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This Gives Trump The Power To Declare A National Emergency

Visbek said:
lol

Nope, sorry, most of what I wrote is fact. It's not my problem if you can't accept basic facts about the southern border.
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The basic fact about the southern border is that tens of thousands of immigrants cross it illegally every year.
 
Moderate Right said:
I don't give one damn rat's ass for anyone who comes here illegally. They can all die for all I care. It's disgusting that someone can cross the border illegally and then claim asylum as if they really came here legally. That needs to be changed. If you want to come here then you come in through the front door, not the back door.
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You do also realize that crossing the border illegally is not a criminal infraction, right? It is a civil infraction. I'd wager a guess that I am more hard-line in my illegal immigration views than you (albeit not lacking empathy in the same way for the plight of my fellow humans) but the reality is that building a wall along the southern border to somehow protect us from asylum seekers is simply absurd.

If you really want to address the illegal immigration issue, vote out of office all of the rural Republican Congress-critters that protect a key voting bloc among their constituency that desperately relies on cheap, undocumented labor. Then pass legislation that seeks to impose substantial punitive measures on all those caught hiring undocumented labor. Make it big and impactful. First convicted offense, a $500,000 fine, asset seizures, and 2 years in prison. A second convicted offense, $1,000,000 fine and 10 years in prison. Something to that effect.

Take away the primary motivator for coming here illegally, and watch the issue begin to be resolved.
 
Moderate Right said:
I'm saying that we have miles and miles of border barriers already, put up by both Democratic and Republican presidents. If we could put barriers up before, what's wrong with finishing the job? Why did we put them up in the first place? Why did Obama put more up? Why can't Trump put ANY up now?
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They seem to have become immoral lately.
 
Moderate Right said:
The basic fact about the southern border is that tens of thousands of immigrants cross it illegally every year.
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Put money into e-verify. Mandate that it be used. Those that knowingly employ illegals should be thrown in jail and their property seized.

The immigration issue will be taken care of real quick.

Probably not how a lot of people would like it taken care of... but there will be solutions.
 
Moderate Right said:
That's just the point. This has been going on for decades and the left could care less about putting a stop to it. Funny how the left have been complaining about gun violence (which has been going on for decades) and yet they want to pass gun control legislation in an attempt to stop it but they don't want to do one damn thing to stop illegal immigration, shrugging their shoulders and declaring that it has been going on for decades so why do anything?
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Funny how the right is complaining about immigration and yet have passed amnesty multiple times in the past and they don't actually want to do one damn thing to stop illegal immigration when they do have the majority. Guess who works on all those right leaning farms in the midwest?

The left can also complain about gun violence but by your reckoning it would be okay for them to declare a national emergency about guns because in 2018 almost 40,000 people died directly from gun violence. Have 40,000 people died yet from illegal immigrants?
 
Moderate Right said:
We have walls already. Why were they put up in the first place? Why is it that Obama could put up more walls but Trump can't put up any? If walls don't work then why don't we tear down all of the walls that we currently have?
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Because they're already paid for... :shrug:

Why are you guys so in love with walls? Why not look into ways to make the Mexican desire to work in America work for you? Invest that money into work programs that allow you keep tabs on who is in your country without being a citizen, and get some tax money from them? Make it easy, so only the only people that will attempt to come over illegally will be the type of person you want to keep out, vs. people who just want to work?

Seems like you can get a better ROI in anything OTHER than building a big dumb wall.
 
Moderate Right said:
I'm saying that we have miles and miles of border barriers already, put up by both Democratic and Republican presidents. If we could put barriers up before, what's wrong with finishing the job? Why did we put them up in the first place? Why did Obama put more up? Why can't Trump put ANY up now?
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Strategically placed barriers are fine. But as we have learned from those barriers, they can be easily breached, and are a solution to a problem that solves nothing. The ROI on the investment is simply not there. You do know that the existing barriers in place have been breached over 10,000 times since construction, right? What we have learned from the construction of the existing barriers is that barriers do not solve the problem. It is an antiquated non-solution to a very real problem. It is something designed to make scared people feel less scared. Nothing more.
 
