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Thread: Climate scientists give clear warning

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    Re: Climate scientists give clear warning

    Quote Originally Posted by expat_panama View Post
    When the general non-political public spends money dealing with this process they work with numbers. For example, they decide on a target room temp, they look up the historic average incoming radiation energy and they choose how money they want to spend dealing with it. A mechanical engineer makes around $80K per year.

    When it comes to Federal climate change spending, Ideological factions just have to say something both emotionally provocative and vague like "...the wheels will be set inevitably in motion very quickly if we don't do something soon." In 2017 Al Gore had a net worth of over $300 million.
    The UN recently gave us a concrete date, not a vague warning at all. Besides, who gives a **** how much money Al Gore has? That's irrelevant to the issue. Global warming is not caused by Al Gore's money, it's caused by carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

    If what you're arguing is that being aware denotes a responsibility to an issue, I agree. However, there are a lot of Repubs who play stupid so they can absolve themselves of any guilt for contributing, personally or politically to the problem. They are much worse examples of humanity than Al Gore, who has only done a great deal to create a public understanding of the mechanics of climate change.

    Would you be happier if he were a poor shlub complaining about fossil fuels? No, everyone would just dismiss the facts all the same.

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    Re: Climate scientists give clear warning

    Quote Originally Posted by D_NATURED View Post
    ...who gives a **** how much money Al Gore has? That's irrelevant to the issue. Global warming is not caused by Al Gore's money, it's caused by carbon dioxide in the atmosphere.

    If what you're arguing is that being aware denotes a responsibility to an issue, I agree. However...
    The answer is that a lot of us care about Al Gore making tons of money by selling vagueness --and the reason we care is that we need to know what the markets are doing, what's selling, and what folks are buying. Today the market's are soaring and what I'm seeing is that companies that grind out numberless doom'n'gloom have become hotter than Facebook & Apple. mho.

    We can both agree that acting on awareness is a good idea but on this thread the only thing that we can be aware of is that the thermodynamics on the table here is nothing like the science used when folks are actually getting something done. When we buy a toaster oven you want something that will use a KW to heat your bagel to 90C in 2 min. When we talk AGW it's the biosphere getting maybe 1.5C hotter now than 1850, or its 1.0 hotter than 1720, or not.

    No matter. Unlike the bagel we have no idea what the biosphere temp is now or what it was in 1850 (or 1720) but what we do know is that as long as we avoid numbers we make a lot more money than we would if we sold toaster ovens.

    Is America great or what!!!

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    Re: Climate scientists give clear warning

    Quote Originally Posted by expat_panama View Post
    The answer is that a lot of us care about Al Gore making tons of money by selling vagueness --and the reason we care is that we need to know what the markets are doing, what's selling, and what folks are buying. Today the market's are soaring and what I'm seeing is that companies that grind out numberless doom'n'gloom have become hotter than Facebook & Apple. mho.

    We can both agree that acting on awareness is a good idea but on this thread the only thing that we can be aware of is that the thermodynamics on the table here is nothing like the science used when folks are actually getting something done. When we buy a toaster oven you want something that will use a KW to heat your bagel to 90C in 2 min. When we talk AGW it's the biosphere getting maybe 1.5C hotter now than 1850, or its 1.0 hotter than 1720, or not.

    No matter. Unlike the bagel we have no idea what the biosphere temp is now or what it was in 1850 (or 1720) but what we do know is that as long as we avoid numbers we make a lot more money than we would if we sold toaster ovens.

    Is America great or what!!!
    We know from ice cores what the CO2 levels were in the past. We also know the effect that gas has in creating the greenhouse effect and how it reflects heat energy back to Earth while not being a barrier to UV energy. We know all that. Furthermore, some overwhelming majority of published climate scientists agree climate change is happening and it's OUR fault.

    Al gore's profits are NOTHING compared to what is made, in the oil fields and in Washington, from the "controversy" persisting this long. If Al is immoral to make money from alerting people to reality, those who obscure the facts to make money, at the expense of human life, are way worse. Why aren't you mentioning them?

