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[W:270]President Trump makes a compelling argument

Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

"accuse" fallacies? WTF are you talking about?
I'm not surprised.
Your honor, the prosecutor is making a speech and has presented no question.
I did, actually, in my very first post, which you have repeatedly ignored. Why are you posting lies?

Proponents of gun control have been asking people who identify politically similarly to you that very question for years.

Tell me, if you think "539 murders" is enough to justify spending billions on a "solution" many experts agree will not solve the very problem it is supposed to address, then shouldn't the over 11,000 homicides by firearm be enough to suggest a much greater national emergency and a much greater response?
Seriously, stop posting lies.
There will always be Americans who kill and maim and cause mischief to other citizens. The government has to deal with that problem. It's part of the job and it's expectation.
So you agree the advocates of gun control have a point and the government needs to begin taking legislative steps to prevent them? Hey, if that's your position, then you and I are cool, because your position on one would be congruent with the other.

So is that the case?
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

I'm not surprised.
I did, actually, in my very first post, which you have repeatedly ignored. Why are you posting lies?


Seriously, stop posting lies.
So you agree the advocates of gun control have a point and the government needs to begin taking legislative steps to prevent them? Hey, if that's your position, then you and I are cool, because your position on one would be congruent with the other.

So is that the case?

At no point short of banning semi automatics will you make a dent in gun homicides. But you already know this.

We know that walls have made a dent in crime at border cities and town according to the source I already posted.

So you want to compare something that will do nothing and strip the rights of citizens to something that will have an impact and inconvenience criminals and illegal immigrants. You want to veer your off topic foolery back to the subject at hand?
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

It wasn't an emergency until Democrats took the House.
It's a Trump Dick Measuring Contest with added hostage taking.

Wall emergency.jpg

And by taking a hostage, he has screwed ANY chance at hammering out a reasonable solution.
Perhaps if your hero had tried something other than hostage taking, we would be doing just that right now.
But since he decided he was entitled to hostage taking, **** him and everyone else in Congress who supports him.
Now for sure he's not getting his wall.

He tried a stupid tactic and he's going to pay big time.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Agree? Disagree? If the latter, document why DJT does not make a compelling case for border enforcements;/barriers/wall/steel slats.

Conflating the argument with he's a "Russian spy" or a bloated orange buffoon does not count as a compelling argument. IOW, don't derail this thread with the usual sophomoric, anti-Trump banter.



Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

23% of Federal inmates are illegal immigrants. Border arrests are up 240%. In the Great State of Texas, between 2011 & 2018, there were a total of 292,000 crimes by illegal aliens, 539 murders, 32,000 assaults, 3,426 sexual assaults and 3000 weapons charges. Democrats come back!



https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1084098258534891521

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/12/us/politics/trump-illegal-immigration-statistics.html A good read if you'd like to see the context of Trump's dubious statements.

I think Americans have a good reason to doubt the veracity of Trump's claims, since he is proven to lie frequently on twitter. I think it might be incumbent on YOU to make a compelling case for his wall, based on actual facts, and expert commentary on how a wall would change these numbers that Trump claims are true.

I will defer to the "failing" NYTs to dispute Trump's claims. I assume your response will be Fake News or some such.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/12/us/politics/trump-illegal-immigration-statistics.html A good read if you'd like to see the context of Trump's dubious statements.

I think Americans have a good reason to doubt the veracity of Trump's claims, since he is proven to lie frequently on twitter. I think it might be incumbent on YOU to make a compelling case for his wall, based on actual facts, and expert commentary on how a wall would change these numbers that Trump claims are true.

I will defer to the "failing" NYTs to dispute Trump's claims. I assume your response will be Fake News or some such.

It largely said he was correct...nitpicking over the time frame and 2 percentage points.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Agree? Disagree? If the latter, document why DJT does not make a compelling case for border enforcements;/barriers/wall/steel slats.

Conflating the argument with he's a "Russian spy" or a bloated orange buffoon does not count as a compelling argument. IOW, don't derail this thread with the usual sophomoric, anti-Trump banter.

Simply, the 5.7 billion will not fund enough wall to complete the necessary stop illegals goal. If Trump and Mitch would stop their sophmoric, anti-Democrat banter, and allow as our founding fathers designed, a serious negotiation between the left and right of Congress, a sensible agreement would be achieved. So if you went into negotiations for border security not a small section of wall wouldn't you put all border improvements any money needed. on the table. If the argument to the American citizen is 5.7 billion will build a wall, we actually need anywhere from 30 to 50 billion to complete a full wall. We can reduce the Wall cost if we build less wall and add modern technology. Following what Democrats and Republicans have said publically in support of boarder security, they would have no choice but to strike a deal. Trump has never proposal an argument that lays out the full picture, arguably one can only believe he thinks the American public are stupid. Or he is itellectually lazy and does not have the capacity to lay out all facts, or he is trying to be a dictator and say my way or highway. In fact following the arguments of this thread and if all sides want what's best for our safety, let's come together left and right, have empathy for each sides beliefs and push for a big deal where we rename the negotiations from wall to U.S. security bill addressing all safety needs, border security and gun control.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Agree? Disagree? If the latter, document why DJT does not make a compelling case for border enforcements;/barriers/wall/steel slats.

