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Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strike?

Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Deuce said:
They can't. Rent checks are going to bounce at the start of February, air travel gets less safe every single day, and Trump takes all the credit.
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it's unfortunate that workers have to suffer because of Trump. i doubt that it will be the last time.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Helix said:
sounds like they don't get treated very well by their employers or by the general public. they'll probably lose a lot of them, as i doubt that they can afford to work for free while Trump floats his ego.
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Once the snazzy TSA Pre-check starts shutting down, the elites will be subjected to the same long lines and frustration as everybody else, even the First Class folks will be getting "the biz-niss". Once a few CEO's and Congress critters who can't charter private flights get subjected to that, you can count on the pressure rising.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Xelor said:
Essential government workers:
  • Federal government employees who've been deemed important enough that they haven't been furloughed, but who yet aren't getting paid.


Though I understand why some essential government workers may not strike, a huge bloc of them, most notably TSA airport workers and/or air traffic controllers, should have gone on strike on Jan. 4, 2019. Why that group of government employees?
  • Because planes don't fly without them.
  • Because there are far too many of them and their training lag times too long to rapidly replace them to get planes flying again.
    • They can literally shutdown US air transportation -- passenger and freight -- for a couple months at least.
  • Because they are "regular" people whose roles position them to have pivotal, unignorable impacts. America's commercial sectors -- anyone who needs to fly; anyone who ships stuff on FedEx, UPS, etc. -- would lay massive pressure on Trump and Congress to get the government up and running again.
Those two groups of essential employees are both "visible" and numerous enough that their striking could very rapidly move either (1) a veto-proof Congressional bill's passage or (2) the POTUS and Congress to collaboratively get the government funded and reopened.

The US is democracy and this seems like one of the times when "the people," not their elected representatives, need to take the lead to achieve a specific outcomes.
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Maybe because it's against the law, as it should be.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Helix said:
i doubt that they'll get a good recommendation from their superiors if they're fired. my guess is that many will wait it out until waiting it out becomes financially impossible.
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Red:
I think you're right about that. Few folks exhibit economically rational behavior when the it comes to managing the sale of their own labor.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Checkerboard Strangler said:
Once the snazzy TSA Pre-check starts shutting down, the elites will be subjected to the same long lines and frustration as everybody else, even the First Class folks will be getting "the biz-niss". Once a few CEO's and Congress critters who can't charter private flights get subjected to that, you can count on the pressure rising.
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Red:
What CEOs and members of Congress lack access to charter flights? None that I know of, unless one has in mind, in substance, "Joe Schmoe" who's the CEO of the "lemonade stand" at the end of his driveway.

The main concern for such folks is air traffic controllers. TSA personnel are pertinent to commercial airline operations. Without them, UPS, FedEx, USPS, Delta, United, American Airlines, etc. can't fly planes because TSA inspectors make sure there aren't bombs (and other contraband) in the packages/containers they carry.

Though they work in the "bowels" of airports and airline passengers thus don't much see them, those TSA personnel are every bit as critical to safe air transportation as are the folks at the security checkpoints inside the terminal. Just as passengers' cargo (their luggage) doesn't get on a plane without TSA examination, neither does all the other cargo planes carry. Make no mistake, airlines survive not from transporting passengers but from carrying cargo. (How Stuff Works: Passenger Airline Freight)
 
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Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Xelor said:
Red:
What CEOs and members of Congress lack access to charter flights? None that I know of, unless one has in mind, in substance, "Joe Schmoe" who's the CEO of the "lemonade stand" at the end of his driveway.

The main concern for such folks is air traffic controllers. TSA personnel are pertinent to commercial airline operations. Without them, UPS, FedEx, USPS, Delta, United, American Airlines, etc. can't fly planes because TSA inspectors make sure there aren't bombs (and other contraband) in the packages/containers they carry.

