Achieving Balance in the Me Too Movement

jamesrodom · Oct 22, 2018

"I am a woman. I'm also the mother of a son. Is there a middle path in the Me, Too movement?"

This essay is well-written, thoughtful, and worth the time it takes to read. While fully acknowledging the necessity of the movement, the author also is critical of the tendency to assume all woman are telling the truth and all men so accused are guilty. From the article:

Like most women, I view Me Too as a huge, overdue win for equality. The right to pursue a career without gender discrimination, the right to receive equal pay for equal work, the right to call out unwelcome and inappropriate sexual overtures, the fact that women feel able to openly talk about these issues without fear of retaliation — all this is groundbreaking and important, a gift to the next generation, both our daughters and our sons.

But over the past year, amid all the justifiable anger and solidarity, I find myself unsettled by the undercurrent of intolerance and resistance to anything that doesn’t neatly fit narratives of men exploiting their privilege and power. That women are always victims and men always oppressors. That women are universally to be believed and men are inherently untrustworthy. That feelings are more important than facts.

Thoughts? Reactions?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...daputLC91L3lXXTmIkB5qs&utm_term=.ba828c6b942f

ecofarm · Oct 22, 2018

Crybaby fake victim strawman:

That women are always victims and men always oppressors. That women are universally to be believed and men are inherently untrustworthy. That feelings are more important than facts.

The article is written by a disgusting liar and someone I would not allow around women or children.

Would anyone trust someone who's "accusations of pedo are BS and I don't listen to them" around children? I'm not trusting that same guy, in regard to women, around women.

As far as I'm concerned, the author is admitting to being a sexual offender. The strawman victim routine says that.

Crovax · Oct 22, 2018

ecofarm said:
Crybaby fake victim strawman:

The article is written by a disgusting liar and someone I would not allow around women or children.

Hard to tell if this post is sarcasm or not

ecofarm · Oct 22, 2018

Crovax said:
Hard to tell if this post is sarcasm or not

If someone came up to you: "metoo is BS, everyone believes women and no one believes men. Men are victims. We can't even defend ourselves. Society is cheating to make me look bad. Women are causing all the problems, and I pay the price."

And then asks, "so, mind if I take your wife shopping?"

What happens? For me, he's not getting anywhere near anyone I care about. He's all but declared himself a molester in my book.

Strawmanning sex crimes is not acceptable to me.

Crovax · Oct 22, 2018

ecofarm said:
If someone came up to you: "metoo is BS, everyone believes women and no one believes men. Men are victims. We can't even defend ourselves. Society is cheating to make me look bad. Women are causing all the problems, and I pay the price."

And then asks, "so, mind if I take your wife shopping?"

What happens? For me, he's not getting anywhere near anyone I care about. He's all but declared himself a molester in my book.

It’s not a he, it’s a woman who is a mother

ecofarm · Oct 22, 2018

Crovax said:
It’s not a he, it’s a woman who is a mother

Whatever.

Strawmanning sex crimes = sex offender. I'm not interested in covers.

TheGoverness · Oct 22, 2018

jamesrodom said:
"I am a woman. I'm also the mother of a son. Is there a middle path in the Me, Too movement?"

This essay is well-written, thoughtful, and worth the time it takes to read. While fully acknowledging the necessity of the movement, the author also is critical of the tendency to assume all woman are telling the truth and all men so accused are guilty. From the article:

Like most women, I view Me Too as a huge, overdue win for equality. The right to pursue a career without gender discrimination, the right to receive equal pay for equal work, the right to call out unwelcome and inappropriate sexual overtures, the fact that women feel able to openly talk about these issues without fear of retaliation — all this is groundbreaking and important, a gift to the next generation, both our daughters and our sons.

But over the past year, amid all the justifiable anger and solidarity, I find myself unsettled by the undercurrent of intolerance and resistance to anything that doesn’t neatly fit narratives of men exploiting their privilege and power. That women are always victims and men always oppressors. That women are universally to be believed and men are inherently untrustworthy. That feelings are more important than facts.

Thoughts? Reactions?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...daputLC91L3lXXTmIkB5qs&utm_term=.ba828c6b942f

Can't say I disagree with that. I do think that skepticism should be involved in this discussion. Some people tend to flat-out believe the accuser in question without any evidence. Which can in turn lead to incidents like the Duke Lacrosse case, or the Rolling Stone incident. Both of which had serious negative repercussions on the innocent parties involved (the accused). And moreover, those that make false accusations harm those who have been sexually assaulted, and make it more difficult for them to come out with their stories. That is why I think that these types of cases should most certainly be taken into serious consideration, and not be swept under the rug. But I think everyone should also take a healthy degree of skepticism with these cases.

