Are you a Slave?

This, at first glance will seem to be about slavery but it's really not. What this thread is really about is if you're the kind of person who sees the world in terms of freedom versus slavery, or even if you are not, well, please read on...

Do you hate paying taxes and wish taxes did not exist?

Do you believe paying taxes is equivalent to being a Slave?

Do you see your relationship with authority, either your employer or the state, requiring you to follow certain rules as equal to being a Slave? Are there any degrees here, or, is it like, you are a total slave?

Do you see laws which society requires you follow as a challenge and/or to your freedom?

Do you view getting a marriage license as an imposition on your freedom?

Do you believe in money or currency, and if you do, how does a society without governance or rules which allows this total and complete Freedom that you seek provide it?

And what happens to the common resources, who controls them-'the airwaves, the water supply, the money supply the banking system Etc Etc?

If Society wants to change how does a society without governance which has only inhabitants who volunteer to do things, achieve it?

If none of the other countries have governance either and one of them decides to poison the waters how are they dealt with?

If the society which has no governance is now our society and another country invades our new society that has no governance how is that Invasion dealt with?

If your home was burglarized and your cameras reveal who the culprits are how does this Society without governance deal with it?


If you're not the kind of person who believes all these things, which is to say I totally ungoverned Society where all of us volunteer to achieve society's needs , then imagine you are and answer the questions anyway (please)

And in light of all the above please answer the following question:

Who are you?

And that is the real point of this thread. Who are you, or who would you imagine this person to be if it's not you?

Then, after answering that question just one more question and I will be done, thank you

Does such society as you envision exist anywhere in the world, if so please indicate it.

And those who don't wish to answer these questions that's fine say whatever you want I'm curious as to all responses.

To the title question, my answer is "no."

• Do you hate paying taxes and wish taxes did not exist?
  • Red: Hate, no, but I absolutely undertake tax minimization measures.
  • Blue: No, for were such a wish to come to fruition, we'd be in a state of anarchy or we'd be a corporation, not a nation.
• Do you believe paying taxes is equivalent to being a Slave?
  • No.
• Do you see your relationship with authority, either your employer or the state, requiring you to follow certain rules as equal to being a Slave? Are there any degrees here, or, is it like, you are a total slave?
  • Q1: No. The only thing to which I'm a slave are my own goals and ambitions.
  • Q2: Yes. I am more committed to achieving certain goals/ambitions than am I committed to doing so re: others.
• Do you see laws which society requires you follow as a challenge and/or to your freedom?
  • No. I see laws as statements that inform me of the consequences I may face should I opt to behave in ways that violate the law. Having that information, it's my decision whether to violate one or more laws and face the consequences or not violate them.
• Do you view getting a marriage license as an imposition on your freedom?
  • No. I view it as a waste of time, money and effort, but getting one doesn't stop me from doing anything.
• Do you believe in money or currency, and if you do, how does a society without governance or rules which allows this total and complete Freedom that you seek provide it?
  • Bold: What?
• And what happens to the common resources, who controls them-'the airwaves, the water supply, the money supply the banking system Etc Etc?
  • Let me be clear. I don't want anyone controlling common resources; I want capable experts managing and maintaining them. There is a certain measure of control concomitant with management/maintenance; however, control isn't the primary point of managing/maintaining resources.
    • Who may manage/maintain common resources? Subject matter experts who are willing to and who have the training and experience to do so aptly.
• If Society wants to change how does a society without governance which has only inhabitants who volunteer to do things, achieve it?
  • Through a variety of processes, all of which are, overall and at various points, vigilantist, incoherent, capricious and inefficient.
• If none of the other countries have governance either and one of them decides to poison the waters how are they dealt with?
  • By various incoherent, capricious and/or inefficient means, if at all.
• If the society which has no governance is now our society and another country invades our new society that has no governance how is that Invasion dealt with?
  • By various individuals working in "silos" to repel the invaders. That is precisely what happened to Native American tribes in the 15th to 19th centuries in the Americas. The various Native nations were, in aggregate, disorganized and unwilling/unable to unify to repel the existential threat they all faced; thus divided they fell. The human condition is the same as it was the 15th century; thus there's no reason to think any other disparately extant "society" would do or fare any differently. To wit, even being the most powerful nation on the planet, the US, were it faced with the remaining "top 10" nations as its opponents, would lose just as surely as did Native American societies.
• If your home was burglarized and your cameras reveal who the culprits are how does this Society without governance deal with it?
  • Such a society doesn't deal with that happenstance. I must deal with it, either individually or by amassing a posse whom I pay or to which I make myself subsequently beholden.