Though they work in the "bowels" of airports and airline passengers thus don't much see them, those TSA personnel are every bit as critical to safe air transportation as are the folks at the security checkpoints inside the terminal. Just as passengers' cargo (their luggage) doesn't get on a plane without TSA examination, neither does all the other cargo planes carry. Make no mistake, airlines survive not from transporting passengers but from carrying cargo. (How Stuff Works: Passenger Airline Freight)
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I'm aware of how air freight works.
I installed the data infrastructure server upgrades at TSA offices at 29 airports back around 2004.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Xelor said:
Red:
I think you're right about that. Few folks exhibit economically rational behavior when the it comes to managing the sale of their own labor.
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depending on where you live, the amount of control one has over that can vary wildly. in my red state, it's generally take it or leave it.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Helix said:
depending on where you live, the amount of control one has over that can vary wildly. in my red state, it's generally take it or leave it.
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It's the nature of the labor being sold, more so than the locality in which the labor is delivered, that makes the sale of labor be more nearly a "take it or leave it" matter than more nearly and "I'm worth it, which I why I charge a higher prices for my labor" matter. Individuals who sell undifferentiated labor are, just as are sellers of non-differentiable goods (commodities), are price takes. Individuals who sell differentiated labor are, like monopolistic competitors, more able to be price makers rather than price takers.

Obviously, if one's labor only commands minimum wage, it's imprudent to move to a higher cost locale; however, it does make sense to move to lower cost-of-living locale so that, if nothing else, one's minimum wage revenue "goes farther" in paying for one's expenses.

When one thinks of oneself, the labors one sells, as a business instead of as a person seeking something from others (employers), it's a whole lot easier to figure out whether to "stay or go."


Note:
Nobody has control over what another is willing to pay for that which one sells, one's labors.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Xelor said:
It's the nature of the labor being sold, more so than the locality in which the labor is delivered, that makes the sale of labor be more nearly a "take it or leave it" matter than more nearly and "I'm worth it, which I why I charge a higher prices for my labor" matter. Individuals who sell undifferentiated labor are, just as are sellers of non-differentiable goods (commodities), are price takes. Individuals who sell differentiated labor are, like monopolistic competitors, more able to be price makers rather than price takers.

Obviously, if one's labor only commands minimum wage, it's imprudent to move to a higher cost locale; however, it does make sense to move to lower cost-of-living locale so that, if nothing else, one's minimum wage revenue "goes farther" in paying for one's expenses.

When one thinks of oneself, the labors one sells, as a business instead of as a person seeking something from others (employers), it's a whole lot easier to figure out whether to "stay or go."


Note:
Nobody has control over what another is willing to pay for that which one sells, one's labors.
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if you live in a right to work for less / fire at will state, the dynamic is a bit different, even for highly educated and skilled workers.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Helix said:
if you live in a right to work for less / fire at will state, the dynamic is a bit different, even for highly educated and skilled workers.
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What "dynamics" extant in right-to-work states, and that are (or aren't) extant in non-right-to-work states, materially alter the nature of the labor sales transaction to the point that those "dynamics" alter the rational choice decision making model pertaining to whether to sell one's labor in the state in which one finds oneself or do so in a different state? Particularly in the context we're here discussing: the prospect of going indefinitely without current income and the impact(s) of doing so vs. "waiting it out."
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Xelor said:
What "dynamics" extant in right-to-work states, and that are (or aren't) extant in non-right-to-work states, materially alter the nature of the labor sales transaction to the point that those "dynamics" alter the rational choice decision making model pertaining to whether to sell one's labor in the state in which one finds oneself or do so in a different state? Particularly in the context we're here discussing: the prospect of going indefinitely without current income and the impact(s) of doing so vs. "waiting it out."
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for example, one can be a highly skilled and educated worker and still be forced to pretend that you are an independent contractor. that is pretty common in my field. you can be fired for any reason or for no reason at all, as per the contract. don't like it? you can quit and work for a competitor as an independent contractor. it's a scam. if you aren't born in a red state, i don't recommend moving to one. either way, my ability to negotiate the sale of my labor is basically limited to what they offer.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Helix said:
it's unfortunate that workers have to suffer because of Trump. i doubt that it will be the last time.
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If the Dems cave this time, we can count on the poor and most vulnerable being continually ground into dust for the foreseeable future. Hostage takers who get rewarded just take more and bigger hostages the next time.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Xelor said:
Red:
What CEOs and members of Congress lack access to charter flights?
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A lot of congressional reps and senators take First Class flights, and some even fly coach from time to time.
It's just that most of them have TSA Pre-check so you don't see them in line.

