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Pearl Harbor day

Blue:
Here is the section of post 5, from which the above quoted "tan" passage comes:

  1. Why, in citing the "tan" passage, did you elect to omit the hyperlink I included with it?
  2. When you read post 5, did you click on the hyperlink that is part of it? Had you done, you'd know exactly from where comes the "tan" bit as well as the content found in the two sub-bullets that follows it.

I don't take the time to fret over small and irrelevant things like whether Roosevelt said "day" or "date," that was your worry. I just pointed out that your own quote also used the word "day."

Not that it matters.
 
I don't take the time to fret over small and irrelevant things like whether Roosevelt said "day" or "date," that was your worry. I just pointed out that your own quote also used the word "day."

Not that it matters.
Blue:
  1. Apprehension and application of the English language's denotational/connotational and grammatical qualities aren't, by folks who've mastered English, fretted. Apt diction is nearly as autonomic to them as are their hearts' beating.
    • That said, the "day/date" matter about which you keep trying to defend yourself is a matter of your slovenliness, that of failing to accurately quote another. I won't say what it takes to accurately quote someone, but whatever it takes, in quoting FDR, you didn't exhibit it.
  2. My, as you put it, "worry" was not over your use of "day" vs. "date," and I've twice before written so. This post is the third time.

    What I objected to is your misquoting FDR, not that you used "day" instead of "date." I told you as much from the start and I reiterated as much the first time you attempted to assert that my concern was your grammar:
    Let's get one thing right:
    If you're going to quote what may be FDR's most famous remark, at least quote him accurately. FDR said "December 7th, 1941 a date which will live in infamy," not "a day...that..." I presume he didn't say "day" because, as a Groton grad, he was well aware of the difference between "day" and "date" -- a difference that, frankly, fifth graders should comprehend and apply -- and because he found it important to speak with precision and use words that correctly and accurate depict the thoughts he cared to express.​
    1. My comment had nothing to do with your grammar. It had only to do with your misquoting FDR and the implications of the nature of the misquote itself. Your grammar doesn't factor into your quotations of other people's statements.


I don't take the time to fret over small and irrelevant things like whether Roosevelt said "day" or "date," that was your worry. I just pointed out that your own quote also used the word "day."

Not that it matters.
Red:
Had you clicked on the hyperlink provided in the passage about which you asked, you'd have found that "day" in that instance is part of a proper noun, namely (no pun) "National Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day." You asked did I write "day" in the passage you cited.
...where did you get your own quote:
Given that Congress established December 7th as National Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day and that legislation requests that the POTUS...
Did you write that one yourself?
Obviously, I did use the word "day;" however, if you'd clicked on the hyperlink I included, you'd have seen that I had no choice but to write "day" because that is the word that appears in the name the US Congress gave to December 7th.

Below in "tan" is the passage, complete with the hyperlink you disincluded when you cited it.
  • Who, in your mind, is "we?"
  • Given that Congress established December 7th as National Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day and that legislation requests that the POTUS...
    • "...issue each year a proclamation calling on-
      the people of the United States to observe National Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day with appropriate ceremonies and activities; and
    • all departments, agencies, and instrumentalities of the United States Government, and interested organizations, groups, and individuals, to fly the flag of the United States at halfstaff each December 7 in honor of the individuals who died as a result of their service at Pearl Harbor.
How do you reckon that the "'date that will live in infamy' has largely been forgotten?"​

July 4, 1776 is the date the Founders declared independence from England. Whatever day fall July 4th -- Monday, Tuesday, etc. -- is called Independence Day.
 
Blue:
  1. Apprehension and application of the English language's denotational/connotational and grammatical qualities aren't, by folks who've mastered English, fretted. Apt diction is nearly as autonomic to them as are their hearts' beating.
    • That said, the "day/date" matter about which you keep trying to defend yourself is a matter of your slovenliness, that of failing to accurately quote another. I won't say what it takes to accurately quote someone, but whatever it takes, in quoting FDR, you didn't exhibit it.
  2. My, as you put it, "worry" was not over your use of "day" vs. "date," and I've twice before written so. This post is the third time.

    What I objected to is your misquoting FDR, not that you used "day" instead of "date." I told you as much from the start and I reiterated as much the first time you attempted to assert that my concern was your grammar:




Red:
Had you clicked on the hyperlink provided in the passage about which you asked, you'd have found that "day" in that instance is part of a proper noun, namely (no pun) "National Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day." You asked did I write "day" in the passage you cited.
Obviously, I did use the word "day;" however, if you'd clicked on the hyperlink I included, you'd have seen that I had no choice but to write "day" because that is the word that appears in the name the US Congress gave to December 7th.

Below in "tan" is the passage, complete with the hyperlink you disincluded when you cited it.
July 4, 1776 is the date the Founders declared independence from England. Whatever day fall July 4th -- Monday, Tuesday, etc. -- is called Independence Day.