An anarchist is what is described. It always sounds good, but still winds up being controlled by brute power. Some form of governance is required and a benevolent dictatorship has been cited as the best of all possibilities. Much like Qaddaffi in Libya (God rest his soul). Such things are not compatible with imperialism and unilateralism and that is the current USA NeoCon PNAC world domination through economic and military reality. It's just nice if your babies are healthy and happy, even immigrants.
/

OscarLevant said:

This, at first glance will seem to be about slavery but it's really not. What this thread is really about is if you're the kind of person who sees the world in terms of freedom versus slavery, or even if you are not, well, please read on...

Do you hate paying taxes and wish taxes did not exist?

Do you believe paying taxes is equivalent to being a Slave?

Do you see your relationship with authority, either your employer or the state, requiring you to follow certain rules as equal to being a Slave? Are there any degrees here, or, is it like, you are a total slave?

Do you see laws which society requires you follow as a challenge and/or to your freedom?

Do you view getting a marriage license as an imposition on your freedom?

Do you believe in money or currency, and if you do, how does a society without governance or rules which allows this total and complete Freedom that you seek provide it?

And what happens to the common resources, who controls them-'the airwaves, the water supply, the money supply the banking system Etc Etc?

If Society wants to change how does a society without governance which has only inhabitants who volunteer to do things, achieve it?

If none of the other countries have governance either and one of them decides to poison the waters how are they dealt with?

If the society which has no governance is now our society and another country invades our new society that has no governance how is that Invasion dealt with?

If your home was burglarized and your cameras reveal who the culprits are how does this Society without governance deal with it?


If you're not the kind of person who believes all these things, which is to say I totally ungoverned Society where all of us volunteer to achieve society's needs , then imagine you are and answer the questions anyway (please)

And in light of all the above please answer the following question:

Who are you?

And that is the real point of this thread. Who are you, or who would you imagine this person to be if it's not you?

Then, after answering that question just one more question and I will be done, thank you

Does such society as you envision exist anywhere in the world, if so please indicate it.

And those who don't wish to answer these questions that's fine say whatever you want I'm curious as to all responses.

Click to expand...

I was at one time in my life. Getting into my truck after stumbling out of the pool hall, turning over the engine of the truck, then just 5 short seconds later and 15 miles away turning the key to off. Two tall boys is the most I ever had after that horrifying night. And it’s been at least three years since I’ve had any at all.

OscarLevant said:

This, at first glance will seem to be about slavery but it's really not. What this thread is really about is if you're the kind of person who sees the world in terms of freedom versus slavery, or even if you are not, well, please read on...

Do you hate paying taxes and wish taxes did not exist?

Do you believe paying taxes is equivalent to being a Slave?

Do you see your relationship with authority, either your employer or the state, requiring you to follow certain rules as equal to being a Slave? Are there any degrees here, or, is it like, you are a total slave?

Do you see laws which society requires you follow as a challenge and/or to your freedom?

Do you view getting a marriage license as an imposition on your freedom?

Do you believe in money or currency, and if you do, how does a society without governance or rules which allows this total and complete Freedom that you seek provide it?

And what happens to the common resources, who controls them-'the airwaves, the water supply, the money supply the banking system Etc Etc?