I've seen more than a few congress critters on flights.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Checkerboard Strangler said:
If the Dems cave this time, we can count on the poor and most vulnerable being continually ground into dust for the foreseeable future. Hostage takers who get rewarded just take more and bigger hostages the next time.
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seems that way. it has been speculated that the five billion is about a quarter of what he will need for the full ego wall. if his strategy works this time, why wouldn't he do it again next time?
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Helix said:
for example, one can be a highly skilled and educated worker and still be forced to pretend that you are an independent contractor. that is pretty common in my field. you can be fired for any reason or for no reason at all, as per the contract. don't like it? you can quit and work for a competitor as an independent contractor. it's a scam. if you aren't born in a red state, i don't recommend moving to one. either way, my ability to negotiate the sale of my labor is basically limited to what they offer.
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That's one of the main reasons I left Texas. At least I got to spend the last few years in my career more comfortably.
Looking back, I wish I'd been more firm about bringing the wife and kids out here to L.A. instead of going down there.

I worked for a crap-ton of outfits who went the "independent contractor" route, and it sucked.
Out here, I would have been able to get back in the union and it would have meant something.

We do okay now in our "emeritus" years but I suspect I would have done much better financially out here.
I got together with her in 1998. Real estate was higher here but it wasn't ridiculous like it is now.
My peers who bought in the late 1990's are now mostly paid off and enjoying no mortgage.
We're secure, but we'll have a mortgage for quite some time yet.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Checkerboard Strangler said:
That's one of the main reasons I left Texas. At least I got to spend the last few years in my career more comfortably.
Looking back, I wish I'd been more firm about bringing the wife and kids out here to L.A. instead of going down there.

I worked for a crap-ton of outfits who went the "independent contractor" route, and it sucked.
Out here, I would have been able to get back in the union and it would have meant something.

We do okay now in our "emeritus" years but I suspect I would have done much better financially out here.
I got together with her in 1998. Real estate was higher here but it wasn't ridiculous like it is now.
My peers who bought in the late 1990's are now mostly paid off and enjoying no mortgage.
We're secure, but we'll have a mortgage for quite some time yet.
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we stay here because our family and support structure are here. if not, we'd probably move. the cost of living is lower, but it isn't a good place to work.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Helix said:
seems that way. it has been speculated that the five billion is about a quarter of what he will need for the full ego wall. if his strategy works this time, why wouldn't he do it again next time?
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"...and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next, and the next...ad nauseum.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Helix said:
we stay here because our family and support structure are here. if not, we'd probably move. the cost of living is lower, but it isn't a good place to work.
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I understand. Karen's older brother is in Dallas, her niece is in Austin, her parents were in Arkansas.
But the "no country for old men" realizations got too strong, and it eventually became clear that it was also "no country for old women" either, and MY family, who Karen is very tight with already due to her sister already being married to my brother, is out here for the most part.

So while she doesn't see her brother all that often anymore (he's a bit domineering anyway) she does see her sister all the time.
She has another sister out in Missouri, too.

As for the cost of living, it's much higher here but I was making much more, and with better worker protections, so in the end it all panned out better for us.

As of now, I make more money just selling my DVD's, and I collect rent on real estate that I own, and she is collecting her 100% service connected VA disability pension as she has been all along.

As long as the extremists don't abolish the VA and tear down veteran's benefits, she'll be fine.
But hearing what we hear from Trump feels like she has the Sword of Damocles sitting over her head.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

I think the problem with the "they should strike" approach is that all the Trump administration has to do is turn to the Reagan text book of the 1980's and the Air Traffic Controllers strike. The similarities are too great and the path too easy to follow.

The chance of all of them going out is zero. FAA would just insert managers and Military Air Traffic Controllers into the Air Traffic Control jobs to fill in for those that did go out just as Reagan did. The same would very likely happen with TSA. Military personnel and managers would fill the slots created by those that went out. Then at the end of it they all get fired. Where do you go to exercise your talents and take advantage of your experience as an Air Traffic Controller? TSA personnel might have better luck in Security related jobs.

