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U.K.'s Healthcare Horror Stories Ought To Curb Dems' Enthusiasm for Single-Payer

Grokmaster said:
Lessons the left seems to NEVER LEARN = Big Government is NOT EFFICIENT...even catastrophic.


But at least YOUR DEATH won't cost you any out-of-pocket expenses!!


Viable free market solutions are the obvious answer, within certain reasonable parameters.





U.K.'s Healthcare Horror Stories Ought To Curb Dems' Enthusiasm for Single-Payer


The United Kingdom’s National Health Service, which celebrated its 70th anniversary on July 5, is imploding.

Vacancies for doctor and nurse positions have reached all-time highs. Patients are facing interminable waits for care as a result. This August, a record number of Britons languished more than 12 hours in emergency rooms. In July, the share of cancer patients who waited more than two months to receive treatment soared

Yet enthusiasm for government-run, single-payer health care continues to build in the United States. The latest Reuters/Ipsos poll shows that 70 percent of Americans now support Medicare for All. Virtually all the major candidates for the Democratic nomination for president in 2020 have come out in favor of banning private insurance coverage and implementing a single-payer system instead.

One look across the Atlantic, to the disaster unfolding in the United Kingdom’s government-run healthcare system, ought to curb that enthusiasm.


The shortage of providers has resulted in longer wait times for patients. In May, 4.3 million people in the United Kingdom were on waiting lists for surgery, a 10-year high. Adjusting for population, that would be like having everyone in the state of Florida on waiting lists. Roughly 3,500 British patients have been on hospital waiting lists for more than a year.

More than one in five British cancer patients waits longer than two months to begin treatment after receiving a referral from a general practitioner. In Scotland, fewer than 80 percent of patients receive needed diagnostic tests — endoscopies, MRIs, CT, scans and the like — within three months.

These delays are deadly. An analysis that covered just half of England’s hospitals found that almost 30,000 patients died in the past year while waiting for treatment — an increase of 57 percent compared to 2013.



https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallyp...rD8Wp0rPcG55qe2HQ64gLVWPSEfMfDNMAnUD90UvBumEA

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When you consider that we have 5x the population of the UK, that 30k would turn into 150k deaths a year here if we went to a universal system. I'm wondering if that 30k was the estimated total for the country or just the half of hospitals they reviewed. If the latter, then you can essentially double it to 300k a year of people dying waiting on health care.

3,500 patients waiting over a year for service, 3 months for an MRI or CAT scan? Those wait times are absolutely ridiculous.
 
Grokmaster said:
Lessons the left seems to NEVER LEARN = Big Government is NOT EFFICIENT...even catastrophic.


But at least YOUR DEATH won't cost you any out-of-pocket expenses!!


Viable free market solutions are the obvious answer, within certain reasonable parameters.
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:lol: "Free markets! But not really free!"

Single-payer is infinitely preferable to "free market". And I don't believe anyone's saying to copy the UK wholesale.
 
spud_meister said:
[emoji38] "Free markets! But not really free!"

Single-payer is infinitely preferable to "free market". And I don't believe anyone's saying to copy the UK wholesale.
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The UK NHS is not one to copy and that is why the OP uses it.

The NHS is one of the worst UHC systems in the western world due the conservatives since Maggie Thatcher trying to make it more American. And yet it is still a head of the American system.

No, if one has to copy anything then it is the French, German or Spanish systems... highly effective and relatively cheap. A mix of public and private, but coverage for all.

But of course the OP and other conservatives only focus on the British and Canadian systems to misinform about.

Sendt fra min SM-N9005 med Tapatalk
 
The gubermint has no business being in charge of our healthcare. Look how ****ty they run things into the ground and waste tax payer dollars. Anyone wanting socialized medicine has the brain of a monkey.
 
Grokmaster said:
Says who?
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Says the far-left Marxist British Labour Party. Well they would, wouldn't they?

The Swedish health care system is to a surprisingly large extent operated by private companies on contract. This is not even politically controversial - there are certainly no votes in speaking out against it.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Where does it say in the capitalist manifesto, all must be appreciated for profits? Without a healthy America, capitalism is doomed, and so are all profits. Will you cut off your nose to spite your face?
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If you're a Conservative, the answer must be yes.
 
Zalatix said:
If you're a Conservative, the answer must be yes.
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Horse Manure.

I reject all petty political labels. Regardless, there are no absolutes for any political choices, no absolutism, and political rigidity indicates failure.