If Society wants to change how does a society without governance which has only inhabitants who volunteer to do things, achieve it?

If none of the other countries have governance either and one of them decides to poison the waters how are they dealt with?

If the society which has no governance is now our society and another country invades our new society that has no governance how is that Invasion dealt with?

If your home was burglarized and your cameras reveal who the culprits are how does this Society without governance deal with it?


If you're not the kind of person who believes all these things, which is to say I totally ungoverned Society where all of us volunteer to achieve society's needs , then imagine you are and answer the questions anyway (please)

And in light of all the above please answer the following question:

Who are you?

And that is the real point of this thread. Who are you, or who would you imagine this person to be if it's not you?

Then, after answering that question just one more question and I will be done, thank you

Does such society as you envision exist anywhere in the world, if so please indicate it.

And those who don't wish to answer these questions that's fine say whatever you want I'm curious as to all responses.

Click to expand...

far to deep for me

Tom Horn said:

I was at one time in my life. Getting into my truck after stumbling out of the pool hall, turning over the engine of the truck, then just 5 short seconds later and 15 miles away turning the key to off. Two tall boys is the most I ever had after that horrifying night. And it’s been at least three years since I’ve had any at all.

Click to expand...

What was that in answer to ?

OscarLevant said:

This, at first glance will seem to be about slavery but it's really not. What this thread is really about is if you're the kind of person who sees the world in terms of freedom versus slavery, or even if you are not, well, please read on...

Do you hate paying taxes and wish taxes did not exist?

Do you believe paying taxes is equivalent to being a Slave?

Do you see your relationship with authority, either your employer or the state, requiring you to follow certain rules as equal to being a Slave? Are there any degrees here, or, is it like, you are a total slave?

Do you see laws which society requires you follow as a challenge and/or to your freedom?

Do you view getting a marriage license as an imposition on your freedom?

Do you believe in money or currency, and if you do, how does a society without governance or rules which allows this total and complete Freedom that you seek provide it?

And what happens to the common resources, who controls them-'the airwaves, the water supply, the money supply the banking system Etc Etc?

If Society wants to change how does a society without governance which has only inhabitants who volunteer to do things, achieve it?

If none of the other countries have governance either and one of them decides to poison the waters how are they dealt with?

If the society which has no governance is now our society and another country invades our new society that has no governance how is that Invasion dealt with?

If your home was burglarized and your cameras reveal who the culprits are how does this Society without governance deal with it?


If you're not the kind of person who believes all these things, which is to say I totally ungoverned Society where all of us volunteer to achieve society's needs , then imagine you are and answer the questions anyway (please)

And in light of all the above please answer the following question:

Who are you?

And that is the real point of this thread. Who are you, or who would you imagine this person to be if it's not you?

Then, after answering that question just one more question and I will be done, thank you

Does such society as you envision exist anywhere in the world, if so please indicate it.

And those who don't wish to answer these questions that's fine say whatever you want I'm curious as to all responses.

Click to expand...

You seem to think "society" is controlling things and if it doesn't, the alternative is no government. I disagree. Government...ie, the Constitution...is above society. Society operates within the bounds of the Constitution.

Now...it is entirely reasonable for individuals to desire more or less government control over society. I happen to desire less control. But my willingness to have a government over my society in no way means I am a slave to either.

Mary Dunsmore said:

What was that in answer to ?

Click to expand...

Am I a slave? No. I used to be. But not anymore. I have a free mind, that goes with my free will.

Only people who rely on the gubermint to save them or provide for them are slaves. Collect enough taxes to build my roads, police my town, and protect my nation (military). The rest of the spending is wasteful and unnessecary.

Mycroft said:

You seem to think "society" is controlling things and if it doesn't, the alternative is no government. I disagree. Government...ie, the Constitution...is above society. Society operates within the bounds of the Constitution.

Now...it is entirely reasonable for individuals to desire more or less government control over society. I happen to desire less control. But my willingness to have a government over my society in no way means I am a slave to either.