Conflating the argument with he's a "Russian spy" or a bloated orange buffoon does not count as a compelling argument. IOW, don't derail this thread with the usual sophomoric, anti-Trump banter.



Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

23% of Federal inmates are illegal immigrants. Border arrests are up 240%. In the Great State of Texas, between 2011 & 2018, there were a total of 292,000 crimes by illegal aliens, 539 murders, 32,000 assaults, 3,426 sexual assaults and 3000 weapons charges. Democrats come back!



https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1084098258534891521

Your numbers look impressive but they do not show the truth as far as percentages!

Incarcerations in Texas for 2016

An estimated 1,955,951 native-born Americans, 117,994 illegal immigrants, and 43,618 legal immigrants were incarcerated in 2016. The incarceration rate for native-born Americans was 1,521 per 100,000, 800 per 100,000 for illegal immigrants, and 325 per 100,000 for legal immigrants in 2016 (Figure 1). Illegal immigrants are 47 percent less likely to be incarcerated than natives. Legal immigrants are 78 percent less likely to be incarcerated than natives. If native-born Americans were incarcerated at the same rate as illegal immigrants, about 930,000 fewer natives would be incarcerated. Conversely, if natives were incarcerated at the same rate as legal immigrants, about 1.5 million fewer natives would be in adult correctional facilities.
 
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Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

His so-called argument isn't compelling because it's premises aren't true.

graph.png
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

At no point short of banning semi automatics will you make a dent in gun homicides.
We disagree completely on this, but let's just say you're correct, for argument's sake.

If we can waste taxpayer money on a wall that is going to provide very little help, then why not investigate banning semi-automatics? To be clear, I'm not advocating that, I'm just asking why this country should take one asinine measure that isn't likely to work to save American lives when we can take a measure you seem to be claiming COULD help save American lives.

If American safety is the issue, then do you think we should investigate banning semi automatics?

We know that walls have made a dent in crime at border cities and town according to the source I already posted.
We also know most immigrants in the United States illegally don't cross the Mexican/US border under the cover of night, but rather overstay their visas. So many drugs are brought into this country through underground tunnels. This is generally known knowledge, but if you'd like a source for this, let me know.

So how is a wall going to solve the real problem when the real problem cannot be solved with a wall?

A wall is pointless and nothing more than a $5 billion vanity project/campaign promise. It will not do anything to increase the safety of Americans.

So you want to compare something that will do nothing and strip the rights of citizens
Things like universal background checks and gun databases will not strip the rights of citizens and it is dishonest to say otherwise.
to something that will have an impact and inconvenience criminals and illegal immigrants.
Except it will not come even close to addressing the real problem.

It's a pointless waste of money.

You want to veer your off topic foolery back to the subject at hand?
I have never not been on topic. This is supposedly about the safety of Americans. A wall is not going to solve the problems its supporters claim it will solve. So rather than spending billions of dollars on a worthless project which isn't going to save 539 lives, it seems a much better use of resources to try and save 11,000 lives.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

We disagree completely on this, but let's just say you're correct, for argument's sake.

If we can waste taxpayer money on a wall that is going to provide very little help, then why not investigate banning semi-automatics? To be clear, I'm not advocating that, I'm just asking why this country should take one asinine measure that isn't likely to work to save American lives when we can take a measure you seem to be claiming COULD help save American lives.

If you wont present my argument without distorting, why should I believe anything you post? The answer is, I shouldn't.

If American safety is the issue, then do you think we should investigate banning semi automatics?

The issues you want to conflate are so far apart its laughable. There is no constitutional right to unfettered immigration. Semi-automatics are not just constitutional, they are a protected right. This is why your question is off the rails, the two subjects aren't comparable.

We also know most immigrants in the United States illegally don't cross the Mexican/US border under the cover of night, but rather overstay their visas. So many drugs are brought into this country through underground tunnels. This is generally known knowledge, but if you'd like a source for this, let me know.

The arrogance is back, I don't need your sources. Follow up, how much drugs are interdicted at the border at checkpoints...you know with walls between the two countries?

So how is a wall going to solve the real problem when the real problem cannot be solved with a wall?

False question. You don't know this, you are assuming.

A wall is pointless and nothing more than a $5 billion vanity project/campaign promise. It will not do anything to increase the safety of Americans.

