What We All Need To Do

SoCal said:

If the gulf between two sides is too great, there may be no middle ground. How do you compromise with a fundamentalist who believes abortion is murder? The liberal side might be able to live with reasonable restrictions, but can conservatives? If you truly think that 'kids' are being murdered, can you compromise with a murderer or would you never stop working to end the holocaust?

I believe it's the same with Trump supporters. Have you heard Trump, an administration official, Republican leader or poster here propose a compromise with liberals on the refugees crossing our southern border? All I've seen is Trump taking kids from their parents arms. If it was up to me, I'd never comprise with conservatives and 'meet in the middle', by agreeing to cut the number of kids being abused by half.

If you were a Jew in Nazi Germany, how could you compromise with a German citizen who supported Hitler and his policies? Supporters of other brutal dictators like Putin and the murdering Saudi Prince believe they have morals, ethics, principles and humanity. But do they? We need to compromise when there's some middle ground to meet on, but the bottom line is that sometimes one side is much closer to the middle than the other...

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Yes. According to numerous studies published in peer reviewed journals:

Research Finds That Racism, Sexism, and Status Fears Drove Trump Voters


When racism and sexism are the primary driving forces of a group of people, I don't see how can you compromise with them, unless they are willing to quit being racists and sexists. And from what I've been led to believe from discussions with many on the other side, that's not about to happen any time soon. In fact, they seem to becoming more more deeply entrenched in their racism, sexism, and fear, in the era of Trump.

Or perhaps there is no longer a social cost to revealing yourself as a racist and a sexist in the USA? That would make sense in light of Trump's constant attempts to appeal to the racists.

One group loved Trump’s remarks about Charlottesville: White supremacists

SoCal said:

Please re-read the post, you seem to have read something I didn't write.

Every refugee that claims persecution on the basis of race, religion, nationality or membership in a political or social group should be allowed to make their case rather than the standard knee jerk reaction by conservatives to send them all back.

In 1939, over 900 Jewish refugees from Germany aboard the St. Louis sailed for Cuba, but they refused to take them. So in desperation they asked for asylum here, but we also turned them away. The reason is clear, a poll taken the same year found that, "...53 percent regarded Jews as different from “real Americans"..."

Do you believe that the vast majority of those 53% were liberal or conservative?!? It seems that far too many conservatives never learn from their mistakes or would they do the same thing in 2018?

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In 1939, there was a real issue with the Nazis persecuting Jews. It was in all the papers. It's been widely reported since. I should have thought you'd have heard of this.

Those making the claims you cite today are leaving a country they don't like and walking across a country they don't like to get to this one.

They have already left the s---hole country they don't like, walked across another s---hole country and finally arrived here.

Hell! I wouldn't want to be there either. The country they left and the country they walked across have laws.

I don't have the legal right to live in their country and they don't have the legal right to live in the USA.

The question stands: Do you seriously assert that every person on the planet should be welcomed into our country regardless of legality?

Why do you avoid answering this question and yet seem to continue to cling to your belief that this is the case? It's okay. Your opinion is not legally binding on the USA. You can reply and not affect anything.

code1211 said:

You reveal your thinking, finally, in this. You see as "the enemy" your fellow countrymen. Your fellow countrymen are your allies.

Identifying the wrong people as your enemy is the basic misunderstanding the propagandists use to twist the thinking of the weak minded.

In your own home, if you live with a family unit, you share common interests. The same is true of citizens in a country.

Regardless of how many are in your family unit, though, you, as an individual, probably live in a defined space with securable and very likely secured barriers keeping the Unwelcomed out. Do you have a door you can close?

By the same token, the Welcomed are welcomed in. If you have a door you can close, you can open it also to those you invite.

Do you understand the concepts of real estate ownership and personal property? Before you take off on another rant about the mush you seem to like to spread, please consider these two concepts: Personal property and real estate ownership.

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Code, I had to laugh outright when reading your post because how you got the idea that I look at my countrymen as enemies is beyond me. If that was the case, I would not be talking to you and responding to all your comment the way I have, I would just tell you to go to hell.

I am not the one that has made this fight into a fight as that is something that Trump and the Republicans are doing. They are attacking and debasing not only the Democrats but anyone that doesn't agree with them. What I have been trying to do is find what makes us all human beings and use that to open the lines of communication so that we can unite under something.

I hate to say this but if you did not get that out of all my posts and you believe I am treating the Republicans as enemies, you have a communications and understanding problem and I would do something about it before you try to debate any issues here.