Click to expand...

My concern is not whether government is needed (or desired, which it is) but how much government helps to 'manage' things and at the level city, county, state and/or federal which things are 'managed' by government. The higher the level of government involved then the lower each person's (voter's?) ability to control that government power becomes.

If your government representative 'serves' 600K to 1M folks then that is a far different situation than if they 'served' 2K to 4K folks. If 'our' government is basically inaccessible or unresponsive then it is not much of a stretch to have a feeling of being its slave rather than its master.

Tom Horn said:

Am I a slave? No. I used to be. But not anymore. I have a free mind, that goes with my free will.

Click to expand...

I still think you have been smoking something elicit. Unlike most people, I believe in slavery. There are people living in Africa who have to walk miles to the nearest water hole, they live in mud huts, are forced to eat wildebeest poo because there isn't anything else, and generally live to about 35 years old. Offer these savages a room in your house, feed them, cloth them, and generally care for them, and they will happily work 7 days a week for you cooking and cleaning etc. Of course, if they don't like it they should be able to return to their own country, and if you don't like them, you could either sell them on or deport them. I genuinely don't see the problem with good old fashioned slavery, and believe it's only political correctness that stops it happening.

DaveFagan said:

An anarchist is what is described. It always sounds good, but still winds up being controlled by brute power. Some form of governance is required and a benevolent dictatorship has been cited as the best of all possibilities. Much like Qaddaffi in Libya (God rest his soul). Such things are not compatible with imperialism and unilateralism and that is the current USA NeoCon PNAC world domination through economic and military reality. It's just nice if your babies are healthy and happy, even immigrants.
/

Click to expand...

There is definitely an argument to be made that the average Libyan was better off under Qaddafi than they are now but things are pretty damn bad for them right now. Qaddafi was definitely not a “benevolent” dictator. I was living in Libya during his final year of power. Benevolence is not the word to use to describe his rule. He did do a pretty damn good job at keeping most of his brutality out of the western media, I’ll give him that.

OscarLevant said:

Do you see your relationship with authority, either your employer or the state, requiring you to follow certain rules as equal to being a Slave? Are there any degrees here, or, is it like, you are a total slave?

Click to expand...

That question has been asked for thousands of years. Cicero wrote of the relationship between employee and employer, “...the very wage they receive is a pledge of their slavery.” This is a poignant observation even in modern times - in a world where the actions and speech of employees is regulated even “off the clock” as a condition of employment. Workers are not “total” slaves as technically they can walk away from these relationships at will, but the consequences of doing that make slavery effectively so.

Using the word slave could cause micro aggressions. Instead, say prisoners with jobs.

OscarLevant said:

And those who don't wish to answer these questions that's fine say whatever you want I'm curious as to all responses.

Click to expand...

You are asking a ton of questions that basically boils down to how people perceive taxation and licensure in relation to the ability or freedom to do something, then where we should fall on a governance scale within the line between anarchy and totalitarianism.

These questions end up loaded, as rarely is anyone arguing for absolutes.

When it comes to governance we ultimately decide on how far we go down the road of authoritarianism from government and/or religious ideology. That said not liking where we happen to fall on the scale does not mean shifting to absolute lack of government or complete totalitarianism. All we end up talking about is where we go on the scale, sliding up and down towards one direction or the other as a means of momentum to some ideal somewhere else on that line (whatever that may be.) Libertarians are no more asking for anarchy than today's liberals are asking for totalitarianism, they just happen to be asking for being somewhere else on the line.

Economics is the same way and the core reason why most of the developed world ends up somewhere in a mixed model, being neither strict market economics or strict planned economics as to avoid the pitfalls of either one.

Taxation ends up in that conversation, too little or too much taxation can end up with some degree of slavery.

What it comes down to is what you define as slavery. If you define slavery as ownership of a person then the debate is over, modern western governmental ideologies do not own us nor do they claim to own their citizens. But, if you define slavery as a government claiming the benefits of the labor of another person to the point of income quintile controls then you might be entering the range of slavery.