Crovax · Oct 22, 2018

ecofarm said:
Whatever.

Strawmanning sex crimes = sex offender. I'm not interested in covers.

You certainly seemed interested in calling a woman a male child molester because you didn’t agree with her opinion

ecofarm · Oct 22, 2018

Crovax said:
You certainly seemed interested in calling a woman a male child molester because you didn’t agree with her opinion

Molestation refers to any such act, not merely against children.

There's not much difference between someone that strawmans pedo and someone that strawmans rape. Sex offender either way.

Crovax · Oct 22, 2018

ecofarm said:
Molestation refers to any such act, not merely against children.

There's not much difference between someone that strawmans pedo and someone strawmans rape. Sex offender either way.

Nothing about child rape was in the OP, you brought it into the thread.

Freudian slip? Is there something you need to tell us?

ecofarm · Oct 22, 2018

Crovax said:
Nothing about child rape was in the OP, you brought it into the thread.

She's strawmanning rape just like people strawman pedo or strawman racism. One can be sure the person strawmanning has a reason.

Freudian slip? Is there something you need to tell us?

Really? You're accusing me of being a child molester? Because I reject a rape strawman.

You like rape strawmen so much that you lash out against anyone who rejects them? Wow. You have the self awareness of a rape apologist like the OP article author.

ps. Freud was completely discredited years ago. It's imbecilic to cite him. Of course, only someone so ignorant could be so disgusting as to accuse members of child molestation. What a display. You should be ashamed.

MrWonka · Oct 22, 2018

jamesrodom said:
the author also is critical of the tendency to assume all woman are telling the truth and all men so accused are guilty.

What tendency is she referring to exactly? In virtually every single case of a woman accusing a man of sexual assault, the default tendency has been to not believe the woman until at least 5 other women come forward and say the exact same thing. That is the problem, each woman who is assaulted has no faith that anyone is actually going to believe her unless the same ****head did the same thing to other women who are also then willing to come forward following her example.

We just watched a lying piece of **** drunkard get confirmed to the Supreme Court despite the existence of a woman who passed a Lie detector test coming forward and saying she was assaulted. So where exactly is this woman getting the idea stuck in her head that people have a tendency to believe women?

Crovax · Oct 22, 2018

ecofarm said:
She's strawmanning rape just like people strawman pedo or strawman racism. One can be sure the person strawmanning has a reason.

Really? You're accusing me of being a child molester? Because I reject a rape strawman.

You like rape strawmen so much that you lash out against anyone who rejects them? Wow. You have the self awareness of a rape apologist like the OP article author.

ps. Freud was completely discredited years ago. It's imbecilic to cite him.

Nothing in the OP or any of the posts are is “strawmanning rape”

And it’s funny that someone who doesn’t know the difference between a man and a woman would have the gall to call anything imbecilic

ecofarm · Oct 22, 2018

I'm not interacting with someone who accuses members of child molestation. That's bottom of the barrel scum behavior.

OlNate · Oct 22, 2018

Crovax said:
Nothing about child rape was in the OP, you brought it into the thread.

Freudian slip? Is there something you need to tell us?

Boooo

Crovax · Oct 22, 2018

ecofarm said:
I'm not interacting with someone who accuses members of child molestation. That's bottom of the barrel scum behavior.

That was you bud

jamesrodom · Oct 31, 2018

MrWonka said:
What tendency is she referring to exactly? In virtually every single case of a woman accusing a man of sexual assault, the default tendency has been to not believe the woman until at least 5 other women come forward and say the exact same thing. That is the problem, each woman who is assaulted has no faith that anyone is actually going to believe her unless the same ****head did the same thing to other women who are also then willing to come forward following her example.

We just watched a lying piece of **** drunkard get confirmed to the Supreme Court despite the existence of a woman who passed a Lie detector test coming forward and saying she was assaulted. So where exactly is this woman getting the idea stuck in her head that people have a tendency to believe women?

The "tendency" to which she is referring is the RECENT tendency in the last couple of years, particularly the trend that has taken hold since the beginning of the Me-Too movement.

Obviously you're correct in that the 'default' tendency prior to that time, and going back many, many years, has been NOT to believe the woman. But the crux of her point is that both of these positions represent extremes. Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Is there really no MIDDLE ground?

In other words: two wrongs don't make a right.

jamesrodom · Oct 31, 2018

ecofarm said:
She's strawmanning rape just like people strawman pedo or strawman racism. One can be sure the person strawmanning has a reason.