Incredible.

HumblePi said:

No idea who you're referring to with your accusation of "drone strikes against wedding parties and funerals." If you really want to travel down the 'finger-pointing' road, we can surely go there.

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Isn't finger pointing what these online chat rooms are all about? POTUS points fingers all the time, why shouldn't I?

If you don't know who was POTUS when drone strikes were being used and talked about regularly, then you must be very young or not paying attention. Bush started it with his claims to The Unitary Executive, and Obama enthusiastically followed suit. He, our "principled" POTUS and Winner Of The Peace Prize by Nobel.

Hawkeye10 said:

Drone assignations was a project of the Swamp, it was supposed to be an easy means to an end but of course the way that history will record the practice will be the demonstrations of the immorality and the stupidity of a rapidly failing Super Power, lead by second and third rate people who were generally sure that they were the best, who could not even begin to fathom the consequences of their actions.

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True, but they were ordered and sustained by a man you described as being ethical and principled and humane. I merely pointed out that you used the wrong words in describing POTUS.

Luckyone said:

Code, I had to laugh outright when reading your post because how you got the idea that I look at my countrymen as enemies is beyond me. If that was the case, I would not be talking to you and responding to all your comment the way I have, I would just tell you to go to hell.

I am not the one that has made this fight into a fight as that is something that Trump and the Republicans are doing. They are attacking and debasing not only the Democrats but anyone that doesn't agree with them. What I have been trying to do is find what makes us all human beings and use that to open the lines of communication so that we can unite under something.

I hate to say this but if you did not get that out of all my posts and you believe I am treating the Republicans as enemies, you have a communications and understanding problem and I would do something about it before you try to debate any issues here.

Incredible.

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Your response is everything that your previous post have taught me to expect.

DO YOU HAVE ANY UNDERSTANDING AT ALL ON THE MEANING OF PERSONAL PROPERTY OR REAL ESTAE OWNERSHIP?

This is not a difficult question to grasp and yet, it seems to leave you perplexed.

Mycroft said:

Your moral non-equivalence is nonsense.

Do you think the law-abiding people in Portland would agree with you that "Antifa is a nobody"? Watch these two videos and tell me that the people being targeted by Antifa verbal and physical abuse should think "Antifa is a nobody".

https://t.co/OgjZNByxat

https://t.co/AeXvhUKijO

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Here's how I see it. Playing up Antifa as significant (in America) is one of two things:

1. Trolling the alt right.

2. Saying "I'm a nazi".


I don't think you're trolling the alt right.

ecofarm said:

Here's how I see it. Playing up Antifa as significant (in America) is one of two things:

1. Trolling the alt right.

2. Saying "I'm a nazi".


I don't think you're trolling the alt right.

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Well, there you go...playing the "nazi" card again. I don't blame you since "how you see it" is caused by your anti-Trump blinders.

But what I do blame you for is disregarding the welfare of law abiding people...like the ones in those two videos...simply because you hate Trump.

Tell me...how far will you go? How much violence and bloodshed will you support from the likes of Antifa in your efforts to damage Trump?

Mycroft said:

Well, there you go...playing the "nazi" card again. I don't blame you since "how you see it" is caused by your anti-Trump blinders.

But what I do blame you for is disregarding the welfare of law abiding people...like the ones in those two videos...simply because you hate Trump.

Tell me...how far will you go? How much violence and bloodshed will you support from the likes of Antifa in your efforts to damage Trump?

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I don't hate Trump. I'm right wing on economics and foreign policy. I don't talk crap about Trump. Never have. Never bashed him. Not once. Advanced search/single type/username ecofarm/keyword Trump/show as posts. Now that your BS is exposed, let's move on to my point.

Making a big deal out of nothing to apologize for nazis is basically saying "I'm a nazi".

code1211 said:

Your response is everything that your previous post have taught me to expect.

DO YOU HAVE ANY UNDERSTANDING AT ALL ON THE MEANING OF PERSONAL PROPERTY OR REAL ESTAE OWNERSHIP?

This is not a difficult question to grasp and yet, it seems to leave you perplexed.

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Our conversations are over. I have no idea what you are trying to prove but it has nothing to do with the thread or anything we have talked about.

By the way and for your information. I am 73 years old, have owned 2 businesses, was a stock broker/analyst for the major brokerage firms for 10 years and consider myself intelligent above the average.

You are talking to me as if I was a baby and even then you are not making sense.

