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Why tax returns should not be made public

Lutherf

Lutherf

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There's an article out today explaining that Jared Kushner's "tax avoidance" was perfectly legal. - https://www.businessinsider.com/jared-kushner-income-tax-dodging-legal-nyt-report-says-2018-10

Please note the phrase "tax dodging" in the headline. If you read the article you'll find that Kushner wasn't scheming at all. The article actually says -
Times reporters reviewed more than 40 pages of documents that detailed Kushner's family real estate empire's business earnings, expenses, and losses over seven years and found the New York-based real estate firm used a common deduction allowance.
Click to expand...

Please note the word "common". That's right, Kushner wasn't "dodging" anything. He took a depreciation deduction. That isn't a "tax scheme". That isn't "dodging". It isn't a "loophole". It's a REQUIREMENT!

The other thing that stuck out in the article is that Kushner managed to convince banks to give him a loan for the purpose of purchasing property. Imagine that! Some rich guy goes to the banks and says "I want money so that I can buy property" and, because he's rich, they loan him the money!!! Who does that?!

Oh yeah, EVERYBODY does that. It's called a "mortgage".

Stupid crap like this is why no politician should release their personal or business tax returns. Most of the general public has no idea what they're looking at and media will find a way to take advantage of that lack of knowledge to spin completely normal stuff into a conspiracy theory.
 
Lutherf said:
There's an article out today explaining that Jared Kushner's "tax avoidance" was perfectly legal. - https://www.businessinsider.com/jared-kushner-income-tax-dodging-legal-nyt-report-says-2018-10

Please note the phrase "tax dodging" in the headline. If you read the article you'll find that Kushner wasn't scheming at all. The article actually says -


Please note the word "common". That's right, Kushner wasn't "dodging" anything. He took a depreciation deduction. That isn't a "tax scheme". That isn't "dodging". It isn't a "loophole". It's a REQUIREMENT!

The other thing that stuck out in the article is that Kushner managed to convince banks to give him a loan for the purpose of purchasing property. Imagine that! Some rich guy goes to the banks and says "I want money so that I can buy property" and, because he's rich, they loan him the money!!! Who does that?!

Oh yeah, EVERYBODY does that. It's called a "mortgage".

Stupid crap like this is why no politician should release their personal or business tax returns. Most of the general public has no idea what they're looking at and media will find a way to take advantage of that lack of knowledge to spin completely normal stuff into a conspiracy theory.
Click to expand...
This isn't an argument for keeping tax returns private, it's an argument for better reporting and/or journalism standards.

And possibly for removing those loopholes or whatever you want to call them that allowed or required him to do this.
 
Lutherf said:
There's an article out today explaining that Jared Kushner's "tax avoidance" was perfectly legal. - https://www.businessinsider.com/jared-kushner-income-tax-dodging-legal-nyt-report-says-2018-10

Please note the phrase "tax dodging" in the headline. If you read the article you'll find that Kushner wasn't scheming at all. The article actually says -


Please note the word "common". That's right, Kushner wasn't "dodging" anything. He took a depreciation deduction. That isn't a "tax scheme". That isn't "dodging". It isn't a "loophole". It's a REQUIREMENT!

The other thing that stuck out in the article is that Kushner managed to convince banks to give him a loan for the purpose of purchasing property. Imagine that! Some rich guy goes to the banks and says "I want money so that I can buy property" and, because he's rich, they loan him the money!!! Who does that?!

Oh yeah, EVERYBODY does that. It's called a "mortgage".

Stupid crap like this is why no politician should release their personal or business tax returns. Most of the general public has no idea what they're looking at and media will find a way to take advantage of that lack of knowledge to spin completely normal stuff into a conspiracy theory.
Click to expand...
*cough* Whitewater *clears throat*

It's just common sense to have transparency, otherwise crooks will be attracted to public service as means to enrich themselves.

Like the ones we have right now.
 
I can see making an argument for not releasing tax information because there are so many blathering idiots out there who will misinterpret or not read beyond the headlines. This NYT story is yet another example of the MSM misleading people.
 
Lutherf said:
There's an article out today explaining that Jared Kushner's "tax avoidance" was perfectly legal. - https://www.businessinsider.com/jared-kushner-income-tax-dodging-legal-nyt-report-says-2018-10

Please note the phrase "tax dodging" in the headline. If you read the article you'll find that Kushner wasn't scheming at all. The article actually says -


Please note the word "common". That's right, Kushner wasn't "dodging" anything. He took a depreciation deduction. That isn't a "tax scheme". That isn't "dodging". It isn't a "loophole". It's a REQUIREMENT!