Really? You're accusing me of being a child molester? Because I reject a rape strawman.

You like rape strawmen so much that you lash out against anyone who rejects them? Wow. You have the self awareness of a rape apologist like the OP article author.

ps. Freud was completely discredited years ago. It's imbecilic to cite him. Of course, only someone so ignorant could be so disgusting as to accuse members of child molestation. What a display. You should be ashamed.

You are wrong. Freud has never been 'completely' discredited. He was, however, a figure of his time, and a lot of what he said and wrote has to be understood in that context. But what he said about the effect of the unconscious mind was groundbreaking, and has never been refuted.

MrWonka · Oct 31, 2018

jamesrodom said:
The "tendency" to which she is referring is the RECENT tendency in the last couple of years, particularly the trend that has taken hold since the beginning of the Me-Too movement.

Umm...it took close to 20 women to bring down Bill Cosby. It took more than 5 to bring down Harvey Weinstein. At least 3-4 to bring down Louis C.K. 3 to bring down Bill O'Reilly. 4 to bring down Roger Ailes. 4 women to take down Al Franken.

Trump has been accused of sexual assault by over 20 women. He's still President. Kavanaugh was accused by three different women including one that passed a lie detector test. Still on the Supreme Court. Keith Elison was only accused by one woman and with a significant lack of substantiation that still wasn't enough for Democrats to throw him under the bus.

Can you even name one man whose career was destroyed by the accusation of 1 and only 1 woman? Nope. Didn't think so.

ecofarm · Oct 31, 2018

jamesrodom said:
You are wrong. Freud has never been 'completely' discredited. He was, however, a figure of his time, and a lot of what he said and wrote has to be understood in that context. But what he said about the effect of the unconscious mind was groundbreaking, and has never been refuted.

That's moron garbage. Read some criticism so people needn't read such ignorant crap from you.

It takes some backwoods neckbilly uncle Joe education to spew such laughably ignorant crap. And you try to use the old Confederate excuse, "historical context", illustrating that you have no education on the subject whatsoever.

What a joke. Try 7th grade 'intro to psych'.

Ya know what? I'm not done. Freud tortured his victims to giving him the answers he wanted. He was a disgusting and horrible person, and a complete fraud.

It's scumbag behavior to promote known torturous fraud. You might as well be promoting Hitler. Disgusting ignorance. You should be ashamed. What kind of a person promotes a "doctor" that tortured his patients and never got a single thing right?

I swear the ignorance in this world is reaching critical proportions. You're not helping. Spewing idiotic crap as if you're educated is pathetic and part of the problem.

Read a ****ing book.

jamesrodom · Nov 1, 2018

MrWonka said:
Umm...it took close to 20 women to bring down Bill Cosby. It took more than 5 to bring down Harvey Weinstein. At least 3-4 to bring down Louis C.K. 3 to bring down Bill O'Reilly. 4 to bring down Roger Ailes. 4 women to take down Al Franken.

Trump has been accused of sexual assault by over 20 women. He's still President. Kavanaugh was accused by three different women including one that passed a lie detector test. Still on the Supreme Court. Keith Elison was only accused by one woman and with a significant lack of substantiation that still wasn't enough for Democrats to throw him under the bus.

Can you even name one man whose career was destroyed by the accusation of 1 and only 1 woman? Nope. Didn't think so.

How does any of this negate what I've said?

Manc Skipper · Nov 1, 2018

jamesrodom said:
How does any of this negate what I've said?

What have you said?

jamesrodom · Nov 1, 2018

<<Ya know what? I'm not done.>>

That's okay: I am.

It's a sure sign in these debate and discussion forums that anytime anyone resorts to histrionic tirades/demagogic language/"ad hominem" attacks or personal insults, it's because they've completely run out of anything substantive to say (assuming they had any in the first place)

jamesrodom · Nov 1, 2018

Manc Skipper said:
What have you said?

This quote: The "tendency" to which she is referring is the RECENT tendency in the last couple of years, particularly the trend that has taken hold since the beginning of the Me-Too movement.

Obviously you're correct in that the 'default' tendency prior to that time, and going back many, many years, has been NOT to believe the woman. But the crux of her point is that both of these positions represent extremes. Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Is there really no MIDDLE ground?

What objections do you have to this? Be specific.

MrWonka · Nov 1, 2018

jamesrodom said:
How does any of this negate what I've said?

It proves that there is no tendency to trust women over men. Not today, not ever. It still takes multiple women all saying the same things about the same guy before anybody takes it seriously.

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