That's it between you and me.

ecofarm said:

I don't hate Trump. I'm right wing on economics and foreign policy. I don't talk crap about Trump. Never have. Never bashed him. Not once. Advanced search/single type/username ecofarm/keyword Trump/show as posts. Now that your BS is exposed, let's move on to my point.

Making a big deal out of nothing to apologize for nazis is basically saying "I'm a nazi".

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I stand corrected...maybe. Perhaps this post of yours reveals the real you:

ecofarm said:

Trolls love Trump. Supporting him is an unadulterated act of lunacy to be reveled in. It's always been this way. If I get bored, I might throw a few pro-Trump posts out there.

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It would certainly change the flavor of this thread OP of yours from a "bash Trump" post to a "bored troll" post.

ecofarm said:

President Trump, Ivanka and PM Trudeau Promote Women in Business - Yahoo Finance



https://uk.news.yahoo.com/donald-trump-tells-justin-trudeau-192802812.html


At the press conference today, Trump said he would be instituting a program to empower women entrepreneurs. This program will only be for women! What about equality? Why has Trump joined in the oppression of males with such an obviously biased program? Trumped has joined the feminists in their crusade to emasculate and marginalize men in our country.

Are we, as men, going to just sit back and take this? We must demand that Trump also create a program to empower male entrepreneurs!

What is causing Trump to attack men? Why does he think that men are not important? Why has Trump become an anti-male sexist? Is he a puppet of his evil man-hating daughter? Has Europe and Canada, as he mentions above, corrupted him?

This oppression cannot be allowed.

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So...are you trolling me? Hmmm?

Doesn't matter, since I've never apologized for nazis. Like Trump, I condemn ALL violent mobs...no matter what their motivation is.

Mycroft said:

I stand corrected...maybe. Perhaps this post of yours reveals the real you:

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There are trolls who support Trump and behave in such a manner. You read it wrong. That it was the only "example" you could find should have told you that.

Now, if you're done making this about me supposedly hating Trump, and using that as an excuse for your pro nazi positions, can we get back to you apologizing for nazis?

So...are you trolling me? Hmmm?

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Haha. You don't get it. Pathetic.

ecofarm said:

There are trolls who support Trump and behave in such a manner. You read it wrong. That it was the only "example" you could find should have told you that.

Now, if you're done making this about me supposedly hating Trump, and using that as an excuse for your pro nazi positions, can we get back to you apologizing for nazis?




Haha. You don't get it. Pathetic.

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Oh...it wasn't the "only" example of your trollish behavior. But hey...go ahead and make your excuses. I don't care.

But you can take your trolling tactics against me and shove them...where ever you like.

Moving on...

Mycroft said:

Oh...it wasn't the "only" example of your trollish behavior. But hey...go ahead and make your excuses. I don't care.

But you can take your trolling tactics against me and shove them...where ever you like.

Moving on...

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My attacks are on your pro nazi position. No reason for you to get all offended and emotional. If you can't defend your pro nazi position, just say so.

JustHanging said:

Yes. According to numerous studies published in peer reviewed journals:

Research Finds That Racism, Sexism, and Status Fears Drove Trump Voters


When racism and sexism are the primary driving forces of a group of people, I don't see how can you compromise with them, unless they are willing to quit being racists and sexists. And from what I've been led to believe from discussions with many on the other side, that's not about to happen any time soon. In fact, they seem to becoming more more deeply entrenched in their racism, sexism, and fear, in the era of Trump.

Or perhaps there is no longer a social cost to revealing yourself as a racist and a sexist in the USA? That would make sense in light of Trump's constant attempts to appeal to the racists.

One group loved Trump’s remarks about Charlottesville: White supremacists

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Wow, that's some scary reading and agree about them becoming even more entrenched.

I heard this a few weeks ago, don't know who said it, but I believe it sums up our situation quite well.

"When born into the group who controls a society, real equality feels like oppression"

I guess you can consider me a pessimist, but I belive things are going to get much worst before they get better and that's a big if...

code1211 said:

In 1939, there was a real issue with the Nazis persecuting Jews. It was in all the papers. It's been widely reported since. I should have thought you'd have heard of this.

Those making the claims you cite today are leaving a country they don't like and walking across a country they don't like to get to this one.

They have already left the s---hole country they don't like, walked across another s---hole country and finally arrived here.

Hell! I wouldn't want to be there either. The country they left and the country they walked across have laws.

I don't have the legal right to live in their country and they don't have the legal right to live in the USA.