The other thing that stuck out in the article is that Kushner managed to convince banks to give him a loan for the purpose of purchasing property. Imagine that! Some rich guy goes to the banks and says "I want money so that I can buy property" and, because he's rich, they loan him the money!!! Who does that?!

Oh yeah, EVERYBODY does that. It's called a "mortgage".

Stupid crap like this is why no politician should release their personal or business tax returns. Most of the general public has no idea what they're looking at and media will find a way to take advantage of that lack of knowledge to spin completely normal stuff into a conspiracy theory.
Click to expand...

LOL So it is not bad enough that our tax laws are designed so the wealthy pay a lower % of their income in taxes than the middle class. Now we need to keep that fact a secret so they won't be embarrassed when it is revealed? What's next free blow jobs?
 
The Mark said:
This isn't an argument for keeping tax returns private, it's an argument for better reporting and/or journalism standards.

And possibly for removing those loopholes or whatever you want to call them that allowed or required him to do this.
Click to expand...

You want to get rid of depreciation? OK. I'm all for that as long as you allow the asset to simply be taken as a direct expense. Does that sound like a good idea to you? Do you think it will solve any perceived problem? What do you think should happen to the huge NOLs such a method would result in? Do you suggest that we simply disallow all business losses?
 
Lutherf said:
Stupid crap like this is why no politician should release their personal or business tax returns. Most of the general public has no idea what they're looking at and media will find a way to take advantage of that lack of knowledge to spin completely normal stuff into a conspiracy theory.
Click to expand...

While I agree that there will be "spin", the spin can be easily refuted as you have done with your post.
I disagree that pols who don't release their returns are worried about "spin".
I think the non-releasers are most probably worried about some embarrassing investment and/or business connections which may not be as easy to refute.
 
I do not agree with them being made public anyway, too much of a mess in the making.
 
MovingPictures said:
*cough* Whitewater *clears throat*

It's just common sense to have transparency, otherwise crooks will be attracted to public service as means to enrich themselves.

Like the ones we have right now.
Click to expand...

I tell you what, if it's so important that all politicians should have their tax returns made public then ALL tax returns should be public. You never can tell if someone planning to run for public office will amend tax returns they've already filed so we may as well just put all of them out there on display for everyone to inspect. How about that? Does that sound like a good idea?
 
radioman said:
While I agree that there will be "spin", the spin can be easily refuted as you have done with your post.
I disagree that pols who don't release their returns are worried about "spin".
I think the non-releasers are most probably worried about some embarrassing investment and/or business connections which may not be as easy to refute.
Click to expand...

Of course. The liberals all figure that anyone who isn't them is up to no good and therefore must be "transparent". The problem is that most people have no freaking idea what they're looking at and, like you just did, will ascribe some level of malice to anything they see.
 
Lutherf said:
Of course. The liberals all figure that anyone who isn't them is up to no good and therefore must be "transparent". The problem is that most people have no freaking idea what they're looking at and, like you just did, will ascribe some level of malice to anything they see.
Click to expand...

Then the solution is to release your returns early, let both sides do their respective "spins" and move on.
Trump---as an example---said he would release his returns.
He didn't.
That makes me suspect he's hiding something.
Trump could clear this up by releasing his returns.....y'know like Obama released his birth certificate.
 
iguanaman said:
LOL So it is not bad enough that our tax laws are designed so the wealthy pay a lower % of their income in taxes than the middle class. Now we need to keep that fact a secret so they won't be embarrassed when it is revealed? What's next free blow jobs?
Click to expand...

It does not require that a named individual be used as an example to point out the moronic things in the federal (or state) income tax code. Congress critters are well paid to salt those 'special' exemptions, credits, exclusions, deferments and clever accounting methods into the massive (80K page?) mess which serves as the federal income tax (FIT) code. Besides that, the FIT code's complexity guarantees the employment of many, many accountants, tax preparation experts and lawyers in addition to lobbyists wielding loads of campaign cash to help 'special interests' get ever better 'deals' than the common folks get.
 