How much propaganda did you want to put in one post?

Things like universal background checks and gun databases will not strip the rights of citizens and it is dishonest to say otherwise.
Except it will not come even close to addressing the real problem.

Whoops, you slipped, you know for gun control advocates it will never be enough.
It's a pointless waste of money.
Demonstrated false by the El Paso example.

I have never not been on topic. This is supposedly about the safety of Americans. A wall is not going to solve the problems its supporters claim it will solve. So rather than spending billions of dollars on a worthless project which isn't going to save 539 lives, it seems a much better use of resources to try and save 11,000 lives.

You have never been on topic you want to compare gun control to immigration. Wedge issue bait and switch.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Agree? Disagree? If the latter, document why DJT does not make a compelling case for border enforcements;/barriers/wall/steel slats.

Conflating the argument with he's a "Russian spy" or a bloated orange buffoon does not count as a compelling argument. IOW, don't derail this thread with the usual sophomoric, anti-Trump banter.



Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

23% of Federal inmates are illegal immigrants. Border arrests are up 240%. In the Great State of Texas, between 2011 & 2018, there were a total of 292,000 crimes by illegal aliens, 539 murders, 32,000 assaults, 3,426 sexual assaults and 3000 weapons charges. Democrats come back!



https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1084098258534891521

So what is the RIO on the wall? I'm sure that they have studied that right?
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

So what is the RIO on the wall? I'm sure that they have studied that right?

Your snark aside, I haven't a clue what you are asking or why. RIO?
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Your snark aside, I haven't a clue what you are asking or why. RIO?

Return on investment. You want to spend X billions on a wall to cut down on illegal immigration. Some one somewhere should have done studies to see what number the wall would decrease illegal immigration by. Then we could see if the investment is a good spend of our tax dollars. Trump should know this as a "business man":roll, and should be ready to produce this for us. Trump so far just uses scary sounding numbers to keep the base in check.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Return on investment. You want to spend X billions on a wall to cut down on illegal immigration. Some one somewhere should have done studies to see what number the wall would decrease illegal immigration by. Then we could see if the investment is a good spend of our tax dollars. Trump should know this as a "business man":roll, and should be ready to produce this for us. Trump so far just uses scary sounding numbers to keep the base in check.

not to be snitty but that's abbreviated ROI, not RIO
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

not to be snitty but that's abbreviated ROI, not RIO

Sorry, you are correct dyslectic typo this morning.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Agree? Disagree? If the latter, document why DJT does not make a compelling case for border enforcements;/barriers/wall/steel slats.

Conflating the argument with he's a "Russian spy" or a bloated orange buffoon does not count as a compelling argument. IOW, don't derail this thread with the usual sophomoric, anti-Trump banter.



Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

23% of Federal inmates are illegal immigrants. Border arrests are up 240%. In the Great State of Texas, between 2011 & 2018, there were a total of 292,000 crimes by illegal aliens, 539 murders, 32,000 assaults, 3,426 sexual assaults and 3000 weapons charges. Democrats come back!



https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1084098258534891521

Statistics can be manipulated and may be deceiving. Border arrests up 240%? From when to when? Of the foreign nationals in federal prison 36% are there for illegal immigration (6% of all federal inmates). The statistic doesn't show how long it took to aggregate that many prisoners. It may have taken 10 years.

Setting the statistics aside, this has been going on for decades. It's not a crisis, it's a problem no one wants to address. The Republican house would not even vote on bipartisan comprehensive immigration legislation passed by the Senate during the Obama administration which included funding for enhanced border security. They never produced a bill of their own.

Evidence shows border barriers are effective if heavily guarded. But the cost to heavily guard thousands of miles of wall through remote desert wilderness would be exorbitant and it would have to be continuous. Also walls tend to force the flow if immigrants elsewhere. If the wall is built and suddenly we have thousands of immigrants crossing into the US using small watercraft (this is happening in Europe) then we have to enhance security along our sea coasts. It can be done, but also at great expense. It also leads to many deaths.

The approach should be enhanced security but also to decresase the incentive to cross illegally. This could be done at a much lower cost and with more effectiveness by enabling more legal traffic across the border and increasing the availability of work permits to enter the country enabling families to come and work for a fee and without a path to citizenship. There is no doubt the stricter the border security becomes the more expensive it is. The question is how much do we want to spend? No one seems interested in putting a price tag on that or even addressing the issue including Trump.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Can't answer the question huh?

This topic is about using statistics to justify action. If 539 murders is enough to justify action, why isn't over 11,000?