    Is America great? Sure, we're great at allowing our "soaring markets" to distract us from our plummeting future. So what if some day we decide that we could have driven our V8s for much longer, what have we lost? We can always bring them back. The alternative, though, if the scientists are actually right on this like they are on nearly everything else, and we persist to deny because we feel that our demise stimulates the economy, we have failed irretrievably. Where is the wisdom in nit picking the best guess we have when so much is at stake?

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    Re: Climate scientists give clear warning

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    Here’s the problem though, they are claiming the risk is just as dire as ever but that the signs have been pushed back 100 years. It’s essentially an invisible threat that they can use to justify any policy they want.
    Except that (a) the things predicted have been happening, (b) predictions have been getting more accurate.

    The real problem is that you lot act like science isn't a process, that either a theory is proven correct utterly and never questioned, or it isn't worth anything at all. No. The core of understood AGW has been growing steadily and surely. The fact that we don't know everything doesn't mean we should sit paralyzed in inaction as if we knew nothing, yet that is always the way it is used.

    The second equally real problem is that people find it so easy to brush off because no matter when the predictions for the worst are, those predictions are always after the brusher-off's death. Kicking the can down the road is bad unless it benefits the kicker.




    And the idea that scientists swarm for lucrative grants by bull****ting climate science? Seriously? Nobody who thinks there's some kind of money-related conspiracy here - on top of things I can't say about them - must never have known someone who worked in a lab and had to seek grant funding from any agency.

    The idea that Democrats are deliberately doing this to transfer wealth away from America (surely you remember this said under Obama)? It's painfully absurd.

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    Re: Climate scientists give clear warning

    Sadly the fossil fuel companies have had and still have a huge negative influence on our societies For example that fossil fuel companies understood climate risks by the 1980s, yet spent huge sums to sow uncertainty and misinformation about climate science.

    https://www.smokeandfumes.org/fumes/moments/0

    While today the fossil fuel companies have a huge influence over the Trump administration.

    “The memo was written by Robert E. Murray, a longtime Trump supporter who donated $300,000 to the president’s inauguration. In it, Mr. Murray, the head of Murray Energy, presented Mr. Trump with a wish list of environmental rollbacks just weeks after the inauguration.

    Nearly a year later, the White House and federal agencies have completed or are on track to fulfill most of the 16 detailed requests, even with Monday’s decision by federal regulators to reject a proposal by Energy Secretary Rick Perry to subsidize struggling coal and nuclear plants.”


    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/09/c...rump-memo.html

    “When the Trump administration laid out a plan this year that would eventually allow cars to emit more pollution, automakers, the obvious winners from the proposal, balked. The changes, they said, went too far even for them.

    But it turns out that there was a hidden beneficiary of the plan that was pushing for the changes all along: the nation’s oil industry.

    In Congress, on Facebook and in statehouses nationwide, Marathon Petroleum, the country’s largest refiner, worked with powerful oil-industry groups and a conservative policy network financed by the billionaire industrialist Charles G. Koch to run a stealth campaign to roll back car emissions standards,a New York Times investigation has found”


    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/13/c...-industry.html

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    Re: Climate scientists give clear warning

    Quote Originally Posted by expat_panama View Post
    ...we have no idea what the biosphere temp is now or what it was in 1850...
    Quote Originally Posted by D_NATURED View Post
    We know from ice cores what the CO2 levels were in the past. We also know the effect that gas has in creating the greenhouse effect and how it reflects heat energy back to Earth while not being a barrier to UV energy. We know all that...
    That's all well and good, we actually know other things too, like (from NASA):

    "...the average global temperature on Earth has increased by about 0.8° Celsius (1.4° Fahrenheit) since 1880."

    --and at the same time, all agree that it's impossible to know with any useful degree of acuracy the average temperature of the earth now --much less the 1880 temp. A lot of folks don't have a problem w/ that when it comes to their spending my mony on things they like. I disagree so my vote went to letting me donate my money to my favorite charities.

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    Re: Climate scientists give clear warning

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Person View Post
    Except that (a) the things predicted have been happening, (b) predictions have been getting more accurate.

    The real problem is that you lot act like science isn't a process, that either a theory is proven correct utterly and never questioned, or it isn't worth anything at all. No. The core of understood AGW has been growing steadily and surely. The fact that we don't know everything doesn't mean we should sit paralyzed in inaction as if we knew nothing, yet that is always the way it is used.