After all of that pseudo erudite explanation, perhaps it should be called Independence Date. Maybe you could start a movement.

or, just continue doing what you're doing. Maybe you can one day say:

miscellaneous-mountain_out_of_a_molehill-gurus-mountain-mountaintop-enlightenment-rman4481_low.jpg
 
Let's get one thing right:
If you're going to quote what may be FDR's most famous remark, at least quote him accurately. FDR said "December 7th, 1941 a date which will live in infamy," not "a day...that..." I presume he didn't say "day" because, as a Groton grad, he was well aware of the difference between "day" and "date" -- a difference that, frankly, fifth graders should comprehend and apply -- and because he found it important to speak with precision and use words that correctly and accurate depict the thoughts he cared to express.

The fact of Pearl having been bombed on a given date is why National Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day is always on a given date, December 7th, and not a given day (Mon, Tues, Wed, etc.).

You're misstating FDR's remarks does not preclude my knowing what you've got in mind. I'm merely saying that if you're going to quote someone, exhibit the rigor, the intellectual and pragmatic integrity of bothering to accurately do so. The misquote you've penned, if one takes it as representationally/existentially faithful, implies that FDR was either ignorant of the difference between "day" and "date" or too indolent to dictionally apply the difference. FDR was neither for he did indeed "know words," "have the best words" and aptly and ably use them.​

So... you're saying that the attack on Pearl Harbour did not occur on a day? What was it... still night-time at 7:48am?

I'm sure everyone is terribly impressed that you knew the precise quote, but you probably should have stopped there. Beyond that, you're seemingly parading your own pompous ignorance in failing to realise that it would be just as correct (and indeed, arguably more evocative) to talk about the infamy of that day and its events as to talk about the infamy of the date, December 7th. The attempt to invent new grammar rules constraining FDR's speech looks a little bit silly ;)
 
After all of that pseudo erudite explanation, perhaps it should be called Independence Date. Maybe you could start a movement.

or, just continue doing what you're doing. Maybe you can one day say:

miscellaneous-mountain_out_of_a_molehill-gurus-mountain-mountaintop-enlightenment-rman4481_low.jpg

You are the one who made the mountain of the matter by repeatedly offering one or another stripe of direct and indirect exculpatory remark when "yep, my bad" and in turn leave it at that, was, frankly, all you should have and needed to have done upon being informed that you'd misquoted FDR.

I earlier noted the same thing I did just above, and, in response, you acknowledged that you erred; however, after you did so, you then tried to revile me for having informed you of your mistake.

I don't know why you keep attempting to, by assailing me, discount or otherwise obtain for yourself some sort of vindication for your having misquoted FDR's most famous remark. I know only that you have done so.
 
So... you're saying that the attack on Pearl Harbour did not occur on a day? What was it... still night-time at 7:48am?

I'm sure everyone is terribly impressed that you knew the precise quote, but you probably should have stopped there. Beyond that, you're seemingly parading your own pompous ignorance in failing to realise that it would be just as correct (and indeed, arguably more evocative) to talk about the infamy of that day and its events as to talk about the infamy of the date, December 7th. The attempt to invent new grammar rules constraining FDR's speech looks a little bit silly ;)

Red:
No. Why would I? The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on a Sunday. The date of the Sunday on which the attack occurred is December 7, 1941, and that is the date that even now remains infamous. Sunday is not, at least not as a result of the attack on "Pearl," an infamous day.


Blue:
Maybe they are or maybe they're not. Folks' thoughts in that regard aren't by me sought, but if they so think, fine. TY.

I wouldn't have had a damn thing to say had the other member not quoted that very famous passage, but he did. The OP-er could have paraphrased FDR -- in which case no quotation marks would have been necessary, and presumably the OP-er wouldn't have used them were he knowingly paraphrasing FDR -- and I'd have said nothing about it for his correct or incorrect use of "day"/"date" would have no impact on my comprehension/recognition of the reference.


Pink:
The matter to which I called attention isn't a grammar rule, unless one thinks it a matter of grammar to accurately quote another and not "put into another's mouth" words s/he didn't utter. The fact is that neither I, you, the OP-er or anyone else gets to, when quoting folks, re-word their utterances, and it takes scant little effort or integrity to ensure one accurately quotes another.
  • Original quote: "...-- a date which will live in infamy --..."
  • Edited quote: "...-- a date which [lived] in infamy --..."
    • One can, align a quoted passage fit the grammatical structure of one's sentence. In doing so, one must indicate to readers that one has altered the original wording. For example:
      • Despite Congress having, in the wake of the enduring outrage over the Japanese having bombed Pearl Harbor, declared December 7th National Pearl Harbor Remembrance Day, I submit that in but another 50 years it be "a date which [lived] in infamy."
      • "... -- a [day] which will live in infamy --..."
  • Paraphrasing: This approach doesn't at all quote the original speaker. Seeing something akin to any of the approaches below, I'd have had nothing to say about whether they accurately reflect FDR's remarks for from any of them I'd have known to what the writer referred.
    • FDR called this date one that will live in infamy.
    • FDR called this day one which will live in infamy.
    • Though FDR said this is a day that lives in infamy, it seems the nation's outrage over the attack on Pearl Harbor has abated.
Say what you want, but it's clear the OP-er knew his intent was to quote FDR, for doing so is presumably why he used quotation marks when he wrote, "day that will live in infamy."