Lutherf said:
I tell you what, if it's so important that all politicians should have their tax returns made public then ALL tax returns should be public. You never can tell if someone planning to run for public office will amend tax returns they've already filed so we may as well just put all of them out there on display for everyone to inspect. How about that? Does that sound like a good idea?
Click to expand...
:lol:

Someone REALLY doesn't want to know what's in Trump's tax returns, and that's because deep down, under all of the talk, you know he's a world class crook.

With public service comes the requirement of transparency.
 
MovingPictures said:
:lol:

Someone REALLY doesn't want to know what's in Trump's tax returns, and that's because deep down, under all of the talk, you know he's a world class crook.

With public service comes the requirement of transparency.
Click to expand...

I know this may be hard for some to believe but the main reason I don't want to see Trump's tax returns is because it's none of my damned business what's on them!

Aside from that, I have a good idea of what Trump's tax return would look like and I simply don't have a spare year to devote to going through it all.
 
Lutherf said:
You want to get rid of depreciation? OK. I'm all for that as long as you allow the asset to simply be taken as a direct expense. Does that sound like a good idea to you? Do you think it will solve any perceived problem? What do you think should happen to the huge NOLs such a method would result in? Do you suggest that we simply disallow all business losses?
Click to expand...
I'm not at all sure what you're talking about, which is why I included the word "possibly".


I have no idea how business taxes work.

It sounds like you can deduct losses so you don't pay more taxes than you made in profit, or something.

Edit:
Decided to read the article in OP for the first time.

I would argue that the tax rules that allow this need to be reconsidered.

Basically, it sounds like these laws and rules allow companies/people to manipulate money in a way that allows them to make money and not pay taxes on it.

Legally.

I would argue that those rules need to be revisited and re-examined, but I don't expect they will be, since politicians are controlled by the very people whose income and wealth would be impacted by changing them in the way I envision.
 
Last edited:
MovingPictures said:
:lol:

Someone REALLY doesn't want to know what's in Trump's tax returns, and that's because deep down, under all of the talk, you know he's a world class crook.

With public service comes the requirement of transparency.
Click to expand...

The “requirement of transparency” ends up being applied when politically advantageous, that is damn near bipartisan, and do not pretend it is otherwise.

As for the tax returns themselves, unless there is some crime then the only reason to demand them is to satisfy what you already admit... finding anything to call him a “crook.”

Appreciate this coming from someone who has no care to support or defend Trump, but even I can see the persistent request to see his tax return has nothing to do with some interest in clearing him of an accusation. It is just fuel for the fire, and we all know it.
 
OrphanSlug said:
The “requirement of transparency” ends up being applied when politically advantageous, that is damn near bipartisan, and do not pretend it is otherwise.

As for the tax returns themselves, unless there is some crime then the only reason to demand them is to satisfy what you already admit... finding anything to call him a “crook.”

Appreciate this coming from someone who has no care to support or defend Trump, but even I can see the persistent request to see his tax return has nothing to do with some interest in clearing him of an accusation. It is just fuel for the fire, and we all know it.
Click to expand...
Here's a news flash, if Trump was some awesome businessman that does everything the way he's supposed to, he wouldn't be so nutty about preventing these documents from becoming public.

The Democrats wouldn't have so much interest in seeing them if he wasn't always threatening to fire investigators that might request them, and is constantly talking about how it's a redline.

Tip: When you tell investigators and political opponents "DON'T LOOK OVER THERE!" you just make them want to look there more.
 
MovingPictures said:
:lol:

Someone REALLY doesn't want to know what's in Trump's tax returns, and that's because deep down, under all of the talk, you know he's a world class crook.

With public service comes the requirement of transparency.
Click to expand...

Why do you think the IRS is incompetent ?? What illegal tid bit do you think would be revealed that the IRS missed ??

Transparency is not a requirement.
 
hanger4 said:
Why do you think the IRS is incompetent ?? What illegal tid bit do you think would be revealed that the IRS missed ??

Transparency is not a requirement.
Click to expand...

Maybe if the irs was actually given proper resources instead of being starved of it by ideologically driven congress, it would be more effective.
 
MovingPictures said:
Here's a news flash, if Trump was some awesome businessman that does everything the way he's supposed to, he wouldn't be so nutty about preventing these documents from becoming public.

The Democrats wouldn't have so much interest in seeing them if he wasn't always threatening to fire investigators that might request them, and is constantly talking about how it's a redline.

