Will the United States survive as a Democracy, or is it lost already?

If Faith in Democracy Ebbs, Danger Rises https://www.wsj.com/articles/if-faith-in-democracy-ebbs-danger-rises-1530535737

"In today’s divisive political climate, signs of a decline in confidence in democracy itself are starting to appear."


I believe that we're on a course that's going to completely destroy our democracy as we've known it. Our Constitution is becoming irrelevant. Our long respected institutions such as our federal courts and intelligence agencies are being stripped of their legitimacy and even made out to be 'the enemy'. Our Congress is unabashedly supporting a president that's obstructing justice on a daily basis. The law doesn't apply to everyone and only a select few are above the law. Senators seem to be okay with supporting an oligarch and authoritarian government in order to save their jobs. Other people are running our government and covering up the errors and bad judgments of the president. Our country is so deeply divided that some people are ready to go to war with their own people. I think we've already lost this country as a democratic republic, and if we haven't already, then we're pretty damned close to it.

It’ll survive for a good while more. We have our ups and downs but things tend to even out over time. Actually, over time they tend to improve for MOST metrics. That said, I don’t believe the US or any government will last forever. But I don’t think this administration will be the death knell.

HumblePi said:

If Faith in Democracy Ebbs, Danger Rises https://www.wsj.com/articles/if-faith-in-democracy-ebbs-danger-rises-1530535737

"In today’s divisive political climate, signs of a decline in confidence in democracy itself are starting to appear."


I believe that we're on a course that's going to completely destroy our democracy as we've known it. Our Constitution is becoming irrelevant. Our long respected institutions such as our federal courts and intelligence agencies are being stripped of their legitimacy and even made out to be 'the enemy'. Our Congress is unabashedly supporting a president that's obstructing justice on a daily basis. The law doesn't apply to everyone and only a select few are above the law. Senators seem to be okay with supporting an oligarch and authoritarian government in order to save their jobs. Other people are running our government and covering up the errors and bad judgments of the president. Our country is so deeply divided that some people are ready to go to war with their own people. I think we've already lost this country as a democratic republic, and if we haven't already, then we're pretty damned close to it.

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The Sky is falling! The Sky is falling!

Evil people are in charge of the government. If only we could put our own good people back in there then things might be okay again.

But there are soooo many deluded people who hate and fear the really really good things I believe in! Woe is me! America is dooooomed! :boohoo:

/sarcasm....

:coffeepap:

HumblePi said:

If Faith in Democracy Ebbs, Danger Rises https://www.wsj.com/articles/if-faith-in-democracy-ebbs-danger-rises-1530535737

"In today’s divisive political climate, signs of a decline in confidence in democracy itself are starting to appear."


I believe that we're on a course that's going to completely destroy our democracy as we've known it. Our Constitution is becoming irrelevant. Our long respected institutions such as our federal courts and intelligence agencies are being stripped of their legitimacy and even made out to be 'the enemy'. Our Congress is unabashedly supporting a president that's obstructing justice on a daily basis. The law doesn't apply to everyone and only a select few are above the law. Senators seem to be okay with supporting an oligarch and authoritarian government in order to save their jobs. Other people are running our government and covering up the errors and bad judgments of the president. Our country is so deeply divided that some people are ready to go to war with their own people. I think we've already lost this country as a democratic republic, and if we haven't already, then we're pretty damned close to it.

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Speaking as a Conservative, I see much of what you are seeing, except in photo-negative reverse. But I am not going to nitpick you to death, point out what I see are inaccuracies, or get into a dispute as to why I think you are ultimately wrong in your particular views.

I will say this: It is easy to think our country is doomed and to feel a knotted sense of dread in your stomach if you are on the internet, social media and arguing on forums like this day in and day out and being fed an unending river of miserable bilge by every doomsayer on your Twitter, Facebook and Youtube feeds. When most people go outside, when you spend time with your neighbors, when we actually deal with our daily lives in our community...things are fine. The Republic has endured worse things over two hundred years. It endured us having genuinely terrible Presidents while we were in the midst of existential crises like the Cold War and the nuclear arms race. It will endure Trump and the insane overwrought backlash against Trump.