I don't care whether he quoted or didn't opt to quote FDR. I care only that he quote FDR, or anyone else, accurately. To indicate that one is quoting another and not indeed do so accurately, or not indicate that one has edited the other person's remarks, is to misquote that person, to put words in the person's mouth and lead readers to infer things (however great or small) about the original writer/speaker of the misquoted passage. Regardless of how major or minor be the impact of misquoting another, it's just wrong...

If one mistakenly misquotes another, okay, just "own" having done so and move on.
After such an acknowledgement of one's mistake, nobody's going to give one grief. On the other hand, try defending an indefensible error such as misquoting another and one'll catch hell for it unless and until one does simply "own" the nature and extent of one's mistake. (Misquotations of others aren't, of course, the only genre of indefensible errors.)

Is the nature of the error the OP-er made minor? Yes, which confound my comprehension of why, upon the mistake's being noted, he did anything other than proffer a simple statement similar to the one I above offered. I have noticed that on DP, unlike in my "real world," people take exception to owning their simple mistakes. I don't know why.
 
LOL. You guys are arguing over semantics when we should be celebrating the fact we don’t have to learn Japanese in schools.

Anyone a fan of “The Man in the High Tower”?
 
Mithrae said:
So... you're saying that the attack on Pearl Harbour did not occur on a day? What was it... still night-time at 7:48am?

No. Why would I? The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor on a Sunday. The date of the Sunday on which the attack occurred is December 7, 1941, and that is the date that even now remains infamous. Sunday is not, at least not as a result of the attack on "Pearl," an infamous day.

You insisted at length and with a great deal of scorn that it would have been incorrect for FDR to say that the day of the attack was a day that will live in infamy: According to you "a difference that, frankly, fifth graders should comprehend and apply" and one which would imply being "either ignorant of the difference between "day" and "date" or too indolent to dictionally apply the difference."

Clearly, you were wildly incorrect in those claims. It would be perfectly valid (and arguably even more evocative) to say that it "will be a day long rememb that will live in infamy" - emphasizing the particular day on which the attack occurred, rather than merely the date.

So one can't help but wonder why you don't simply say "Yeah, okay, I thought I was being smart and got a bit too pompous and carried away on that."
 
You insisted at length and with a great deal of scorn that it would have been incorrect for FDR to say that the day of the attack was a day that will live in infamy: According to you "a difference that, frankly, fifth graders should comprehend and apply" and one which would imply being "either ignorant of the difference between "day" and "date" or too indolent to dictionally apply the difference."

Clearly, you were wildly incorrect in those claims. It would be perfectly valid (and arguably even more evocative) to say that it "will be a day long rememb that will live in infamy" - emphasizing the particular day on which the attack occurred, rather than merely the date.

So one can't help but wonder why you don't simply say "Yeah, okay, I thought I was being smart and got a bit too pompous and carried away on that."
Blue:
The phrasing "a day which will live in infamy" would have been an incorrect application of the word "day," unless FDR meant Sunday, the day on which the attack occurred. I don't know what you think, but for me and the rest of the world, Sunday does not now, nor did it on or before the occasion of FDR's address to Congress, which is when he uttered his famous phrase, live in infamy.

Moreover, if one listens to FDR's address, one'll note that the phrase "a date which will live in infamy" is an appositive phrase describing "December 7, 1941." As an appositive phrase, it'd be incorrect to say "day" because December 7, 1941 is a date, not a day. (It'd have been fine for FDR to phrase his appositive as "...a Sunday which will...")


Red:
By what reckoning do you think I am incorrect in asserting that the distinction is one fifth graders understand and apply.
FWIW, I wouldn't expect a fifth grader to recognize an appositive phrase, which is a far more advanced aspect of English than is merely knowing and apply the meaning of the words "day" and "date." The OP-er and you, for that matter, probably aren't fifth graders, but I suspect too that you've both passed the eighth grade; thus I expect you both recognize appositives when you encounter them and have mastered the subtleties of their construction and use. You each can dash my expectation, but I won't prior to your doing so presume you don't recognize an appositive phrase and the need for forming syntactical coherence between their content and the noun(s) they modify.


Pink:
I won't say such because there's no cause for my doing so:
  • As I indicated from literally the very start, the exception I took is with the misquoting of FDR. The first words I wrote in post 5 are:
    "If you're going to quote what may be FDR's most famous remark, at least quote him accurately. FDR said "December 7th, 1941 a date which will live in infamy," not "a day...that...""
  • As is clear from the video I included in post 5 and what the OP-er wrote in post 1, the OP-er did misquote FDR.
  • There's nothing pompous or pedantic about noting that "so and so" misquoted XYZ-person when the fact is that "so and so" did misquote XYZ-person.


Tan:
  • One can use "day" in the sentence you've suggested, and "everyone" would almost certainly know what one means, but so using day would nonetheless be denotationally/grammatically incorrect.
 
We kind of did repeat it. Both Pearl Harbor and 9/11 were planned attacks where the government had advanced knowledge.

Evidence that the government knew of the 9/11 attack?
 
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