Schumer says Dems won’t budge on Trump wall demand

Liberal piece of garbage

Trump made America better than Obama

VanceMack said:

Smartest thing for him to do is utilize discretionary spending and allocate 5-7 billion towards national security and just build the damn thing. Use the military...labor is paid for.

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LOL, where in the budget is Trump's 'discretionary' account. My dad used to call it his "mad money." I wasn't aware the budget had such an account....Also, the idea of making our military manual laborers building his stupid wall is a ridiculous notion.

Tanngrisnir said:

No, that's not the basis for Trump's position, nor is any border wall actually a national security issue. How silly.

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yawn...

Okay. If you say so.

:roll:

jnug said:

You will have to show me the dem not engaged in business doings that actually prosper from illegal immigration that is espousing open borders. In fact there are as many Republicans that fit that profile that are open borders proponents as dems. Corporate greed is a partisanship all its own.

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I don't deny your premise, but I have run into a few young and (to me) naive college kids & millennials that did indeed ideologically argue for open borders. They're a small minority, but I have met them.

Beaudreaux said:

The amount of the 2018 appropriations level for the wall will not be enough in 2019 to complete the wall, and once the Democrats take over the House, no further funding for the wall will EVER pass Congress, so this is the only remaining chance to get it done.

And, Trump/Cornyn/McConnell agreed to DACA protection reinstatement if Schumer would agree to fully fund the wall. In 2006 he voted for the Secure Fence Act of 2006.

What changed that made him be against a wall/fence/etc. now? Trump, that's what.

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Umm, schumer and pelosi agreed to fully fund the wall with $25b if the legislation included protection for dreamers. Trump agreed to do so

Until he changed his mind

Beaudreaux said:

Of course they won't. They'd rather be just as immature as Trump so they can hurt Trump, without any regard or care that they hurt the country as well. All they seem to care about on this issue is hurting Trump, not governing.

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Speaking of not governing, the GOP has controlled all levers of federal government for the past two years and yet ..... no $25 billion for Trumps Folly.

But then again, the GOP was very busy trying to strip 24 million Americans of healthcare insurance and passing a tax cut bonanza for the wealthy.

Now the wall is a "shut-the-government-down" necessity? Sorry, I don't buy it. Besides, walls don't even work unless lethal force is authorized.

Why do we want open borders because it is political correctness? You know why Canada has open borders? Because we don’t have thugs yes I call those people thugs

JasperL said:

What I'd like to see before supporting Trump's $5 billion demand, and concluding that the $1.4B being offered, on top of last year's $1.4B on wall maintenance and upgrades is not sufficient, is something, anything, to indicate things like, 1) where will it go, 2) what will it buy, 3) why is it needed, 4) is Trump's plan that I cannot find the most cost effective option, and more.

You're calling Democrats irresponsible but the GOP leadership also failed to fund Trump's Great Wall. Why is that? Do the GOP want him to fail and that's their main goal?

Seriously, why should the country hear Trump demand his $5 billion and without any evidence or substantive case being made that I can find for this money agree that, Sure, of course Mr. President, you need that money NOW or we support you shutting down government? I can't even pretend to argue that case because I have no idea what I'd be arguing FOR except to do Trump's pulled from his fat rear end bidding. It doesn't help that Trump has been lying his ass off about what the $1.4B has accomplished on the border. In short, I don't trust Trump for anything, and I've seen no case made by anyone else for this money.

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I hear ya. And I, too, would like more information.

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not supporting diddly dick that Trump wants. I'm supporting border security, in whatever form that needs to take, be it a wall or fence or combination of a hundred different things.

I don't necessarily support the $5 Billion either. Full time professionals in the federal government that keep their jobs regardless of the political party in charge have designed the border security system that includes a wall in part. What I don't know, is that those same professionals agree that $5B in the number.

I do know that $1.6 is not enough, given current cost expenditures to date compared to work accomplished, based on those same professionals that I've heard being interviewed - no, I don't have a link, it's just what I've heard more than once from non-partisan bureaucrats.

The problem I have that hovers over the rest, is that unless the Democrats have a competing number and facts to back it up, the only number we have to stand upon is the $5B, and although I don't like it, without evidence to the contrary, it is what it is.

The Democrats just saying no without empirical evidence to the contrary, on this one (border security), isn't a good path for a major party to take a stand on.

For the record, I'm not supporting Trump on this. I'm supporting national and border security, as well as controlled, reasonable, effective immigration policy that starts with a secure border.

Rogue Valley said:

Speaking of not governing, the GOP has controlled all levers of federal government for the past two years and yet ..... no $25 billion for Trumps Folly.

But then again, the GOP was very busy trying to strip 24 million Americans of healthcare insurance and passing a tax cut bonanza for the wealthy.

Now the wall is a "shut-the-government-down" necessity? Sorry, I don't buy it. Besides, walls don't even work unless lethal force is authorized.