Capitalism is an economic system, nothing more. Those from both sides of the American major political aisle can be and are capitalists.
 
Praxas said:
No a source of what you’re talking about.
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NO. You want to know the cure for cancer? Cough up some money. I only give free rides to buddies.
 
I am 61 years old, born and bread in the UK, so feel I can tell everyone about the NHS. Thirty years ago if there was something wrong with me I would ring the doctors surgery in the morning and be given an appointment the same day. If I needed to see a specialist I would be given an appointment within a few weeks. If I needed an operation, well that would follow a few weeks later. If I had an accident the ambulance would arrive within minutes. If I attended accident and emergency at the local hospital I would be attended to within the hour. As a child and teenager dental care was also included.

2018. If I want to see a doctor the same day in my area it means I have to queue at 7.30am in the hope I get seen before lunch. To be fair, if I go on line dead on 8am I can get an appointment a few days later. If I need to be referred to a specialist, this takes about three months. If I need an operation, this can take between 3 months and a year. If you have stopped breathing an ambulance will arrive within the hour, otherwise it can take up to six hours (yes honestly, six hours). Dental care costs are reduced under the NHS, but that's only if you can find an NHS dentist.

OK, so why has it all gone tits upwards. Some people will say that the NHS is under funded, but I wonder if those people are really prepared to pay the additional taxes required to get the NHS running as it once was. We have two major problems, (1) our population is getting very old, (2) through mass immigration our population is to big. The USA has been built on immigration, but let me warn you, if you want to continue down this line, forget having your version of the NHS, because the additional taxes from such immigration will never pay for such a system. All this put to one side, I wouldn't swap what you have for what we have. I quite like the idea of a very basic system for those who can't afford anything better, and something better for those who can. The problem being is that your basic system is too basic, and your healthcare insurance is far to high. So what is the answer? I can't honestly give you the answer, because their are so many factors involved. There are countries in Europe who have great healthcare systems, but they tend to be countries with high taxation, with people who are prepared to have lower disposable incomes.

It's my belief that in the UK we should very carefully control immigration, and only offer it free of charge after a five year period of stay. I would also only offer palliative and pain killing care to those over seventy years old, unless privately funded. Many UK citizens would find this unpalatable, but they tend to be the same people who believe the government have a bottomless pit of money. At the end of the day it's up to you to vote for the party who offers what you want. Your last president attempted to change things, but found few answers. If you genuinely want a healthcare system in the US, you find that your entire mindset has to change. Good Luck !!
 
Tom Horn said:
NO. You want to know the cure for cancer? Cough up some money. I only give free rides to buddies.
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So then your claim is BS, got it.
 
RileyCoyote said:
The gubermint has no business being in charge of our healthcare. Look how ****ty they run things into the ground and waste tax payer dollars. Anyone wanting socialized medicine has the brain of a monkey.
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Were you one of those t-party protesters holding a sign reading "KEEP THE GOVERNMENTS HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE"???
 
Greenbeard said:
Who is suggesting we adopt the U.K.'s system?
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In the "political forum" space the suggestion/urging is quite common.

Medicare for ALL!!! It's only 3% overhead!!!


Sounds like such a simple solution. But alas....reality tends to be more complex.
 
Mary Dunsmore said:
I am 61 years old, born and bread in the UK, so feel I can tell everyone about the NHS. Thirty years ago if there was something wrong with me I would ring the doctors surgery in the morning and be given an appointment the same day. If I needed to see a specialist I would be given an appointment within a few weeks. If I needed an operation, well that would follow a few weeks later. If I had an accident the ambulance would arrive within minutes. If I attended accident and emergency at the local hospital I would be attended to within the hour. As a child and teenager dental care was also included.

2018. If I want to see a doctor the same day in my area it means I have to queue at 7.30am in the hope I get seen before lunch. To be fair, if I go on line dead on 8am I can get an appointment a few days later. If I need to be referred to a specialist, this takes about three months. If I need an operation, this can take between 3 months and a year. If you have stopped breathing an ambulance will arrive within the hour, otherwise it can take up to six hours (yes honestly, six hours). Dental care costs are reduced under the NHS, but that's only if you can find an NHS dentist.