Here is my thought to you: Stop and smell the roses. Take the time to take your spouse or significant other out on a date, or if you do not have a significant other, go out with some friends. Have a bite to eat. Have some fun. Take in some culture. Maybe make a meal and watch an old movie. Perhaps read a book. Spend an evening not consumed with checking the most recent updates on your feed. I do it regularly. My wife and I are happier for it.

HumblePi said:

If Faith in Democracy Ebbs, Danger Rises https://www.wsj.com/articles/if-faith-in-democracy-ebbs-danger-rises-1530535737

"In today’s divisive political climate, signs of a decline in confidence in democracy itself are starting to appear."


I believe that we're on a course that's going to completely destroy our democracy as we've known it. Our Constitution is becoming irrelevant. Our long respected institutions such as our federal courts and intelligence agencies are being stripped of their legitimacy and even made out to be 'the enemy'. Our Congress is unabashedly supporting a president that's obstructing justice on a daily basis. The law doesn't apply to everyone and only a select few are above the law. Senators seem to be okay with supporting an oligarch and authoritarian government in order to save their jobs. Other people are running our government and covering up the errors and bad judgments of the president. Our country is so deeply divided that some people are ready to go to war with their own people. I think we've already lost this country as a democratic republic, and if we haven't already, then we're pretty damned close to it.

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The United States is not a Democracy. It's a Republic. I wish people would learn the difference.

What is the Difference Between a Republic and a Democracy?

Skeptic Bob said:

It’ll survive for a good while more. We have our ups and downs but things tend to even out over time. Actually, over time they tend to improve for MOST metrics. That said, I don’t believe the US or any government will last forever. But I don’t think this administration will be the death knell.

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Nope. Not if the GOP maintains its triple lock on power.

HumblePi said:

If Faith in Democracy Ebbs, Danger Rises https://www.wsj.com/articles/if-faith-in-democracy-ebbs-danger-rises-1530535737

"In today’s divisive political climate, signs of a decline in confidence in democracy itself are starting to appear."


I believe that we're on a course that's going to completely destroy our democracy as we've known it. Our Constitution is becoming irrelevant. Our long respected institutions such as our federal courts and intelligence agencies are being stripped of their legitimacy and even made out to be 'the enemy'. Our Congress is unabashedly supporting a president that's obstructing justice on a daily basis. The law doesn't apply to everyone and only a select few are above the law. Senators seem to be okay with supporting an oligarch and authoritarian government in order to save their jobs. Other people are running our government and covering up the errors and bad judgments of the president. Our country is so deeply divided that some people are ready to go to war with their own people. I think we've already lost this country as a democratic republic, and if we haven't already, then we're pretty damned close to it.

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This is why giving too much power to a centralized government is a bad idea, especially when much of the power is delegated to one individual. The constant chipping away of the constitution didn't begin with Trump, it has been an on going process over a long period of time, Trump and the polarization we see today is merely a warning sign that we need retighten the constraints on the Presidency and the federal government. You wouldn't see so much frustration and panic over federal elections if it the power was more localized so that people don't feel the pressure to NEED their party in power to prevent the other from pushing their policies on them. This is central cause for the growing animosity between the parties and why the other is viewed as the enemy rather than a fellow American. At the rate we going, I sadly expect a second civil war in my lifetime.

Kal'Stang said:

The United States is not a Democracy. It's a Republic. I wish people would learn the difference.

What is the Difference Between a Republic and a Democracy?

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You gotta quit that nonsense.
Of course it's a republic. But the two are not mutually exclusive, and seeing as how NO NATION HAS EVER been a PURE democracy, it is accepted as common knowledge that when the term "democracy" is used, it typically refers to representative democracy, which in our case, functions in a constitutional republic.

Kal'Stang said:

The United States is not a Democracy. It's a Republic. I wish people would learn the difference.

What is the Difference Between a Republic and a Democracy?

Click to expand...

I think you may have jumped the gun a bit, he did refer to the country as a Democratic Republic in his post.

Democracy is self defeating. If we can’t maintain the restraints on it we are screwed.

