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1. Trump is in over his head

OscarLevant said:
All presidents make their money AFTER they are in office, through speaking fees, books, etc. Presidents are vastly underpaid compared to their private counterparts. This is understandable.

That's not corruption. Trump is doing it DURING his presidency. That IS corruption.

You need to sniff the poo that is in front of you, apparently you can't smell it.
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Not only that. No one knows Trump's REAL net worth. We will find out plenty from his tax returns though.
 
iguanaman said:
You know the answer. We are not in a declared war with Russia. We don't yet know what evidence Flynn provided that made prosecutors do what they did. I suspect you don't want to know either.
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Well, you would be wrong about that but what else is new. If he is guilty of crimes against this country, he would have been charged by now. Plus since you clearly think he gave evidence against Trump, what do you think he told Mueller?
 
Fletch said:
Well, you would be wrong about that but what else is new. If he is guilty of crimes against this country, he would have been charged by now. Plus since you clearly think he gave evidence against Trump, what do you think he told Mueller?
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Being a secret foreign agent while accepting an appointment to the NSA is pretty guilty of "crimes against this country" don't you think? Is there anything you won't forgive to cover for this criminal President? I don't know what he told Mueller but I do understand your concern and I bet Trump does too.
 
iguanaman said:
Being a secret foreign agent
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Unregistered but publicly a commercial representative. That's bad enough. No need to phrase it as a spy.
 
Grokmaster said:
Economy booming, record low unemployment, ISIS crushed, better trade deals, confronting unfair trade practices, and you would think that the country was burning to the ground to hear the Fake news/Lying Left tell it.
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Yes and El Chapo donated heavily to Sinaloa schools and churches, but he was still sent to prison for his vast crimes, which are no more fake news than Trump's crimes are.

You need to get your head out of the sand
 
OscarLevant said:
2. He's not up to the job

3. He's risen to the level of his own incompetence ( The Peter Principle )

4. His vast crimes are becoming known

5. He's becoming the pariah of the world

6. He's becoming unhinged, erratic, delusional

7. America is in deep do do
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Yes I agree. Trump is in way over his head. His personal behavior is atrocious. Yet it is his policies that the right are in love with and they will forgive pretty much anything as long as policies they like get cranked out.
Fully a third of the country will support him through any personal failing because they like his policies.
 
OscarLevant said:
Well, Trump has certainly helped himself financially.


But, of course, you don't care if he is corrupt.
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The weak minded see power...at any cost...as confirmation of a leader worth following...the strong, the abusive, etc etc. They find tyranny is comforting and those are the people that need to 'be told what to do' to feel secure. Morality has nothing to do with it. Nor quality of leadership and in this case, even lack of results seems to matter. Just a big show of bluster and unfortunately, access to alot of dangerous policies and weapons.
 
Fletch said:
Try to hold yourself together for another 22 1/2 months and you can vote in a replacement. Thats how things work in this country. You vote a guy in for 4 years. If you dont like what he is doing, you can vote him out. If you like what he is doing, you can vote him back.
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I'll get back to you after the Mueller report and the ensuing consequences
 
code1211 said:
Flynn is the person that plead to lying to the FBI. Nothing else.

The plea was entered after the FBI extorted it by threatening to also bankrupt and harass Flynn's son as they had done to Flynn.

This was not justice. This was an inquisition by a true believer.

If this was not such a tragedy, it would be comical.


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The court transcripts reveal that the judge asking many times in several different ways if he was satisfied with his counsel and his experience with the FBI that it was fair and that his guilty plea was just and based on the truth. He answered yes to every question

Apparently you are living in a bubble of unreality
 
Fletch said:
Thats exactly right. The idea that 'America is in deep do do" is just Chicken Little Liberalism.
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Yeah the right-wingers said that about Democrats warnings of Hoover and the Roaring Twenties just before the American economy crashed in 1929 which gave us the Great Depression
 
iguanaman said:
Being a secret foreign agent while accepting an appointment to the NSA is pretty guilty of "crimes against this country" don't you think?
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I dont know, is it? I mean he hasnt been charged with that and the prosecutors are suggesting zero prison time for what he pled to.
Is there anything you won't forgive to cover for this criminal President?
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What crime am I covering for? The crime Flynn committed that the prosecution asked for zero prison time for? That crime? Or is it the crime that Papadopoulous spent 12 days in jail for? That crime? Or is it the crime crime that Carter Page committed that he has not been charged with? That crime? How about you identify an actual crime worthy of anyones attention.
I don't know what he told Mueller but I do understand your concern and I bet Trump does too.
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I am not the least bit concerned about it. I dont think Flynn has anything to tell about Trump and I dont think Mueller has anything on Trump either. Why? Because there has been zero evidence of a crime after 2 years of looking.
 
OscarLevant said:
Yeah the right-wingers said that about Democrats warnings of Hoover and the Roaring Twenties just before the American economy crashed in 1929 which gave us the Great Depression
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When you gotta go back a century to find an instant where dems were actually right about something, you got nothing. And thats with me accepting your premise.
 