OK, so why has it all gone tits upwards. Some people will say that the NHS is under funded, but I wonder if those people are really prepared to pay the additional taxes required to get the NHS running as it once was. We have two major problems, (1) our population is getting very old, (2) through mass immigration our population is to big. The USA has been built on immigration, but let me warn you, if you want to continue down this line, forget having your version of the NHS, because the additional taxes from such immigration will never pay for such a system. All this put to one side, I wouldn't swap what you have for what we have. I quite like the idea of a very basic system for those who can't afford anything better, and something better for those who can. The problem being is that your basic system is too basic, and your healthcare insurance is far to high. So what is the answer? I can't honestly give you the answer, because their are so many factors involved. There are countries in Europe who have great healthcare systems, but they tend to be countries with high taxation, with people who are prepared to have lower disposable incomes.

It's my belief that in the UK we should very carefully control immigration, and only offer it free of charge after a five year period of stay. I would also only offer palliative and pain killing care to those over seventy years old, unless privately funded. Many UK citizens would find this unpalatable, but they tend to be the same people who believe the government have a bottomless pit of money. At the end of the day it's up to you to vote for the party who offers what you want. Your last president attempted to change things, but found few answers. If you genuinely want a healthcare system in the US, you find that your entire mindset has to change. Good Luck !!
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Wonderful post!!

So in summary, there are no painless/simple solutions to "the problem". Healthcare at a societal level is enormously complex. And nothing is gonna make everybody happy.
 
Regardless of overarching issues like an aging population, something we suffer from here in the US as well, there is a basic flaw in the US system that unless addressed will continue to see the US fall in the relative quality of care while still being the most expensive place on the planet to receive care.

Private Insurance vehicles of merit are about Liability, not protection. Look at all forms of Private Insurance from Life through Property to Auto that make any sense at all and they are all about Liability, not protection. Private Healthcare Insurance companies create cost and then charge premiums based on the higher cost of healthcare maintenance that they themselves feed through a multitude of vehicles not the least of which is that your doctor chooses the treatment plan that is covered. The Healthcare Insurance companies love added healthcare cost and gleefully support added cost because it simply feeds their business model. Gee how have we missed that one all these years?

If this were the Mafia doing this we would call it a Protection Racket. Its not more complicated than that. Get Private Healthcare carriers out of the Healthcare Insurance business as much as possible in as many steps as it takes and in as much time as it takes. If not, this never gets any better here.

Least we forget, this was a badly badly broken system before ACA. if that were not the case, nobody would have staked their political futures on the ACA which was never described as more than a first step away from the lunatic US Healthcare Delivery System. A first step that has lain fallow since its inception in spite of the fact, repeat FACT that more Americans want the ACA's first step to be built upon than those that want to kill it. Thanks again GOP.
 
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Grokmaster said:
If you can only buy vegetables at ONE VENDOR under PENALTY OF LAW, you are going to start seeing some SHABBY-ASSED VEGETABLES, as there is no reason for the vendor to keep a good product, and/or keep improving it.
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Democrats offer what we call the public option note the operative word option

Democrats are not recommending a government-run hospital nor are they recommending only one option. We have public schools but no one is stopping you from sending your kid to a private school capiche?

Quit lying and offering straw man arguments. They're just as many horror stories and Healthcare in this country as there are anywhere else

I put the question to a number of Brits and Canadians if they would trade their Healthcare System for that America's and so far it's been a unanimous NO!

And not a simple no but HELL NO!

We have only one fire department is your fire department shabby assed? we have only one military is your military shabby assed?
 
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OscarLevant said:
Democrats offer what we call the public option note the operative word option

Democrats are not recommending a government-run hospital nor are they recommending only one option. We have public schools but no one is stopping you from sending your kid to a private school capiche?

Quit lying and offering straw man arguments. They're just as many horror stories and Healthcare in this country as there are anywhere else

I put the question to a number of Brits and Canadians if they would trade their Healthcare System for that America's and so far it's been a unanimous NO!

And not a simple no but HELL NO!

We have only one fire department is your fire department shabby assed? we have only one military is your military shabby assed?
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No, they FORCED a MANDATE, operative word "MANDATE".


The GOP is who allows CHOICE.
 
You think USA does not heave horror stories? :lamo
 
Slavister said:
You think USA does not heave horror stories? :lamo
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Not like that....massive, potentially DEADLY wait times for potentially fatal illnesses are not "the NORM" here, as they are under government healthcare in Britain.
 
Grokmaster said:
No, they FORCED a MANDATE, operative word "MANDATE"
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As a means to break the cycle of stupid that represents the entire US Healthcare Delivery System.