Tip: When you tell investigators and political opponents "DON'T LOOK OVER THERE!" you just make them want to look there more.
Click to expand...

News flash... I did not say he was an awesome businessman.

What I said was there is no interest in seeing the returns in order to validate anything favorable towards Trump, it is a hunt for yet something else to take to an agreeing base of voters that already does not like Trump and probably is already calling him a “crook” anyway.

All you are doing is proving my point for me, the only interest is in making something of the returns.

Since it is unlikely there is a criminal charge buried in there somewhere then all we are talking about is perception from what is in those returns. Perception of wealth, perception of what someone *should* pay in taxes regardless of all the legal means to reduce one’s tax liability, perception of his business dealings, etc.

Not a bit of this is otherwise.

Again, and read it this time, I am not a Trump supporter but even I can tell what his opposition is really up to with this.
 
OrphanSlug said:
News flash... I did not say he was an awesome businessman.

What I said was there is no interest in seeing the returns in order to validate anything favorable towards Trump, it is a hunt for yet something else to take to an agreeing base of voters that already does not like Trump and probably is already calling him a “crook” anyway.

All you are doing is proving my point for me, the only interest is in making something of the returns.

Since it is unlikely there is a criminal charge buried in there somewhere then all we are talking about is perception from what is in those returns. Perception of wealth, perception of what someone *should* pay in taxes regardless of all the legal means to reduce one’s tax liability, perception of his business dealings, etc.

Not a bit of this is otherwise.

Again, and read it this time, I am not a Trump supporter but even I can tell what his opposition is really up to with this.
Click to expand...
I guess I'll repeat myself, too.

Are the Democrats playing politics? You damn well bet they are. They're taking a page from the Republican playbook, working to do exactly what they would do with the same situation, and looking to see if there's any dirt on Trump that could damage him and the GOP.

The GOP has done this exact sort of thing to their political opponents for years, and their precedents just might come back to bite them.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Maybe if the irs was actually given proper resources instead of being starved of it by ideologically driven congress, it would be more effective.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about ??
 
The Mark said:
This isn't an argument for keeping tax returns private, it's an argument for better reporting and/or journalism standards.

And possibly for removing those loopholes or whatever you want to call them that allowed or required him to do this.
Click to expand...

Remove those loopholes affecting the 91% that pay half the taxes right after removing the loopholes that allow the 50% that pay nothing to pay nothing,
 
Lutherf said:
There's an article out today explaining that Jared Kushner's "tax avoidance" was perfectly legal. - https://www.businessinsider.com/jared-kushner-income-tax-dodging-legal-nyt-report-says-2018-10

Please note the phrase "tax dodging" in the headline. If you read the article you'll find that Kushner wasn't scheming at all. The article actually says -


Please note the word "common". That's right, Kushner wasn't "dodging" anything. He took a depreciation deduction. That isn't a "tax scheme". That isn't "dodging". It isn't a "loophole". It's a REQUIREMENT!

The other thing that stuck out in the article is that Kushner managed to convince banks to give him a loan for the purpose of purchasing property. Imagine that! Some rich guy goes to the banks and says "I want money so that I can buy property" and, because he's rich, they loan him the money!!! Who does that?!

Oh yeah, EVERYBODY does that. It's called a "mortgage".

Stupid crap like this is why no politician should release their personal or business tax returns. Most of the general public has no idea what they're looking at and media will find a way to take advantage of that lack of knowledge to spin completely normal stuff into a conspiracy theory.
Click to expand...

Whoever is obtaining and releasing OTHER CITIZENS' TAX RETURNS is s FELON.
 
jimbo said:
Remove those loopholes affecting the 91% that pay half the taxes right after removing the loopholes that allow the 50% that pay nothing to pay nothing,
Click to expand...
What?

No.

Whatever percentage pays nothing doesn't have any to pay even if asked without negatively impacting their ability to live, so trying to tax them would be cruel and harm the economy far worse than doing what I said.

The economy runs on consumption, the less money consumers have to spend, the less is consumed, up to a point where everyone has everything they need and a later point where they have everything they want.

We're currently in a situation where a significant percentage don't have everything they need.
If anything, we should be subsidizing the major things they need so they can spend more on other areas, which would boost the economy.

For example, subsidizing health care and education.
Without those looming threats and constant weights holding down a goodly percentage of our population, I expect the economy would grow significantly for everyone, instead of just a few at the top in terms of wealth.
 
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