The question stands: Do you seriously assert that every person on the planet should be welcomed into our country regardless of legality?

Why do you avoid answering this question and yet seem to continue to cling to your belief that this is the case? It's okay. Your opinion is not legally binding on the USA. You can reply and not affect anything.

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I've already answered your question (no), but apparently you'd rather parrot Numnuts, "sh_t hole" rant than accept it. Fox news probably never told you, but if you Google, "Central American refugees", you might be able to understand. Jewish people fleeing Hitler were no more deserving asylum than brown people fleeing the Northern Triangle.

"...More than 40 percent had a relative who was killed in the past two years. Thirty-one percent knew someone who was kidnapped; 17 percent knew someone who disappeared...

...In 2016, the U.S. government detained 224,854 people from El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras —less than one-tenth of 1 percent of the U.S. population. If they were allowed to stay, and even if the rate were maintained for a decade, it would still be a much smaller share of the U.S. population than previous waves of Irish, Italians, and Russian Jews. These groups were also greeted with suspicion, but now few would deny their value as Americans. Far from being an economic drain, refugees contribute to the economy, driven to succeed and often innovative...."

But does learning about the persecution of Central Americans matter to conservatives in the end?!? If in 1939, they thought Jews could never be, 'real Americans', why would they feel anything different about refugees from Central America?

We're a nation of immigrants, always have been and always will be. But we can always count on conservatives fearing and hating every new wave of immigrants, past present and future.

We're a nation of immigrants, but conservatives will never 'get over it'...

continued . . .
Sorry, I had intended to continue the discussion from my first post just a few hours later. Oh well.

I have been interested in politics and economics for over 50 years. My first inspirations came from JFK; I can remember me and three other boys spontaneously lowering the flag to half-mast when the first announcement of his death was made to my high school. And holding my girlfriend and crying on her shoulder as she cried on mine. It's hard to explain the inspiration JFK created in his short time on earth.

I grew up in an extremely liberal home. Both my mom and dad were ardent liberals (classic style, not the pseudo lib prog of today). My dad was also a union organizer and official - but the profession type we have today; he worked his job eight hours a day and did he union thing evenings and weekends.

Up to, through most of college I was a long-haired-hippy-wierdo-power-to-the-people-right-on type of guy. Some of us actually discussed going to Chicago for the 1968 Democratic Convention - that fell through. Over time I began perceiving that those leading the "power to the people" movement actually meant "Power to me and I'll tell the people what they want". I kind drifted away from that world.

Over time more reading and studying and real world experience began shaping my views (and still do, BTW).

Point is, to respond to the OP, what we can do is acknowledge that none of us has been endowed with celestial knowledge, the ultimate truth, the way of all things. Most of use have had their OPINIONS formed in ways similar to mine. For most people they don't find some charismatic individual and adapt his teaching and pronouncements as their guiding light and path to enlightenment. Instead, at least IMHO, they find a person whose pronouncement and policies match their own perceptions and beliefs.

I go through all this to suggest IF the OP wants to discuss what we should do the first step should be to get rid of all the "Trumpster", "Trumpkins", Trumpbots" etc. that seem to comprise about 75% of the left's dialog on this forum - fact is that most of us on the right have been advocating much of what trump has done for decades; and yes I'll admit I sprinkle a few "loony libs" around as well.

So, what do we do? We acknowledge that people that disagree with us have just as valid reasons for what they believe as we do for what we believe. Simple really, but also extremely difficult.

Hawkeye10 said:

Well you know Obama was a moral, ethical, principled and humane person and even though he is maybe 1/3 as smart as he thinks he is he had some good ideas when he asked for the job....reforming Washington being #1....and look what happened to him.

The Swamp chewed him up and spit him out.

You need a better plan.

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More likely he cynically mouthed slogans and talking points designed to make him seem like the post-partisan, post-racial messiah people would vote for. It worked. The swamp didn't chew him up, he created the swamp, weaponizing the IRS and FBI and the Justice Department.

SonOfDaedalus said:

Nope. What happened is Republicans regained the House and Senate and blocked everything. Liberals don't vote in the midterms.

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For historical accuracy the GOP didn't regain the Senate until 2014. The Dems DID lose there dominating control of the Senate in 2010 but retained the majority until then.

Luckyone said:

There are no religions or laws anywhere that support harming your neighbor for your own benefit, or separating children from their mothers without finding a way to reuniting them afterward, or debasing people just because they think differently than you do. These are basics of morals, ethics, principles and/or humanity and if you don't see it that way, you are in problems of even being a worthy representative of the human race.

