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[W:270]President Trump makes a compelling argument

Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Grokmaster said:
Same thing you and yours screamed about the expansion of concealed carry...and what gas happened to violent crime since then....outside of democrat controlled hellholes where CC is blocked.
WRONG AGAIN.

A wall will REDUCE ILLEGAL CROSSINGS.

To pretend that a significant barrier is NOT a hindrance to traffic across is is asinine on its face.
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I have never weighed in on 2A concerns.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

JMR said:
You can insist he is factually correct all you please. Clearly he used "facts" that were erroneous and/or missing context. I do not believe I am the one being disingenuous here. Do you ever expect the truth from him?
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If you cannot credit him for being honest when he, in fact, is being honest, you have the problem.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

trixare4kids said:
Agree? Disagree? If the latter, document why DJT does not make a compelling case for border enforcements;/barriers/wall/steel slats.

Conflating the argument with he's a "Russian spy" or a bloated orange buffoon does not count as a compelling argument. IOW, don't derail this thread with the usual sophomoric, anti-Trump banter.



Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump

23% of Federal inmates are illegal immigrants. Border arrests are up 240%. In the Great State of Texas, between 2011 & 2018, there were a total of 292,000 crimes by illegal aliens, 539 murders, 32,000 assaults, 3,426 sexual assaults and 3000 weapons charges. Democrats come back!


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1084098258534891521
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I wonder what percentage of inmates are male. Since almost all violent crime is committed by males maybe something should be done. Maybe men should be castrated or something. If we're going to judge an entire category of people by the actions of a few, why not judge all men based on the actions of a few men?

It's a stupid argument that appeals to stupid people.

Why is there less crime in cities that have more undocumented immigrants?
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

This is the same argument racists make. If you talk to any White supremacist you'll hear crime statistics used as justification for discriminating against minorities. The reason is always x% of group C are criminals. Group C are bad people.

But consider that maybe 90% of violent crimes are committed by men. But nobody argues that men are bad people.

The truth is that even if 90% of violent crime is committed by men only a small percentage of men as a whole are involved in violent crime.

But these arguments work well on people who are poorly educated or just plain stupid.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Airyaman said:
Put up a wall.

It will not appreciably reduce violent crime in America.

Show me how I am wrong.
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A wall is not meant to stop violent criminals from coming in necessarily, but to slow the flow down considerably for the safety and security of Americans throughout the nation.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

SonOfDaedalus said:
I wonder what percentage of inmates are male. Since almost all violent crime is committed by males maybe something should be done. Maybe men should be castrated or something. If we're going to judge an entire category of people by the actions of a few, why not judge all men based on the actions of a few men?

It's a stupid argument that appeals to stupid people.

Why is there less crime in cities that have more undocumented immigrants?
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Speaking of stupid arguments...
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

marke said:
A wall is not meant to stop violent criminals from coming in necessarily, but to slow the flow down considerably for the safety and security of Americans throughout the nation.
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If the violent crime rate of illegal immigrants is not greater than the general population then it doesn't improve the safety of Americans at all.

And drug smugglers will just use drones now. That's the future of drug smuggling. Well, it's even the present.

A drone was caught with 13 lbs of meth. Will the wall stop that?

 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

SonOfDaedalus said:
If the violent crime rate of illegal immigrants is not greater than the general population then it doesn't improve the safety of Americans at all.

And drug smugglers will just use drones now. That's the future of drug smuggling. Well, it's even the present.

A drone was caught with 13 lbs of meth. Will the wall stop that?

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The wall is not intended to eliminate drug trafficking. It is meant to slow or stop illegal crossings on land, which is what our border control officials say and want. If Congress wants to tackle other issues then let them do that but don't try to confuse the wall with other issues Trump is not fighting for in this particular push.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

marke said:
The wall is not intended to eliminate drug trafficking. It is meant to slow or stop illegal crossings on land, which is what our border control officials say and want. If Congress wants to tackle other issues then let them do that but don't try to confuse the wall with other issues Trump is not fighting for in this particular push.
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You should tell that Trump who always talks about "they're bringing drugs" and sells his wall as a solution to drug trafficking.