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The Senate takes 60 votes to get this passed - no matter what - and has for the past two years and the Democrats have blocked it for all of those two years. That's why this is a last ditch effort before the House is taken over by the Democrats. Everything else in your post has nothing to do with the topic of border security.

sangha said:

Umm, schumer and pelosi agreed to fully fund the wall with $25b if the legislation included protection for dreamers. Trump agreed to do so

Until he changed his mind

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What if he doesn’t change his mind? Add that to the impeachment document! Give me a break! Honestly, every democrat is a disgrace to America! I DON’T CARE ABOUT OBAMAS SPEECH THAT ISNT US!

Beaudreaux said:

The Senate takes 60 votes to get this passed - no matter what - and has for the past two years and the Democrats have blocked it for all of those two years. That's why this is a last ditch effort before the House is taken over by the Democrats. Everything else in your post has nothing to do with the topic of border security.

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Budgets only require 51 votes

Chomsky said:

I like a fair amount of progressive and liberal positions, but the bolded is one that blows me away. I'm not sure how large or persistent the open borders crowd is, because leadership does not espouse open borders, at least publicly. But it is the one thing that embarrasses me about coming back to the Dem party.

Of course joining the GOP & Trump would embarrass me more, so I guess I lose in that department no matter what.

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I can only speak for myself, but there are to me two big issues. The first is securing the border, and I really don't object at all to efforts to get that done. I've never opposed more agents, or them apprehending border crossers, or barriers of various sorts, including "walls" and high fences. I can't know for sure, but my guess is most Democrats, if not "liberals" support a secure border. That's not to say Democrats support the Great Wall of Trump...

The other big group are the MANY related issues involving the current population of 'illegals.' It's here where the big differences are with illegals. If we implemented laws with teeth against criminal employers who hire illegals (like Devin Nunes' family, or Trump's org), and at the same time ramped up deportations, I might not like it but I'd have to agree at least it's a coherent and mostly fair approach. I have a serious problem with rhetoric that figuratively spits on illegals while the big donor class kills mandatory e-Verify in the GOP bill this summer, because they love hiring cheap, hard working illegal labor.

Don't like sanctuary cities? Fine, get rid of sanctuary EMPLOYERS instead of wink and nod when they kill any effort to hold criminal employers accountable, because we all sort of accept that it's a good thing to have illegals pick fruit and do ****ty jobs, like clean our toilets and pick up our hotel rooms and cut up chicken parts 9 hours a day, we just don't like it when they take decent jobs... So if you're going to rip apart a family because illegal dad got into a fender bender, OK that is fine, now rip apart that family when dad hires an illegal framing crew because they are cheaper and it pays for their kids' ski boat. Fine the crap out of him, send HIM to jail for a few months or something.

What kills me and a lot of liberals I think is just the massive hypocrisy. We all KNOW that the illegal problem isn't a 'problem' at all for the donor class and therefore politicians in both parties - it's a system working exactly as planned. So when we as a country acknowledge that and deal with it, I'll be willing to accept a lot more punitive punishment for the 'illegals' who are just pawns here. They are doing what our policies are designed to accomplish, which is make powerful people a lot of money.

sangha said:

Umm, schumer and pelosi agreed to fully fund the wall with $25b if the legislation included protection for dreamers. Trump agreed to do so

Until he changed his mind

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That's true, then it changed again, and Schumer and Pelosi were evidently not prepared for that and that's how we find ourselves here now. Cornyn and McConnel (and Trump) agreed to reinstating DACA protections if the Democrats would agree to agree on what they had already agreed upon. But, it appears to me that hating Trump and screwing over Trump (and the country in the process) is what's important to the Democrats right now.

Trump was a dick when he went back on his promise and agreement he made in front of the cameras. I can understand why Schumer and Pelosi want to screw him over. But the Senate Majority Whip and the Senate Majority Leader have agreed to reinstating DACA protections, so right now, it's all on them.

sangha said:

Budgets only require 51 votes

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You're correct (Reconciliation only takes 50+1), but the border security bill is not a budget bill, which is why Trump wants to add it as a rider to the DoD budget vote and have the military build it. The border security bill is an Appropriations Bill and they take 60 votes.

Edit: Trump is also asking that McConnell use the Nuclear Option to change Senate rules to allow for a simple majority on all legislation from now on. I am not in favor of that at all. It should take a super majority to pass legislation. It shouldn't be easy.

Beaudreaux said:

That's true, then it changed again

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That was Trump and the republicans who changed it. IOW, they reneged when they had what they said they wanted. They could not take Yes for an answer

, and Schumer and Pelosi were evidently not prepared for that and that's how we find ourselves here now. Cornyn and McConnel (and Trump) agreed to reinstating DACA protections if the Democrats would agree to agree on what they had already agreed upon.

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Yes, they Cornyn and McConnel and Trump agreed...until they didnt

You are just repeating what I said

From the uber-liberal CNBC
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/20/how...ly-helped-to-kill-deal-to-avoid-shutdown.html

TheRepublican said:

Why do we want open borders because it is political correctness? You know why Canada has open borders? Because we don’t have thugs yes I call those people thugs

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Canada does not have open borders.