Fletch said:
I dont know, is it? I mean he hasnt been charged with that and the prosecutors are suggesting zero prison time for what he pled to. What crime am I covering for? The crime Flynn committed that the prosecution asked for zero prison time for? That crime? Or is it the crime that Papadopoulous spent 12 days in jail for? That crime? Or is it the crime crime that Carter Page committed that he has not been charged with? That crime? How about you identify an actual crime worthy of anyones attention.
I am not the least bit concerned about it. I dont think Flynn has anything to tell about Trump and I dont think Mueller has anything on Trump either. Why? Because there has been zero evidence of a crime after 2 years of looking.
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Ignorance is bliss and we don't have Mueller's report so that is all you have. What you "think" is meaningless. Trump's behavior toward Mueller does not indicate that he is innocent so I have that. Otherwise he would have been anxious to cooperate with Mueller instead of stonewalling and claiming he is partisan. Someone who is afraid of the facts always tries to discredit the messenger.
 
Fletch said:
And just what do you think Mueller is going to find?
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What we suspected from the start. That he is compromised by Putin due to his conspiracy to defraud the American people using by his help in the election. It never has changed unlike the stories Trump and his people have told about their involvement with the Kremlin and it's agents.
 
iguanaman said:
What we suspected from the start. That he is compromised by Putin due to his conspiracy to defraud the American people using his help.
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And how do you think this played out?
 
Fletch said:
And how do you think this played out?
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Exactly how it appears and has appeared from the summer of 2016 on. Trump and his associates denials are being exposed as lies like ducks in a row. Their really has never been any doubt and the most obvious conclusions are most always the truth. The irony is that accepting and participating in the Russians help is not even the only way that Trump cheated to win the election. The illegal hush money is also cheating by again participating in yet another conspiracy to defraud voters. There is little doubt that if the truth was known before the election he would not be in office.
 
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iguanaman said:
Exactly how it appears and has appeared from the summer of 2016 on. Trump and his associates denials are being exposed as lies like ducks in a row.
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That doesnt answer the question. The question is, what, specifically, did Trump do and who helped him do it?
 
Fletch said:
That doesnt answer the question. The question is, what, specifically, did Trump do and who helped him do it?
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The irony is that accepting and participating in the Russians help is not even the only way that Trump cheated to win the election. The illegal hush money is also cheating by again participating in yet another conspiracy to defraud voters. There is little doubt that if the truth about either of these crimes was known before the election he would not be in office.
 
It seems rather pointless to argue and demand proof from one another when 1. There is plenty of publicly available evidence supporting this investigation and 2. The report isn't in yet

Nobody can prove one way or another right here and now on these forums that the president did what he is accused of - conspiring with Russians to help win the election - with the resources at hand.

What these resources (court filings and procedures, findings, verdicts, pleas and convictions; public documents and very public tweets and interviews) tell us is there is more than enough reason to suspect that the Trump campaign colluded with foreign agents. Generally how it was done is also easy to speculate on: the Russians offered help and his people met with them to discuss it. The minutiae of that, we'll have to wait for.

At this point it is not possible to claim it's an open and shut case; but nor is it realistic to maintain the investigation has turned up 'nothing', because they haven't made it all publicly available, and what's already been made public is certainly a lot more than 'nothing': meetings, contacts, phone records, paper trails and the ever changing story played out in real time in interviews and tweets.

Whatever it is, it is unlikely to make the president look good (because again what we've already seen looks very bad for him), but we will just have to wait and see.

Until then demanding PROOF TM from one another or the denying obvious evidence that is a matter of public record is just stubborn bickering.
 
iguanaman said:
The irony is that accepting and participating in the Russians help is not even the only way that Trump cheated to win the election. The illegal hush money is also cheating by again participating in yet another conspiracy to defraud voters. There is little doubt that if the truth about either of these crimes was known before the election he would not be in office.
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So you are convinced he is guilty of conspiracy with Russia but you cant even venture a guess as to what this conspiracy looked like or who took part in it. Got it. And this after 2+ years of investigation. You guys have become the new 9/11 Truthers.
 
uptower said:
It seems rather pointless to argue and demand proof from one another when 1. There is plenty of publicly available evidence supporting this investigation and 2. The report isn't in yet

Nobody can prove one way or another right here and now on these forums that the president did what he is accused of - conspiring with Russians to help win the election - with the resources at hand.

What these resources (court filings and procedures, findings, verdicts, pleas and convictions; public documents and very public tweets and interviews) tell us is there is more than enough reason to suspect that the Trump campaign colluded with foreign agents. Generally how it was done is also easy to speculate on: the Russians offered help and his people met with them to discuss it. The minutiae of that, we'll have to wait for.

At this point it is not possible to claim it's an open and shut case; but nor is it realistic to maintain the investigation has turned up 'nothing', because they haven't made it all publicly available, and what's already been made public is certainly a lot more than 'nothing': meetings, contacts, phone records, paper trails and the ever changing story played out in real time in interviews and tweets.

Whatever it is, it is unlikely to make the president look good (because again what we've already seen looks very bad for him), but we will just have to wait and see.

Until then demanding PROOF TM from one another or the denying obvious evidence that is a matter of public record is just stubborn bickering.
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I am not demanding proof of anything. I am asking people to speculate about how they think this supposed conspiracy went down and who was involved. To date, no one has been willing or able to do that.
 
gulfman said:
Obama was worthless and we put up with him for 8 years.We can put up with Trump for 6 more.
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As sad as it is, Trump is more destructive than Obama. Not sure we actually could put up with him for 6 more years.
 
Fletch said:
So you are convinced he is guilty of conspiracy with Russia......
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Russia helped Trump win the election without question :yes:

Trumps campaign was compromised, Cambridge Analytica, Wikileaks, Fancy Bear/Cozy Bear hacking, Trump aides talking to Russians about removing sanctions, Trump Tower meeting, etc.

The list goes on and on. Mueller's Report is going to make for some reading this country has never seen.
 
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