If you want to stem the flow of illegal immigrants why not ask experts about the best options rather than some TV celebrity's idea?

It's 2019, why not focus on high tech solutions like drones and sensors? If there are places where a wall is needed erect a wall. Just be smart about it. What's so unreasonable about that?
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

trixare4kids said:
Dept. of Homeland Security...

Yours appears to be some leftist wingnut who calls themselves a 'journalist'.



You're very welcome, my friend!

DHS: 23% of all federal prisoners are illegals, just 7 of 42,034 saved from deportation

Yes, There Is A Crisis At The Border — The Numbers Show It
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You're missing the point of the article. DJT saying that 23% of all federal inmates are illegal immigrants is meant to suggest that illegal immigrants are coming here committing a bunch of horrible crimes for which we have to incarcerate them. But in fact, most are federal inmates merely because they crossed the border without a visa, or alternately overstayed their visa and were subsequently arrested. They're inmates only temporarily, while waiting to be deported, because they haven't done anything worth keeping them more permanently detained. Being on U.S. soil without being a citizen or having a current visa is their only crime. Of course, that is a crime, but DJT means people to understand that they've done something other than take a walk across a desert, something horrible and frightening and crisis-worthy.

It's the same kind of line that was used in the 80's against people smoking weed. They make up "50% of the prison population" or some ridiculous shyte like that, meant to make people think that potheads are out there causing all sorts of chaos and catastrophe, when in fact, the vast majority were in prison because they got caught with a dime bag a couple of times, nothing more. It's nearly the same as if we made it illegal to have the letter J in your name, rounded up all the Janes and Jorges and Jerrys and Jennifers, and then said that all those Js make up some huge percent of the prison population.
 
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Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

ashurbanipal said:
You're missing the point of the article. DJT saying that 23% of all federal inmates are illegal immigrants is meant to suggest that illegal immigrants are coming here committing a bunch of horrible crimes for which we have to incarcerate them. But in fact, most are federal inmates merely because they crossed the border without a visa, or alternately overstayed their visa and were subsequently arrested. They're inmates only temporarily, while waiting to be deported, because they haven't done anything worth keeping them more permanently detained. Being on U.S. soil without being a citizen or having a current visa is their only crime. Of course, that is a crime, but DJT means people to understand that they've done something other than take a walk across a desert, something horrible and frightening and crisis-worthy.

It's the same kind of line that was used in the 80's against people smoking weed. They make up "50% of the prison population" or some ridiculous shyte like that, meant to make people think that potheads are out there causing all sorts of chaos and catastrophe, when in fact, the vast majority were in prison because they got caught with a dime bag a couple of times, nothing more. It's nearly the same as if we made it illegal to have the letter J in your name, rounded up all the Janes and Jorges and Jerrys and Jennifers, and then said that all those Js make up some huge percent of the prison population.
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You're wrong... You might want to take your argument up with the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice

The Bureau of Prisons is responsible for the custody and care of federal inmates. As of December 2017, BOP has custody of 38,132 known or suspected aliens. This represents approximately 21 percent of the total BOP population — meaning that one in five BOP inmates is an alien.

Of the 38,132 known or suspected aliens, approximately 66 percent were unlawfully present in the United States.

Some analysts charge that the reason there are so many aliens in federal custody is that they are there for primarily immigration-related offenses. This is certainly true, as about 29 percent of aliens in BOP custody have committed immigration offenses such as illegal reentry after removal.

But most of the aliens are incarcerated because of other federal crimes they committed. According to the report, 46 percent of these aliens committed drug trafficking or other drug-related offenses, which was the largest crime category committed by aliens in BOP custody. The remaining 25 percent committed a variety of other criminal offenses, including fraud, weapons charges, racketeering, and sexual crimes. Clearly, the large population of aliens in BOP custody cannot simply be explained away by immigration crimes.
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https://cis.org/Huennekens/DOJ-26-Federal-Prisoners-Are-Aliens
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

I see the racists are out in force in this thread. "Oh noes! Brown peeps at da bodah!"
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

OpportunityCost said:
If you wont present my argument without distorting
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I didn't say it was your argument, it is my argument and has been repeatedly in this thread. Do you not read the posts before you reply to them?

