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Thread: Why Democrats can't agree to give Trump his wall

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    Why Democrats can't agree to give Trump his wall

    While Republicans are trying to make this about a simple matter of "border security" or "who's to blame for the shutdown," there are practical matters for why Democrats can't give Trump his wall.

    1)The source of funding for the wall was a lie. Trump supporters will argue that they knew it was a lie, but this demands adhering to the rather...unique...logic that because they were in on the lie this somehow obligates the rest of the country to go along with it. In other words, just because more than one person is in on a con doesn't make it any less of a con. But more to the point, to agree to fund a giant project based on one of the most important aspects of it being a lie simply rewards that lie, and incentivizes the motivation to lie on future projects.

    2)Pretty much everything about the wall is a lie, from the artificial sense of urgency surrounding it which spontaneously came into being just as Democrats took control of the House, to the claim that terrorists are flooding across the borders in the thousands, to the claim that immigrants bring disease, to the claim that immigrants are responsible for any meaningful percentage of crime...it's all based on lies. If the wall was a necessary and legitimate need, it wouldn't require lies in its defense. The truth would stand on its own. So as with the above: to agree to fund a giant project based on lies simply rewards those lies, and incentivizes the motivation to lie on future projects.

    3)To give Trump his wall proves correct his belief that using Federal workers as pawns is a workable strategy, and he will therefore be sure to repeat the strategy.

    4)Similar to the above but even more significant, to provide Trump his wall demonstrates that Trump will be able to demand something unreasonable every time a spending bill is up. Since he will know that Democrats will fold, this will immediately reduce the House to an inferior chamber of Congress (and by extension, an inferior branch of government). Trump will correctly conclude that he could demand anything at all, up to and including the cessation of House oversight over the Executive branch altogether.

    5)To give Trump his wall negates Trump's own claim that he owns the shutdown. Why adopt blame for a terrible thing that somebody else has already agreed to shoulder the blame for?

    6)Trump has spent so much effort imbuing the wall with racist principles (equating Latinos to vermin, disease, criminals and animals) that for Democrats to agree to a wall necessarily adopts the stink of his racism onto themselves.

    7)Trump doesn't even treat the wall issue seriously, so why should Democrats? To date, Trump hasn't landed on a final vision of the wall, hasn't conducted a serious cost analysis of it, can't seem to stick to a single narrative for who will pay for it, and often abandons the wall only to spontaneously make it his prerogative by the end of the day depending on who on Fox News is currently yammering at him. If the wall is such a serious issue, then Trump has treated it as unseriously as possible, and therefore Democrats are not required to treat it as a serious thing that they need to spend a single dollar on.

    8)This is technically a political reason and not the most important one, but there's no reason it should be be excluded from the list anyway: Republicans have already lost the public debate on the wall. A majority of the country doesn't see the wall as a priority, doesn't want a shutdown, and they blame the shutdown primarily on Trump and Republicans. Around 32-35% blame Democrats, which is an interesting number because that's a little less than the percentage of the country that comprises Trump's own base. Why should Democrats give in when, as polls are consistently showing, they already won the debate?

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    Re: Why Democrats can't agree to give Trump his wall

    The whole wall/shutdown ****-show is nothing more than a great big shiny distraction from impending justice.
    By the way, DOJ IS closed during the shutdown, imagine that.
    "The Left ones think I'm Right, the Right ones think I'm wrong."
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    Re: Why Democrats can't agree to give Trump his wall

    The other big reason why Democrats cannot cave in to Trump on this wall nonsense is even simpler.
    You don't reward hostage takers...especially if Trump is the one taking the hostages, unless you want to see more hostages every week from now on.

    If we reward Trump for taking hostages, he'll treat hostage taking the way a pubescent teenage boy treats his genitalia the moment he discovers masturbation.
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    Re: Why Democrats can't agree to give Trump his wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    While Republicans are trying to make this about a simple matter of "border security" or "who's to blame for the shutdown," there are practical matters for why Democrats can't give Trump his wall.

    1)The source of funding for the wall was a lie. Trump supporters will argue that they knew it was a lie, but this demands adhering to the rather...unique...logic that because they were in on the lie this somehow obligates the rest of the country to go along with it. In other words, just because more than one person is in on a con doesn't make it any less of a con. But more to the point, to agree to fund a giant project based on one of the most important aspects of it being a lie simply rewards that lie, and incentivizes the motivation to lie on future projects.

    2)Pretty much everything about the wall is a lie, from the artificial sense of urgency surrounding it which spontaneously came into being just as Democrats took control of the House, to the claim that terrorists are flooding across the borders in the thousands, to the claim that immigrants bring disease, to the claim that immigrants are responsible for any meaningful percentage of crime...it's all based on lies. If the wall was a necessary and legitimate need, it wouldn't require lies in its defense. The truth would stand on its own. So as with the above: to agree to fund a giant project based on lies simply rewards those lies, and incentivizes the motivation to lie on future projects.