Jezcoe said:
I would be for $5 billion to be spent on the infrastructure to handle the chaos that the President has caused at the border.
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Absolutely. I'm even fine with more than that being spent to actually look for real solutions to these issues. Increase asylum judges. Address visa overstays. Punish employers who are hiring undocumented labor.
 
Moderate Right said:
I don't give one damn rat's ass for anyone who comes here illegally. They can all die for all I care. It's disgusting that someone can cross the border illegally and then claim asylum as if they really came here legally. That needs to be changed. If you want to come here then you come in through the front door, not the back door.
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You can solve this problem. Write your representatives. Tell them to amend the Refugee Act of 1980, and to abrogate treaties the US ratified. Note that anyone who migrates illegally can die for all you care. Tell them to ignore the example of Raul Wallenberg who used illegal methods to help Jews. Suggest deporting all the Cubans and Vietnamese who may have crossed borders illegally when they ran away, as they too, can die for all you care.

Then travel to Central American towns and call meetings to explain the new rules to would be migrants who have been threatened with death by drug gangs. As an alternative, rent a plane and drop leaflets on migrant caravans with your cheerful message. Tell them they can die for all you care if they cross the border illegally. The drug gangs will back your play.

You will join the ranks of those who rejected the Jews traveling on the ship the St. Louis that was forced to return to Germany and the holocaust. I suppose some of those who prevented it from landing in the US and elsewhere said "they can die for all I care."

They did.

As an alternative, you can read history, particularly about how and why the current methods of refugee protection were set up. This is a complex issue, not really the sort of thing someone like, say Trump, can grasp. But I have higher hopes for you.
 
NebraskaFtball said:
Absolutely. I'm even fine with more than that being spent to actually look for real solutions to these issues. Increase asylum judges. Address visa overstays. Punish employers who are hiring undocumented labor.
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Yep.... we have to fix our own system, which a lot of times is arbitrary and cruel before we place blame on people coming and searching for a better life.
 
Moderate Right said:
The laws are disgusting.
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I find xenophobia disgusting. Stalemate, I guess...


I don't need an education.
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Apparently you do, since you do not understand that it is the law that determines whether or not one is an "illegal immigrant," or what Trump is trying to do with his authoritarian nativist appeals.


It is the US that needs an education. This is why we need a wall, so that people can't enter illegally and then try claiming that it was legal afterall.
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lol

Border walls don't change the law, or deter immigrants, or eliminate human rights obligations. And ultimately, you did nothing special to become an American -- you were just lucky enough to be born in the US. You might want to remember that, the next time you call someone "disgusting" because they want to escape grinding poverty and/or violence.

In fact, building walls and strict border enforcement actually increased the size of the undocumented immigrant community in the US. Before we had strict borders, migrants would come to the US for a few months, work, and go home. (This is known as "circular flow.") As the border becomes harder to cross, migrants don't go home, instead they stay in the US. Congratulations, you have now learned about unintended consequences. I told you that you could benefit from some education....

And again, most undocumented immigrants are flying in from Asia and overstaying visas. If you are terrified of brown people crossing the southern border, then you're around 10 years behind the times.
 
Jezcoe said:
Yep.... we have to fix our own system, which a lot of times is arbitrary and cruel before we place blame on people coming and searching for a better life.
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Indeed. Especially when we have such incentives awaiting them here in steady employment with a wage that is more than comfortable for them.
 
NebraskaFtball said:
Indeed. Especially when we have such incentives awaiting them here in steady employment with a wage that is more than comfortable for them.
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The thing is that they do overall add valuable labor to this country. Yes they do sell their labor at a deep discount, but if the entire process was legitimized, then the wage would increase, as would the standard of living.

It would also reduce the incentive for a black market labor economy... and in my opinion everything is better when out in the open for all to see.
 
Jezcoe said:
The thing is that they do overall add valuable labor to this country. Yes they do sell their labor at a deep discount, but if the entire process was legitimized, then the wage would increase, as would the standard of living.

It would also reduce the incentive for a black market labor economy... and in my opinion everything is better when out in the open for all to see.
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I absolutely agree. Of course there is a flip side here as well. If we make the process transparent, wages go up as they become documented workers, then Farmers and the Ag Industry begin to complain about their labor costs cutting into their bottom line, and next thing you know, Farm subsidies begin to grow out of control. On the whole though, I believe it is still worth it, as we need everything above board. We can address whether subsidizing the agriculture industry is in the national interest at a later point.
 