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Being ethical is ALSO doing what the law requires.

SoCal said:

If the gulf between two sides is too great, there may be no middle ground. How do you compromise with a fundamentalist who believes abortion is murder? The liberal side might be able to live with reasonable restrictions, but can conservatives? If you truly think that 'kids' are being murdered, can you compromise with a murderer or would you never stop working to end the holocaust?

I believe it's the same with Trump supporters. Have you heard Trump, an administration official, Republican leader or poster here propose a compromise with liberals on the refugees crossing our southern border? All I've seen is Trump taking kids from their parents arms. If it was up to me, I'd never comprise with conservatives and 'meet in the middle', by agreeing to cut the number of kids being abused by half.

If you were a Jew in Nazi Germany, how could you compromise with a German citizen who supported Hitler and his policies? Supporters of other brutal dictators like Putin and the murdering Saudi Prince believe they have morals, ethics, principles and humanity. But do they? We need to compromise when there's some middle ground to meet on, but the bottom line is that sometimes one side is much closer to the middle than the other...

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I think we need to reconstitute one of the key political tools of the past that has become lost - compromise. For instance your example of abortion. Fact is it's not as black and white as you imply. Most polls recently show less than 20% believe that abortion should never be allowed whereas the remaining 80% feel it should be allow in all, or some circumstances. I'm guessing that a significant number of conservatives are amongst that 80%; me, for instance. It seems to me well-intended people should be able to work out something. As yes, I realize well-intended people in Washington are few and far between.

Immigration? Seems like I remember Trump and the GOP offering something like a million dreamers a path to citizenship and the Dems turning them down.

Thoreau72 said:

True, but they were ordered and sustained by a man you described as being ethical and principled and humane. I merely pointed out that you used the wrong words in describing POTUS.

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Keep in mind that I say that Obama is a Lazy prick who has very bad judgement, so it is not all sweetness and light....

He wants to do the right thing, he just cant manage to get it done, or figure out what right is...

Luckyone said:

First of all and like with our system of law, there is the law that determines what is right and wrong. By the same token, morals, ethics, principles and humanity have very clear definitions that have been known since the beginning of time. For example, it is "wrong" to separate mothers from their kids and it is wrong to debase others, especially for just having a different opinion than yours.

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You mean like call those on the right "Trumpkins", "Trumpbots" or implying they've surrendered their intellectual integrity to Trump? [/quote]

Luckyone said:

The "middle ground" you refer to will always be found if you respect the other persons motives. This does apply to everyone, not just one side or the other

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And you claim you've done that?

Bullseye said:

I think we need to reconstitute one of the key political tools of the past that has become lost - compromise. For instance your example of abortion. Fact is it's not as black and white as you imply. Most polls recently show less than 20% believe that abortion should never be allowed whereas the remaining 80% feel it should be allow in all, or some circumstances. I'm guessing that a significant number of conservatives are amongst that 80%; me, for instance. It seems to me well-intended people should be able to work out something. As yes, I realize well-intended people in Washington are few and far between.

Immigration? Seems like I remember Trump and the GOP offering something like a million dreamers a path to citizenship and the Dems turning them down.

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You might be surprised to learn that a majority of Republicans still have a problem with a woman's right to an abortion;

"...Among American voters, 71% expressed support while only 23% thought the decision should be reversed.

More surprising, however, is that 52% of Republican voters polled expressed support for Roe v. Wade, a result at odds with policies put into place by GOP officials. Thirty-nine percent of Republicans polled opposed the landmark legal decision.…"

Regarding your comment on the GOP offer, I don't doubt that Republicans believe it was a fair proposal. It makes perfect sense if you believe taking children from their parents is 'fair'..

Bullseye said:

You mean like call those on the right "Trumpkins", "Trumpbots" or implying they've surrendered their intellectual integrity to Trump?

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And you claim you've done that?[/QUOTE]

I see that you did not reply to my other post where I said that you might as well invite the devil to dinner. You don't have a response to that?

As far as your post claiming that I have not respected other people's motives, show me one single post that I have written where I have stated that Republicans have different motives or that I don't respect them. That doesn't mean that I agree with their motives given that my objectives in life are different (morals, ethics, principles and humanity and then economics). What I have been doing from day one is asking people like yourself whether morals, ethics, principles and humanity are important to you.

I think you answered that clearly in your previous post.............empty soul.