Going out would be one heck of an ask. We would simply be asking them to weigh whether their actions would help GOP Senators or anybody else for that matter to come to their senses. Again using the experience of the Air Traffic Controllers strike in 1981 I would say we would be asking them to make a bad bet.
 
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Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Skeptic Bob said:
They can’t strike, but they CAN call in sick and enough TSA officers have been doing it that some terminals have been having to close early.
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This is happening. Miami Airport shut some stuff down due to it.

They need to increase the pressure. Orange Jesus is stubborn.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Checkerboard Strangler said:
A lot of congressional reps and senators take First Class flights, and some even fly coach from time to time.
It's just that most of them have TSA Pre-check so you don't see them in line.

I've seen more than a few congress critters on flights.
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Perhaps you've not noticed my location? LOL
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Xelor said:
Perhaps you've not noticed my location? LOL
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Oh come on, you KNOW I am well aware of where you're at.
And it's a lovely neighborhood, by the way, always has been.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Checkerboard Strangler said:
Oh come on, you KNOW I am well aware of where you're at.
And it's a lovely neighborhood, by the way, always has been.
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I guess I don't quite understand your point for mentioning that members of Congress fly first class.

There are, after all, two general kinds of commercial first class flyers:
  • Domestic flight first class passengers --> These folks, including members of Congress, are just frequent flyers who've been upgraded by the airline. Very few people actually purchase domestic first class tickets; however, constituent organizations that invite/sponsor a member of Congress' appearance at an event are among the few folks/entities who will directly purchase domestic first class tickets.
    • Members of Congress do what many business principals do: knowing they're going to fly to XYZ on, say, Thursday, they buy multiple Y or B class tickets so they can get on whatever be the next flight going when they finish doing whatever they're doing Thursday before leaving for the airport. Depending on what airport they're flying from -- mostly if the flight departs a non-hub airport -- those coach fare class tickets are quite likely to get them an upgrade.
  • International first class passengers --> These folks, including members of Congress, are a mix of (a) upgrades from business class and (b) direct buyers of first class tickets. Congresspersons will buy first class international tickets.
FWIW, even though Rep. Ruiz introduced H.R.5232 - Coach-Only Airfare for Capitol Hill Act of 2018 and obtained several GOP co-sponsors, the bill went nowhere. I can't really say why it did, for, with its section 301 "carve out," it was more about apparent frugality than actual frugality.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Xelor said:
I guess I don't quite understand your point for mentioning that members of Congress fly first class.
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Oh that? The reason I mentioned First Class is because in most cases, if you are flying First Class, you're almost always automatically put in TSA Pre-check. There are some exceptional outliers but not many.

So it was germaine to my point about how, with the TSA shortage, Pre-check is being impacted, and thus a lot of higher ups who normally don't have to grind their way through the long lines will now get a taste of how the other half live.
And that will result in increased pressure.

And if this goes on too long, TSA shortages will reach crisis proportions, air travel will be severely impacted, and so will business itself, and tourism, and a lot of other parts of the economy.

Trump is playing Russian Roulette and everybody knows it.
 
Re: Has it struck you as odd that certain "essential" yet unpaid gov't workers haven't gone on strik

Checkerboard Strangler said:
Oh that? The reason I mentioned First Class is because in most cases, if you are flying First Class, you're almost always automatically put in TSA Pre-check. There are some exceptional outliers but not many.

So it was germaine to my point about how, with the TSA shortage, Pre-check is being impacted, and thus a lot of higher ups who normally don't have to grind their way through the long lines will now get a taste of how the other half live.
And that will result in increased pressure.

And if this goes on too long, TSA shortages will reach crisis proportions, air travel will be severely impacted, and so will business itself, and tourism, and a lot of other parts of the economy.

Trump is playing Russian Roulette and everybody knows it.
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Red:
Well, that I agree with. (I have my doubts about whether everybody knows it. By my reckoning, Trumpkins don't.)
 
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