Like I said, proponents of gun control have been asking the same question of people like you for years. Interesting how when it comes to preventing the murder of children, those who believe politically similarly to you give a big yawn, yet when it comes to keeping brown skinned people out of the country, suddenly no number is small enough to use for purposes of fear mongering.

not really interesting, this is what these people do. They have no intelligence, no shame, and are just complete straight up a holes. I'm not surprised by their nonstop hypocrisy, its to be expected, since they all just repeat the same dumb talking points and defections
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

It largely said he was correct...nitpicking over the time frame and 2 percentage points.

It also pointed out that a very significant portion of those in prison, were in prison for immigration violations. Not murderers, rapists, thieves, or any of the dangers Trump likes to imagine.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Return on investment. You want to spend X billions on a wall to cut down on illegal immigration. Some one somewhere should have done studies to see what number the wall would decrease illegal immigration by. Then we could see if the investment is a good spend of our tax dollars. Trump should know this as a "business man":roll, and should be ready to produce this for us. Trump so far just uses scary sounding numbers to keep the base in check.

Read this:
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/trump-crisis-at-the-border/

and this:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...l-immigrant-costs-70-000-7x-deportation-price

I'll let you draw your own conclusions, but I am going with the above.

Oh, and it's ROI for return on investment, not RIO.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Agree? Disagree? If the latter, document why DJT does not make a compelling case for border enforcements;/barriers/wall/steel slats.

Conflating the argument with he's a "Russian spy" or a bloated orange buffoon does not count as a compelling argument. IOW, don't derail this thread with the usual sophomoric, anti-Trump banter.



Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

23% of Federal inmates are illegal immigrants. Border arrests are up 240%. In the Great State of Texas, between 2011 & 2018, there were a total of 292,000 crimes by illegal aliens, 539 murders, 32,000 assaults, 3,426 sexual assaults and 3000 weapons charges. Democrats come back!



https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1084098258534891521

Statistics picked out of greater context to be misleading.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/12/us/politics/trump-illegal-immigration-statistics.html
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

It also pointed out that a very significant portion of those in prison, were in prison for immigration violations. Not murderers, rapists, thieves, or any of the dangers Trump likes to imagine.
Assuming his position for him when he is factually correct in this instance is disingenuous isn't it?

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Read this:
https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/trump-crisis-at-the-border/

and this:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...l-immigrant-costs-70-000-7x-deportation-price

I'll let you draw your own conclusions, but I am going with the above.

Oh, and it's ROI for return on investment, not RIO.

Thanks for both links. I read them both. Very informative.

Both summaries were informative.

1st link summary

What Is A Crisis?

Yet despite repeated promises by presidents and Congress for the past three decades, the border remains nearly as porous as ever. And catch-and-release is still alive and well. Is it any wonder so many try to cross the border illegally every month?

Isn't the failure of leaders to do what they all say is necessary to protect national security interests the very definition of a crisis at the border?

Democrats, it seems, want to label everything a crisis. We have a health care crisis. A clean water crisis. A "food desert" crisis. An infrastructure crisis. A homelessness crisis.

Democrats label just about everything a crisis. Why? Because they want to whip up public support for bigger, more expensive, more intrusive government programs.

Everything, that is, except for the very real, long-standing crisis posed by a porous border that each year lets in tens of thousands of illegals.


2nd link summary

The reason illegal immigrants are unambiguously a net fiscal drain is that less-educated people, native-born or immigrant, earn on average modest wages and as a result they tend to make modest tax contributions, while needing significant social services. As we pointed out in our prior study, research by the Center for Immigration Studies, the Pew Research Center, the Heritage Foundation, and others have all found that a very large share of illegal immigrants have relatively few years of schooling — most have not completed high school or have only a high school education. The fiscal drain illegal immigrants create is not because they are all lazy and on welfare, nor it simply because they often work off the books and don't pay taxes. Rather they tend to earn wages commensurate with their education levels and, as result, they typically have low incomes on average, though there are individual exceptions. Those with low incomes as a group, regardless of legal status, use more in public services than they pay in taxes. It's why cities and states worry so much about losing their middle- and upper-income tax base. It is middle- and upper-income residents who pay most of the taxes, which does not describe the average illegal immigrant.

Roseann:)
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Assuming his position for him when he is factually correct in this instance is disingenuous isn't it?

Sent from my SM-S727VL using Tapatalk

You can insist he is factually correct all you please. Clearly he used "facts" that were erroneous and/or missing context. I do not believe I am the one being disingenuous here. Do you ever expect the truth from him?
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Put up a wall.

It will not appreciably reduce violent crime in America.

Show me how I am wrong.

Same thing you and yours screamed about the expansion of concealed carry...and what gas happened to violent crime since then....outside of democrat controlled hellholes where CC is blocked.
WRONG AGAIN.

A wall will REDUCE ILLEGAL CROSSINGS.

To pretend that a significant barrier is NOT a hindrance to traffic across is is asinine on its face.
 
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