Not because of ownership by a government, but because of taxation taking more than one might take home as a result of their labor.

There is another matter though and it comes from sociology, the idea of slavery to an ideology. Taxation is not the only way to overtake the will of a populace, the threat of force from any ideology via strict governance and/or strict religious ideology can enslave a populace to a government. Usually measured by the fear of loss of life and/or property (wealth) by a governance basing claim on their authority.

Ungoverned society is subject to the same methods of enslaving a populace, in absence of a government model strength of an ideology and/or a central person can be enough to claim ownership of the results of someone else labor without claiming ownership of that person. Threats, intimidation, ability to take by force... those are not exclusive to a government.

OscarLevant said:

This, at first glance will seem to be about slavery but it's really not. What this thread is really about is if you're the kind of person who sees the world in terms of freedom versus slavery, or even if you are not, well, please read on...

Do you hate paying taxes and wish taxes did not exist?

Do you believe paying taxes is equivalent to being a Slave?

Do you see your relationship with authority, either your employer or the state, requiring you to follow certain rules as equal to being a Slave? Are there any degrees here, or, is it like, you are a total slave?

Do you see laws which society requires you follow as a challenge and/or to your freedom?

Do you view getting a marriage license as an imposition on your freedom?

Do you believe in money or currency, and if you do, how does a society without governance or rules which allows this total and complete Freedom that you seek provide it?

And what happens to the common resources, who controls them-'the airwaves, the water supply, the money supply the banking system Etc Etc?

If Society wants to change how does a society without governance which has only inhabitants who volunteer to do things, achieve it?

If none of the other countries have governance either and one of them decides to poison the waters how are they dealt with?

If the society which has no governance is now our society and another country invades our new society that has no governance how is that Invasion dealt with?

If your home was burglarized and your cameras reveal who the culprits are how does this Society without governance deal with it?


If you're not the kind of person who believes all these things, which is to say I totally ungoverned Society where all of us volunteer to achieve society's needs , then imagine you are and answer the questions anyway (please)

And in light of all the above please answer the following question:

Who are you?

And that is the real point of this thread. Who are you, or who would you imagine this person to be if it's not you?

Then, after answering that question just one more question and I will be done, thank you

Does such society as you envision exist anywhere in the world, if so please indicate it.

And those who don't wish to answer these questions that's fine say whatever you want I'm curious as to all responses.

Click to expand...

Most people are not smart enough to understand that government is what holds civilization together. So, we have libertarians who call the fire department when there is a fire but insist that they do not need big "gubberment." We have anarchists who use the internet and drive on state highways who insist that government needs to be toppled. We have conservatives who fly planes from state to state to do business but insist that government making use of the commerce clause is a liberal overreach.

Like I said, most people are not very smart.

Anyway, I do not feel like a slave. Far from it.

KevinKohler said:

Using the word slave could cause micro aggressions. Instead, say prisoners with jobs.

Click to expand...

The goal in life should be to have a career not a job. If more people learned that at an early enough age to do something about it, the world would be full of happy people.

RileyCoyote said:

Only people who rely on the gubermint to save them or provide for them are slaves. Collect enough taxes to build my roads, police my town, and protect my nation (military). The rest of the spending is wasteful and unnessecary.

Click to expand...

Actually most of the town can be self policed if everyone is required to go about their daily lives armed.

Tom Horn said:

Actually most of the town can be self policed if everyone is required to go about their daily lives armed.

Click to expand...

Oh, that will be sure to end well for unpopular minorities.

calamity said:

Oh, that will be sure to end well for unpopular minorities.

Click to expand...

Why? Do you hate minorities? Which ones are unpopular for you?

For 18y/o+ f/100=m/89.7 ratio. Only 58.9%WHT. Pop went from 6,000 ind. in 1980 to 7375 families by 2010. Right smack dab in the center of Atlanta in Cobb County.