The issues you want to conflate are so far apart its laughable.
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You think the issue of safety of Americans and the issue of safety of Americans are far apart?

Really?

There is no constitutional right to unfettered immigration.
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There is no constitutional right to unfettered weapon ownership. :shrug:

But, look, you clearly are missing the point. Please go back and read what I wrote to Bullseye and see if you can figure out what the point is.

The arrogance is back
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That wasn't arrogance, it was a statement of fact. The fact you cannot differentiate the two speaks volumes.

False question. You don't know this, you are assuming.
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I'd provide you sources, but you made it clear you don't want them. So research it yourself.

How much propaganda did you want to put in one post?
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If you think a position agreed upon by numerous experts is propaganda, then I have a much better understanding of what compels you to post such ridiculous things.

Whoops, you slipped, you know for gun control advocates it will never be enough.
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So you don't have an actual argument, just a useless fallacy.

I am not surprised.

Demonstrated false by the El Paso example.
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See above.

You have never been on topic
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I have never not been on topic. If you do not understand how, then that's a you problem.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Slyfox696 said:
I didn't say it was your argument, it is my argument and has been repeatedly in this thread. Do you not read the posts before you reply to them?
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Smart mouthed replies aren't getting an answer.

You think the issue of safety of Americans and the issue of safety of Americans are far apart?
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Not that simple.

Really?

There is no constitutional right to unfettered weapon ownership. :shrug:
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Since when is unfettered ownership even the discussion. More distortion.

But, look, you clearly are missing the point. Please go back and read what I wrote to Bullseye and see if you can figure out what the point is.
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More smart mouth.

That wasn't arrogance, it was a statement of fact. The fact you cannot differentiate the two speaks volumes.
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More smart mouth.

I'd provide you sources, but you made it clear you don't want them. So research it yourself.
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Your resources like to distort, like you.

If you think a position agreed upon by numerous experts is propaganda, then I have a much better understanding of what compels you to post such ridiculous things.
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More smart mouth.

So you don't have an actual argument, just a useless fallacy.
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Not a fallacy when you confirm it.





I have never not been on topic. If you do not understand how, then that's a you problem.
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Ending appropriately with more smart mouth, and off topic.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

trixare4kids said:
You mean your source that says some of the figures are correct – or close to correct?

The author of your article mangled what the president wrote to deliberately mislead the reader by conflating and obfuscating.

Glad I could help!
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Choosing to respond here...since it's here where Trump's numbers are cleaned up.

Everyone will have a different opinion on this one, but if you're interested in mine, border control is very important for any country with a border. I would, however, be concerned about "solutions" that are going to cost a lot of money and not fix the problem. I would also b concerned about a decision like this being made by someone as (pick one: incompetent or untrustworthy) as Trump.

I mean, after all, he's an orange buffoon of a Russian spy... ;)

Seriously, though, being against the wall doesn't automatically imply being against border control. Maybe the better question would have been "In light of these numbers from Trump, corrected by the media, if you do not like the wall, what do you think the alternative solution should be". It would be very interesting to see the Left and the Right engage in these kinds of conversations, vs. the usual obligatory flipping of the bird to each other.

You guys ought to just have a referendum, and put this issue to bed. If your representatives (aka the government, on both sides) can't get their **** together, maybe you guys should be asked directly.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Airyaman said:
Try google. That's what I did, 2nd link: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...al-crime-statistics-immigration-a8725026.html
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Typical haters tactic--find some minute error in a number or a bit of an exaggeration in any fact, and use that to discredit an entire argument. And that's assuming that "The Independent" has better numbers than the President does, which could be debatable in itself.