    3)To give Trump his wall proves correct his belief that using Federal workers as pawns is a workable strategy, and he will therefore be sure to repeat the strategy.

    4)Similar to the above but even more significant, to provide Trump his wall demonstrates that Trump will be able to demand something unreasonable every time a spending bill is up. Since he will know that Democrats will fold, this will immediately reduce the House to an inferior chamber of Congress (and by extension, an inferior branch of government). Trump will correctly conclude that he could demand anything at all, up to and including the cessation of House oversight over the Executive branch altogether.

    5)To give Trump his wall negates Trump's own claim that he owns the shutdown. Why adopt blame for a terrible thing that somebody else has already agreed to shoulder the blame for?

    6)Trump has spent so much effort imbuing the wall with racist principles (equating Latinos to vermin, disease, criminals and animals) that for Democrats to agree to a wall necessarily adopts the stink of his racism onto themselves.

    7)Trump doesn't even treat the wall issue seriously, so why should Democrats? To date, Trump hasn't landed on a final vision of the wall, hasn't conducted a serious cost analysis of it, can't seem to stick to a single narrative for who will pay for it, and often abandons the wall only to spontaneously make it his prerogative by the end of the day depending on who on Fox News is currently yammering at him. If the wall is such a serious issue, then Trump has treated it as unseriously as possible, and therefore Democrats are not required to treat it as a serious thing that they need to spend a single dollar on.

    8)This is technically a political reason and not the most important one, but there's no reason it should be be excluded from the list anyway: Republicans have already lost the public debate on the wall. A majority of the country doesn't see the wall as a priority, doesn't want a shutdown, and they blame the shutdown primarily on Trump and Republicans. Around 32-35% blame Democrats, which is an interesting number because that's a little less than the percentage of the country that comprises Trump's own base. Why should Democrats give in when, as polls are consistently showing, they already won the debate?
    Tell you what...clarify this: "The source of funding for the wall was a lie."
    TANSTAAFL

    Liberal turned conservative David Mamet famously said: In order to continue advancing their illogical arguments modern liberals have to pretend not to know things…

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    Re: Why Democrats can't agree to give Trump his wall

    Again, I want to highlight for any of you who wish to say "DEMOCRATS ARE TO BLAME!!!!!".

    Palease!

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/11/polit...own/index.html

    (CNN)Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell was not in the Capitol Friday, when some furloughed federal workers missed their first paychecks and the government shutdown tied the mark for the longest in American history.

    McConnell, who has been brutalized by Democrats for blocking votes to reopen the government, skipped his customary remarks as the Senate gaveled in, when he might have defended his decision not to allow votes until a broad deal is reached between President Donald Trump and congressional Democrats over border wall funding.
    "So I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down," Trump said. "I'm not going to blame you for it — the last time you shut it down, it didn't work. I will take the mantle of shutting it down." - President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Tell you what...clarify this: "The source of funding for the wall was a lie."
    Questions like this are why you're the worst of his sycophants.

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    Re: Why Democrats can't agree to give Trump his wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    The other big reason why Democrats cannot cave in to Trump on this wall nonsense is even simpler.
    You don't reward hostage takers...especially if Trump is the one taking the hostages, unless you want to see more hostages every week from now on.

    If we reward Trump for taking hostages, he'll treat hostage taking the way a pubescent teenage boy treats his genitalia the moment he discovers masturbation.
    Yep, that's point #3.

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    Re: Why Democrats can't agree to give Trump his wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    Tell you what...clarify this: "The source of funding for the wall was a lie."
    Play your little gas lighting game with someone else. Not interested.

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    Re: Why Democrats can't agree to give Trump his wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    1)The source of funding for the wall was a lie. Trump supporters will argue that they knew it was a lie, but this demands adhering to the rather...unique...logic that because they were in on the lie this somehow obligates the rest of the country to go along with it. In other words, just because more than one person is in on a con doesn't make it any less of a con. But more to the point, to agree to fund a giant project based on one of the most important aspects of it being a lie simply rewards that lie, and incentivizes the motivation to lie on future projects.
    If he believed it, it was not a deliberate untruth meant to deceive.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Why Democrats can't agree to give Trump his wall

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    If he believed it, it was not a deliberate untruth meant to deceive.
    A point that is belied by the fact that he then lied when he claimed he never said Mexico would pay for it.

    And even if true (and it's not), then all you've demonstrated is that he's too ignorant and too incompetent to spearhead such a large and serious policy.

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    Re: Why Democrats can't agree to give Trump his wall

    Why should the funding of "the wall" hold up funds for agencies that have nothing to do with "the wall". For example funding for the National Park Service or Forest Service.

    imo, the funding for the "wall" should be a stand alone spending bill.
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