    The second equally real problem is that people find it so easy to brush off because no matter when the predictions for the worst are, those predictions are always after the brusher-off's death. Kicking the can down the road is bad unless it benefits the kicker.




    And the idea that scientists swarm for lucrative grants by bull****ting climate science? Seriously? Nobody who thinks there's some kind of money-related conspiracy here - on top of things I can't say about them - must never have known someone who worked in a lab and had to seek grant funding from any agency.

    The idea that Democrats are deliberately doing this to transfer wealth away from America (surely you remember this said under Obama)? It's painfully absurd.
    And a third problem is that C02 producing energy companies spend an enormous amount of money lobbying against anything that might threaten their profits.

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    Re: Climate scientists give clear warning

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    Here is the problem. They have been saying that my entire life and despite the us increasing in population by 30% roughly 100 million people we are producing the same amount of carbon. So we clearly have made strides and by doing very little. Also every prediction about rising temperatures based on carbon in the atmosphere has been way too high. We clearly don’t understand exactly how carbon and warming work together.

    So anyone making a doomsday prediction I simply don’t find credible
    Your analogy is like Dr telling, you have cancer and you should get treatment, and your response...I feel fine and you said that to me that few months ago and I still am alive...so I simply don’t find it credible!

    However by the time you do actually feel sick, no amount of treatment will help you and you will win the Darwin Award!


    Climate prediction are very complicated, far more than weather predictions, however the prediction are correct, average summer by summer is getting hotter, weather has become more erratic, storms are more frequent and more massive, the problem is at some point it will be too late to do anything.

    and like cancer you can begin treatment early and it may or may not help but chances are much higher that it could help, or do nothing and die.

    you and many like you have opted to do nothing, except unlike cancer, your ignorance and apathy will affect everybody on the planet.


    Diving Mullah

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    Re: Climate scientists give clear warning

    The ten worst climate-linked disasters in 2018 caused at least $84.8 billion worth of damage.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKCN1OQ11T

    There we now also are starting to run out of time in limiting the devastating effects of manmade global warming.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/enviro...-a8574731.html

    Even if there are still hope for example that over 150 of the world’s most influential companies have committed to source 100 percent renewable electricity. While the price of renewables have dropped so much that even oil companies invests in renewable energy.

    Exxon knows renewables are cheaper, even if Trump doesn't

    Even if we sadly still have politicians like Donald Trump that wants to spend billions of dollars propping up coal plans instead of taking action to combat manmade global warming.

    https://www.economist.com/graphic-de...d-power-plants

    Trump also for example wants to see new regulation that makes it possible for cars to emit more pollution.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/13/c...-industry.html

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    Re: Climate scientists give clear warning

    Quote Originally Posted by expat_panama View Post
    That's all well and good, we actually know other things too, like (from NASA):

    "...the average global temperature on Earth has increased by about 0.8° Celsius (1.4° Fahrenheit) since 1880."

    --and at the same time, all agree that it's impossible to know with any useful degree of acuracy the average temperature of the earth now --much less the 1880 temp. A lot of folks don't have a problem w/ that when it comes to their spending my mony on things they like. I disagree so my vote went to letting me donate my money to my favorite charities.
    For me, I guess it comes down to faith. I have faith that money has not corrupted the scientific community as much as I KNOW it's corrupted politics and capitalism. Besides, if I had to guess, I'd say it's probably too late to alter the course of what's begun. This isn't about spending your money on things I like, though. That's a very juvenile, albeit typically conservative, way of looking at climate change, from a fiscal butthurt perspective. This is about preserving something beautiful, like many of the species that now inhabit Earth.

    You realize, don't you, that change is not synonymous with loss. New markets and new ways of screwing people will be created by alternative energy technology and fighting climate change. Therefore, my conservative brothers can find a promise of opportunities inherent in this effort. Will some of today's oil barons and Saudi royalty be challenged to find a new job? Yes, but so what? The idea that we should sacrifice our planet to maintain job security for entitled asshats is, to me, ridiculous. It is only the politicians in their pockets who have anything to fear from a shifting economy. For the rest of us, it's a reason to be hopeful.

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