Next whackadoodle assertion, please.

Beaudreaux said:

You're correct (Reconciliation only takes 50+1), but the border security bill is not a budget bill, which is why Trump wants to add it as a rider to the DoD budget vote and have the military build it. The border security bill is an Appropriations Bill and they take 60 votes.

Edit: Trump is also asking that McConnell use the Nuclear Option to change Senate rules to allow for a simple majority on all legislation from now on. I am not in favor of that at all. It should take a super majority to pass legislation. It shouldn't be easy.

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Funding for a wall is NOT a budget matter so it should not be included in a budget?

On what planet?

Beaudreaux said:

For the record, I'm not supporting Trump on this. I'm supporting national and border security, as well as controlled, reasonable, effective immigration policy that starts with a secure border.

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Fair enough, and I just clipped most of it for brevity, not because I don't agree.

But this is the big problem with a guy in the WH who doesn't have any respect for really anything involving how government actually works. He doesn't make a case, produce a plan, because at his core he just wants his Wall, because he wants it. He's impervious to studies or facts or alternative arguments because he doesn't care what they show.

So I doubt if there is anyone in the Trump administration who knows what this money will do because it's not something that exists. And he can't send people out to support this non-existent plan that as far as I can tell consists of "$5 billion!" scribbled on a note card, so he has really no effective allies who can make a case to people like me.

I get that government studies are often worthless, and are designed to come to some result, etc. but we often compare government to the real world and I can't imagine a company where the CEO goes to the board or the owner and says, "Give me $5 billion" to say, build a beautiful new fabulous plant, and that's the proposal. Where? Who knows. What are the alternatives? Don't care! It's going to be awesome boss! Give me the money!

The problem I have that hovers over the rest, is that unless the Democrats have a competing number and facts to back it up, the only number we have to stand upon is the $5B, and although I don't like it, without evidence to the contrary, it is what it is.

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I guess I don't see that as the correct assignment of burden. Trump ran on securing the border, and it's Trump who is in charge of border security, with an agency he heads with all kinds of experts in getting that job done, and it's natural for the person responsible for something to make the case to the rest of us, including Congress, what he needs to do that job.

sangha said:

That was Trump and the republicans who changed it. IOW, they reneged when they had what they said they wanted. They could not take Yes for an answer


Yes, they Cornyn and McConnel and Trump agreed...until they didnt

You are just repeating what I said

From the uber-liberal CNBC
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/20/how...ly-helped-to-kill-deal-to-avoid-shutdown.html

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Not exactly correct. You're looking at January 20th. Here's January 23rd: Sen. John Cornyn: There's a deal to be had on DACA, border security Here's where the Democrats let it start to die a slow death in February: Cornyn to Dems: Clock is ticking for DACA counteroffer

On a side note, there's no need to make statements like "From the uber-liberal CNBC" to me when debating facts. I thought we were having a calm polite debate. I still am. Let me know if I'm wrong in that.

sangha said:

Funding for a wall is NOT a budget matter so it should not be included in a budget?

On what planet?

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I'm sure Trump would be happy to apply all political donations he receives for his wall.

sangha said:

Funding for a wall is NOT a budget matter so it should not be included in a budget?

On what planet?

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*** laughing *** On planet Senate, I would guess, based on their own rules, as it would appear. Appropriations bills are not budget bills, in their rules.

Tanngrisnir said:

Canada does not have open borders.

Next whackadoodle assertion, please.

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Do you hear that sympathizers!? Why don’t you people go cry over that

Beaudreaux said:

Not exactly correct. You're looking at January 20th. Here's January 23rd: Sen. John Cornyn: There's a deal to be had on DACA, border security Here's where the Democrats let it start to die a slow death in February: Cornyn to Dems: Clock is ticking for DACA counteroffer

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That was AFTER Trump reneged on the deal. If you went into a store and asked about the price of something, and they gave you one price then, and when you got to the register they told you it was going to cost twice as much as they said before, would you go back to that store if they called you up and asked you to come back because they had a great offer for you?

On a side note, there's no need to make statements like "From the uber-liberal CNBC" to me when debating facts. I thought we were having a calm polite debate. I still am. Let me know if I'm wrong in that.

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You are right. Sometimes, I am too snarky for my own good

Beaudreaux said:

*** laughing *** On planet Senate, I would guess, based on their own rules, as it would appear. Appropriations bills are not budget bills, in their rules.

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Before Congress can vote on an appropriations bill, they first have to pass a budget.

There has been nothing stopping the republican house and senate from budgeting for a wall. They have not done so because the republicans themselves are divided on the issue, as the article from CNBC implies.

JasperL said:

LOL, where in the budget is Trump's 'discretionary' account. My dad used to call it his "mad money." I wasn't aware the budget had such an account....

Also, the idea of making our military manual laborers building his stupid wall is a ridiculous notion.

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The US Army Corps of Engineers do construction. You should read up on them. I don't think they believe their efforts are ridiculous.