Nap said:

This is why giving too much power to a centralized government is a bad idea, especially when much of the power is delegated to one individual. The constant chipping away of the constitution didn't begin with Trump, it has been an on going process over a long period of time, Trump and the polarization we see today is merely a warning sign that we need retighten the constraints on the Presidency and the federal government. You wouldn't see so much frustration and panic over federal elections if it the power was more localized so that people don't feel the pressure to NEED their party in power to prevent the other from pushing their policies on them. This is central cause for the growing animosity between the parties and why the other is viewed as the enemy rather than a fellow American. At the rate we going, I sadly expect a second civil war in my lifetime.

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You make a very good point and a strong case for limited gov.

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Show me one form of government that has never fallen or been modified over history.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

You gotta quit that nonsense.
Of course it's a republic. But the two are not mutually exclusive, and seeing as how NO NATION HAS EVER been a PURE democracy, it is accepted as common knowledge that when the term "democracy" is used, it typically refers to representative democracy, which in our case, functions in a constitutional republic.

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I wouldn't have to say that "nonsense" if people would stop acting like we're a pure democracy. Ex: Complaining about the Electoral College and Hillary not winning even though she got the majority of the popular vote.

trouble13 said:

You make a very good point and a strong case for limited gov.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I467 using Tapatalk

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It would seem to me that having the primary governing body as localized as possible ensures more freedom and gives more power to the people to govern themselves. IMO the federal government should largely defer to the states and only intrude when a state infringes on the rights of it's people. The idea that a governing body of people a 1,000 miles away will know what is best for the people of a particular area just seems ludicrous to me. This country is far too large to believe that top down government will be effective, especially given the vast cultural diversity in this country. For instance, the values of the people in California and that of Mississippi are vastly different with California largely secular and Mississippi dead center in the bible belt, of course people in Mississippi (and other states that don't share the same culture) are going to resent people in states like California as they will feel like they have no power in governing their own lives. You largely see this among the so called "Fly over" states in regards to New York and California, to them they represent oppression and rather than fellow countrymen (and women) they see them as the enemy. Simply look at the snide comments and jokes in threads about those states and you can see the animosity held towards them. If we were to remove the potential for the federal government to impose on the states we can ease the tension and the wedge between us would dissipate. If we continue to try and use the federal government to enforce the policies we like on everyone regardless if they agree, the gap will continue to grow and inevitably a house divided will not stand.

HumblePi said:

If Faith in Democracy Ebbs, Danger Rises https://www.wsj.com/articles/if-faith-in-democracy-ebbs-danger-rises-1530535737

"In today’s divisive political climate, signs of a decline in confidence in democracy itself are starting to appear."


I believe that we're on a course that's going to completely destroy our democracy as we've known it. Our Constitution is becoming irrelevant. Our long respected institutions such as our federal courts and intelligence agencies are being stripped of their legitimacy and even made out to be 'the enemy'. Our Congress is unabashedly supporting a president that's obstructing justice on a daily basis. The law doesn't apply to everyone and only a select few are above the law. Senators seem to be okay with supporting an oligarch and authoritarian government in order to save their jobs. Other people are running our government and covering up the errors and bad judgments of the president. Our country is so deeply divided that some people are ready to go to war with their own people. I think we've already lost this country as a democratic republic, and if we haven't already, then we're pretty damned close to it.

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Well, since it NEVER WAS a "Democracy", probably not.


The United States is a Constitutional Representative Republic...thankfully.

A DEMOCRACY is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner....


If we can successfully beat back the leftist/globalists...we have a good chance to hang in there for a good , long while.

HumblePi said:

If Faith in Democracy Ebbs, Danger Rises https://www.wsj.com/articles/if-faith-in-democracy-ebbs-danger-rises-1530535737

"In today’s divisive political climate, signs of a decline in confidence in democracy itself are starting to appear."


I believe that we're on a course that's going to completely destroy our democracy as we've known it. Our Constitution is becoming irrelevant. Our long respected institutions such as our federal courts and intelligence agencies are being stripped of their legitimacy and even made out to be 'the enemy'. Our Congress is unabashedly supporting a president that's obstructing justice on a daily basis. The law doesn't apply to everyone and only a select few are above the law. Senators seem to be okay with supporting an oligarch and authoritarian government in order to save their jobs. Other people are running our government and covering up the errors and bad judgments of the president. Our country is so deeply divided that some people are ready to go to war with their own people. I think we've already lost this country as a democratic republic, and if we haven't already, then we're pretty damned close to it.

