
NebraskaFtball said:
Good post. It is such a tough spot that Trump and the GOP have placed our entire nation in. A pox on them for this really.
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Agreed. But I place the majority of blame on the GOP. Congress is the Constitutionally designated body to reign-in wayward acting Presidents.

However by extension, it is probably fair to ultimate lay the responsibility on Trump supporters themselves. The GOP representatives (both House & Senate) are largely representing the will of their voters. So unfortunately, we now have a minority of the electorate dictating policy to the majority. A "tyranny of the minority over the majority", so to speak. And the result - of course - is massive political discord!
 
jnug said:
If I were weighing out possibilities I would actually put more weight to Trump cutting a deal close to the end of his term that grants him immunity, not from all prosecution but that spans the period up to 2020 for him and his kids for resigning from office over Impeach and Remove possibilities.

If he does not cut a deal, he and his kids are going to spend the rest of their lives fighting off criminal prosecutions and likely losing a good many of them. Even Statute of Limitations won't save them from that fate unless Donald cuts a deal.
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No deal he cuts will spare him from state prosecutions. It's not that I don't believe lawmakers won't try to cut such a deal, it's that I doubt that states like New York would be willing to sign on, and New York would be backed up by a helluva support network of other states.

The Southern District of New York isn't going to drop their planned criminal prosecution of Trump and his family for nothing.
Trump, and quite possibly a large part of his family, will go to prison.
 
haymarket said:
For a full third of the American people there is no evidence... no facts .... no reality in any way that will shake their belief in Trump. They are immune to any bad news about their idol and will resist it for all time.
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Religious fundamentalism is a form of mental illness. And yet there does not seem to be a term which adequately describes the political rather than religious form of fundamentalism, and yet both seem identical save for worship of an elected tyrant instead of a mythical prophet.

And both bear a striking resemblance to hardcore drug addiction.
 
Praxas said:
Name one case where all the witnesses had lied to a court or congress and they still found the person guilty. There is none. That is why credible witnesses are required. There is no court case where a lawyer would use only witnesses that have lied to officials.
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There are plenty of cases actually, where known perjurers were afforded testimony and convictions secured. Again, it goes to quantity, consistency, and a host of other variables.

Davis v. Alaska, 415 U.S. 308 (1974)
DeMarco v. United States 928 F.2d 1074, 1077 (11th Cir. 1991)
United States v. O’Keefe, 128 F.3d 885, 894-95 (5th Cir. 1997)
Robinson v. Arvonio, 27 F.3d 877, 886 (3d Cir. 1994)
United States ex rel. Regina v. LaVallee, 504 F.2d 580, 583 (2d Cir. 1974)
United States v. Sanfilippo, 564 F.2d 176 (5th Cir. 1977)

It goes on and on and on.



I didn't say just lie, I said lie like Cohen has to officials. There is a difference between lying about someone not being fat and then lying to police, congress, a judge or other officials about something.
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That is a fair point. I misread your post. Yes, if every single corroborating witness had lied with such quantity and vigor as Cohen has/had, then those witnesses too would have the same credibility problem. But I have a hard time believing all of the corroborating witnesses the SCO has interviewed regarding this issue have all perjured themselves in the same way as Cohen did. Or else we would have seen additional indictments by now.
 
NebraskaFtball said:
That is not true in the eyes of our legal statutes though. I do understand your take however. But legally speaking, obstruction of justice does not have to be in respect to covering up a crime.

See Bill Clinton and his obstruction of justice (perjury) as an example. There was no crime with Monica. Yet plenty of Republicans voted to convict him for obstruction of justice in the Senate, and rightfully so in my opinion.
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Yip, I agree Clinton lied at times it was just stupid to.

Yes I put a joint to my lips but I didn't inhale...

Proper answer, of course I tried pot I was young, in college, and it was offered to me, next question.

Did you have sex with that woman?

Proper answer, none of your ****ing business, that is between myself, my wife and that woman.

Next question.

A little honesty could have saved us all a lot of trouble...
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
I've been saying all along that Trump is the symptom and not the problem.
A portion of this nation's voters decided that a manufactured reality was worth more than actual reality, and they are now so addicted that they view a crook as a messiah, just so that they can keep the euphoria going.
I don't say this to mean that Hillary Clinton was "a better reality"...you can throw Hillary to the wolves all you want.
I say it because the entire Trump campaign was based on complete and utter fabrication and manipulation.

It is one thing for an opposition party candidate to be elected and to force unwelcome and unpopular positions on the nation because of deeply heartfelt ideas which have some basis in reality, it is another thing to cobble together a criminal network of hostile adversaries who work only to enrich said leader at the expense of the safety and security of that nation while that leader hides behind a patchwork quilt woven entirely of lies.



The appropriate term here is "constitutional crisis".
In this case, we're not looking at an "operational crisis", where the Constitution has no recommended solution for a problem, we're looking at a "crisis of fidelity", where the Constitution does indeed have a recommendation for action, and yet the legislature is unwilling to take the needed steps to do the right and honorable thing.
Political scientist Keith Whittington describes it as a set of “circumstances in which the constitutional order itself is failing.”

The result is "constitutional rot".
A termite infested building might stand for decades after the bugs have set in but one day your Aunt Claire might go crashing through the kitchen floor and wind up head over heels in the basement among the rotted timbers.

A host body cannot restore life after a parasitic infection has hollowed out and destroyed the organs.
If we do not apply prophylactic measures, the host body succumbs needlessly for want of antibiotics and one reaches the tipping point where it is too late, and the victim dies.

Termite infested wood does not grow solid again.
Rancid meat doesn't return to freshness.

Fidelity can be restored.
Rot however, cannot.
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An absolutely excellent post CS, as is not unusual from you.

I call the effect we are seeing with Trump as, "the tyranny of the minority over the majority". But you additionally bring-in a critical and paramount facet: The irreal nature of the Trump Presidency. This Presidency is essentially a Reality Show, which might not be so unexpected given the host.

But there are some recent good signs. Currently the majority of Americans see through trump's "we needing a wall charade" (according to recent polls). And the 2018 election showed a rebuff of Trump & his policies.
 
NebraskaFtball said:
That is a fair point. I misread your post. Yes, if every single corroborating witness had lied with such quantity and vigor as Cohen has/had, then those witnesses too would have the same credibility problem. But I have a hard time believing all of the corroborating witnesses the SCO has interviewed regarding this issue have all perjured themselves in the same way as Cohen did. Or else we would have seen additional indictments by now.
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I doubt it as well, but always worry about it because if it is found that all witnesses have credibility issues due to lying to officials than there will be a problem. I don't think Mueller is an idiot or partisan, so I think the other sources should be fine.
 
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