NebraskaFtball said:
I absolutely agree. Of course there is a flip side here as well. If we make the process transparent, wages go up as they become documented workers, then Farmers and the Ag Industry begin to complain about their labor costs cutting into their bottom line, and next thing you know, Farm subsidies begin to grow out of control. On the whole though, I believe it is still worth it, as we need everything above board. We can address whether subsidizing the agriculture industry is in the national interest at a later point.
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That is a sticky thing. Giving even more money to large consolidated agro business? Yeah... not so into that.

Keeping food prices cheap... into that.

I don't like central planning and I am not hot on large ag subsidies... but I do realize that our modern food economy is built on dumping common money into our food supply.

Of course it might become all moot and the push from higher wages just automates the process even more and then those jobs go away also, leaving abundance and plenty... enough for our Socialist Paradise. :2razz:
 
IDK why some of these damn farm subsidies aren't aimed at getting the farms "up to code" on legal migrnt workes. I don't think it's a bad bit of "socialissm" to help these farmers build andmaintain adequate housing and services for their migrant workforce, ending their need for illegal workers. Seems money better spent than on some fence. Fence works in urban areas, is largely a waste out in the mdddle of nowhere.
 
Jezcoe said:
That is a sticky thing. Giving even more money to large consolidated agro business? Yeah... not so into that.

Keeping food prices cheap... into that.

I don't like central planning and I am not hot on large ag subsidies... but I do realize that our modern food economy is built on dumping common money into our food supply.

Of course it might become all moot and the push from higher wages just automates the process even more and then those jobs go away also, leaving abundance and plenty... enough for our Socialist Paradise. :2razz:
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Are...are we actually debating an issue right now, and not reality or fighting some Trump sycophant? Where is the fainting couch?

I understand the desire to keep food costs low, but artificially propping up the agriculture industry seems antithetical to our capitalistic society. The problem is we have gotten everyone hooked, like on drugs. The ag businesses, farms, the consumers, the retail outlets, the distribution networks, everything along the supply chain and in between has the expectations set now. How do you break everyone of this addiction? Cold turkey? Slow tapering off? Knowing DC, the answer is give them all more of my money.

As to the higher wages driving more towards automation, that seems like a given. But I'm not sure that wage increases are going to speed this process up any more than advances in technology already have been.
 
CriticalThought said:
Oh my God! A caravan! Let's declare an emergency to fund a 15 year infastructure project.

Lol. You realize these folks TURN THEMSELVES IN at the border. They are generally asylum seekers.
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They are invaders - plain and simple.

By "seeking" (ha ha ha) asylum, they can circumvent all the rules and laws that apply to a regular immigrant, including handing over $$$ to the US government for the privilege of entering the country.
 
NebraskaFtball said:
Are...are we actually debating an issue right now, and not reality or fighting some Trump sycophant? Where is the fainting couch?

I understand the desire to keep food costs low, but artificially propping up the agriculture industry seems antithetical to our capitalistic society. The problem is we have gotten everyone hooked, like on drugs. The ag businesses, farms, the consumers, the retail outlets, the distribution networks, everything along the supply chain and in between has the expectations set now. How do you break everyone of this addiction? Cold turkey? Slow tapering off? Knowing DC, the answer is give them all more of my money.

As to the higher wages driving more towards automation, that seems like a given. But I'm not sure that wage increases are going to speed this process up any more than advances in technology already have been.
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I am not sure how one breaks or pulls back from a system that was put into place in the early 20th Century. Disposing of it would be detrimental to not only our food supply, but the food supply of the world.

The US is able to grow food abundantly and cheaply. We got geographically lucky in that sense. One thing that would have helped is the markets that were going to be opened up by the TPP... as flawed a deal as that was... it placed US Ag businesses in prime position to capitalize on Pacific Rim Trade outside of China. But can't unscramble that egg.

I am going to have to think on this a little. I don't want to go beyond just the spitballing phase of policy discussion on maybe a way to deal with a Ag sector that is not reliant on cheap labor and large subsidies.

I think that maybe a mixture of free market and subsidized money ( within the limits of the WTO of course) might be a path to the answer.
 
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