Doesn't the left ever become embarrassed or ashamed at this kind of dishonesty? Why is it the left never EVER has it's own credible argument to rebut anything the President or anybody else on the right offers? All they offer is nitpicking to establish something else to use to attack him but will not offer any kind of intellectually honest argument against the point he is making.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

SonOfDaedalus said:
Border patrol agents are not experts any more than security guards are security experts.
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Of course. Liberal 1%ers like Pelosi and Schumer are.

#BUBBLE
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

Airyaman said:
Put up a wall.

It will not appreciably reduce violent crime in America.

Show me how I am wrong.
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Perhaps we should be deporting illegal aliens for their own safety then.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

OlNate said:
Choosing to respond here...since it's here where Trump's numbers are cleaned up.

Everyone will have a different opinion on this one, but if you're interested in mine, border control is very important for any country with a border. I would, however, be concerned about "solutions" that are going to cost a lot of money and not fix the problem. I would also b concerned about a decision like this being made by someone as (pick one: incompetent or untrustworthy) as Trump.

I mean, after all, he's an orange buffoon of a Russian spy... ;)

Seriously, though, being against the wall doesn't automatically imply being against border control. Maybe the better question would have been "In light of these numbers from Trump, corrected by the media, if you do not like the wall, what do you think the alternative solution should be". It would be very interesting to see the Left and the Right engage in these kinds of conversations, vs. the usual obligatory flipping of the bird to each other.

You guys ought to just have a referendum, and put this issue to bed. If your representatives (aka the government, on both sides) can't get their **** together, maybe you guys should be asked directly.
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I think the way it's being done now is appropriate and will suffice. The majority of voters agree that there is a border crisis according to what I've read today, but where they disagree is that a border WALL is needed. They do seem to agree that some other border enhancements are needed, (such as a double/triple layered fence or steel fences where needed, along with more boots and paws on the ground, and other technology).
So what's the problem then for Nancy and Chuck? Why are they being so hard headed about giving 5 billion for the aforementioned?

This is not the first gov. shutdown my country has every had.
We are free to call or write our congressmen, our president and direct them to proceed a certain way on our behalf.
If we don't we are also free to vote them out when they are up for reelection.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

trixare4kids said:
So what's the problem then for Nancy and Chuck? Why are they being so hard headed about giving 5 billion for the aforementioned?
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I snipped the rest because I feel like I agree with most of what you said, and don't have much to respond to on that. If I left something out that you felt was really important to your point, it's because I missed it, not because I'm trying to be a jerk...let me know, and I'll reconsider the response. :)

I think their problem is the wall. That's my take, anyway. If Trump abandoned the wall, and put together a real plan that everyone can buy into (or almost everyone, let's be realistic), then my WTF would be pointed in the other direction if they decided to drag their heels.

It's funny, you know...Trump could bury the Dems simply by being reasonable. He could get the win for the increased border control, he could get the win for making the better deal, he could get the win if the Dems still help him up, despite coming back with a reasonable compromise. That he doesn't appears to indicate he can't. Same as with the tax returns... All he has to do is be reasonable. Seems like a missed opportunity, for someone who desperately needs a win.
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

OpportunityCost said:
If you cannot credit him for being honest when he, in fact, is being honest, you have the problem.
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As pointed out by the NYT article, he was not being honest. And are you suggesting that because the man lies constantly, if he ever approaches the truth he should be given credit?

I bet he loves your way of thinking.:roll:
 
Re: President Trump makes a compelling argument

OpportunityCost said:
Smart mouthed replies aren't getting an answer.
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Your only reply would have had to been an apology for not reading what you were responding to.

Not that simple.
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It's exactly what is being discussed.

Since when is unfettered ownership even the discussion. More distortion.
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You brought it up, not me. :shrug:

More smart mouth.

More smart mouth.

Your resources like to distort, like you.

More smart mouth.

Not a fallacy when you confirm it.

Ending appropriately with more smart mouth, and off topic.
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So in your first three lines, you refuse to admit you didn't know what you were talking about, try to claim the exact same issue is nothing like the same issue and accused me of a distraction you started. And you didn't even attempt to address the topic in anything after that.

I think it's obvious you lost. Have a great day!
 
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