The ACA was never intended as a completed work but a work in process to fix what was and still is a horribly broken US Healthcare Delivery System. So stated ad nauseam by its proponents at the time. Unfortunately, the GOP has stalled that process regardless of the fact that most Americans now appreciate the ACA for what it is and wants its government to get about the business of moving forward using the platform of the ACA as a springboard.
 
jnug said:
As a means to break the cycle of stupid that represents the entire US Healthcare Delivery System.

The ACA was never intended as a completed work but a work in process to fix what was and still is a horribly broken US Healthcare Delivery System. So stated ad nauseam by its proponents at the time. Unfortunately, the GOP has stalled that process regardless of the fact that most Americans now appreciate the ACA for what it is and wants its government to get about the business of moving forward using the platform of the ACA as a springboard.
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Which drove up COSTS and PREMIUMS, while threatening those who did not want to "play", such as healthy younger people.


Limiting malpractice awards , moving to make the rest of the world pay its fair share of pharma and treatment R&D (as the POTUS is already doing) are great steps in reducing costs.
 
Grokmaster said:
Which drove up COSTS and PREMIUMS, while threatening those who did not want to "play", such as healthy younger people.


Limiting malpractice awards , moving to make the rest of the world pay its fair share of pharma and treatment R&D (as the POTUS is already doing) are great steps in reducing costs.
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Sorry...nothing but nothing is as fraught with stupid, unnecessary and skyrocketing cost and inefficiency as the US Healthcare Delivery System as constructed before ACA and since because ACA has lain fallow thanks to GOP.

We used to have the #1 rated Healthcare Delivery System in the world and we paid for it. Now we are wallowing down there rated below 30th in the world for quality of service and still tumbling while still paying the highest rates in the world for it. We are still #1 in cost.

Any functioning corporation, lets say an auto manufacturer producing the 30th rated auto's in the world while charging the most for them would be dead and buried long ago. So stop with the ills of a system, ACA, that was always claimed by its biggest proponents as a first step of the dark ages of the US Healthcare Delivery System.

Our Healthcare Delivery System is and was horribly broken which is what prompted that first step into sanity with the initial ACA offering in the first place. You would be amazed what you can learn if you climb out of our partisan silo every once and awhile.
 
jnug said:
Sorry...nothing but nothing is as fraught with stupid, unnecessary and skyrocketing cost and inefficiency as the US Healthcare Delivery System as constructed before ACA and since because ACA has lain fallow thanks to GOP.

We used to have the #1 rated Healthcare Delivery System in the world and we paid for it. Now we are wallowing down there rated below 30th in the world for quality of service and still tumbling while still paying the highest rates in the world for it. We are still #1 in cost.

Any functioning corporation, lets say an auto manufacturer producing the 30th rated auto's in the world while charging the most for them would be dead and buried long ago. So stop with the ills of a system, ACA, that was always claimed by its biggest proponents as a first step of the dark ages of the US Healthcare Delivery System.

Our Healthcare Delivery System is and was horribly broken which is what prompted that first step into sanity with the initial ACA offering in the first place. You would be amazed what you can learn if you climb out of our partisan silo every once and awhile.
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The ACA failed miserably.

Costs to consumers SKYROCKETED...the people it REALLY HELPED were the INSURANCE COMPANIES...
 
Grokmaster said:
The ACA failed miserably.

Costs to consumers SKYROCKETED...the people it REALLY HELPED were the INSURANCE COMPANIES...
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Wrong...it is a very popular program that has been wounded by the GOP's efforts to kill it. Nice try.

If you don't think Healthcare Delivery costs were not SKYEROCKETING before the ACA, you are living a fantasy.
 
Grokmaster said:
No, they FORCED a MANDATE, operative word "MANDATE".


The GOP is who allows CHOICE.
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That's interesting it was conservative think tank, specifically the Heritage Foundation, that dreamed up the idea.
Anyway,
So you decide to, now that Joe Blow who's dying the street is going to bleed to death so you decide that because you're a cheapskate when it comes to Health Care you let him die because he cant afford is own insurance.

Right? Got it

If you're okay with that then what you're suggesting is a society I would prefer not to live in , as do not the majority of Americans. So if the issue really is where are your tax dollars going note that no tax policy will please everyone .there is no such animal. So what is real for you is also real for everyone else. It's up to voters, that's where this issue will ultimately be decided
 
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