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I think this has gone on for years. We are just being made aware of it faster, more often and with more details because of technology. We don't find things out by reading the newspaper or the 6 O'clock news.

Kal'Stang said:

The United States is not a Democracy. It's a Republic. I wish people would learn the difference.

What is the Difference Between a Republic and a Democracy?

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Most people know the US is a constitutional democratic republic. People who claim the US is not a democracy usually don't know the difference between a representative democracy and a direct democracy. I wish they would learn the difference, too.

Grokmaster said:

Well, since it NEVER WAS a "Democracy", probably not.


The United States is a Constitutional Representative Republic...thankfully.

A DEMOCRACY is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner....


If we can successfully beat back the leftist/globalists...we have a good chance to hang in there for a good , long while.

Click to expand...

The US is a constitutional representative democratic republic.

"Hang" is good choice of words for what the right wing has done to this country.

Yes, we will survive. Our country is like a ship that goes thru rough waters. It rocks up and down, gets tossed about, but does not sink.

My observation

Nap said:

At the rate we going, I sadly expect a second civil war in my lifetime.

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Never will happen; you'll never be able to pull the millennials away from their keyboards. The only wars they'll ever fight are either those on the computer screen or paintball.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

You gotta quit that nonsense.
Of course it's a republic. But the two are not mutually exclusive, and seeing as how NO NATION HAS EVER been a PURE democracy, it is accepted as common knowledge that when the term "democracy" is used, it typically refers to representative democracy, which in our case, functions in a constitutional republic.

Click to expand...

Kal'Stang said:

I wouldn't have to say that "nonsense" if people would stop acting like we're a pure democracy. Ex: Complaining about the Electoral College and Hillary not winning even though she got the majority of the popular vote.

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This conversation has to play out.

By technicality you are both right, the US is a Constitutional Republic that functions as a Representative Democracy. If for no other reason than having troubles categorizing the nation in different governmental theory terms.

But there is a conversation to be had about the US sliding down a scale that a Democracy can find itself in once enough principles of the Constitution are discarded. Or at least at a minimum sidestepped to the point of escalation in marginalizing a minority, that is the inverse of tyranny of the majority.

What Kal'Stang might be getting at is by design the US Constitutional Republic is intended to be government limiting in part by Constitutional terms but also by granting Individual Liberties. Not every Representative Democracy out there has the same design or intention (even if they look and function more or less the same.)

The point being that once the power of governance is realized to the point that Constitutionality is in question, that escalates the idea of the majority using the power of governance as a weapon against a minority. That principle is one, of many ideas, on why some propose that a Democracy tends to destroy itself on a long enough timeline and odds are slides into some form of higher government influence and control of economics, society, increased law, etc.

You could argue well that we started that transition a long way back. Some pointing to the fallout of the Great Depression and all that government did in response, others may point to the time frame around the Civil War and all the fallout from that event plus the Constitutional Amendments of the period.

Regardless it is a well established conclusion that US governance today is a far departure from the intentions of the Constitution. For all the US has done right and wrong, for all our achievements and all the skeletons in our closet, we have shifted how governance interacts with the people on both an economic and social level. Just about every domestic argument ole (D) and (R) has today boils down to what influence into these areas they take next.

This was all amplified... massively... by another idea that a Democracy can also suffer from. Voting based on treasury promise. The idea of voting to have less contribution in taxation, more from government spending, or some terrible combination of the two. That is realized, and established fact on how Democrats and Republicans function for power, which by accident or design degrades a Representative Democracy to some failure down the road.

All this gives the OP idea merit, and warrants discussion...

Captain Adverse said:

The Sky is falling! The Sky is falling!

Evil people are in charge of the government. If only we could put our own good people back in there then things might be okay again.

But there are soooo many deluded people who hate and fear the really really good things I believe in! Woe is me! America is dooooomed! :boohoo:

/sarcasm....

:coffeepap:

Click to expand...

The problem is, when the sky really is falling, there are plenty of people who take this attitude. Often, very dark times start out looking only a little bad. There were a great many people who thought Hitler was no big deal, even after he had marched on Poland, Belgium, and France, for example.

There were plenty of people working in the finance industry who were quite optimistic come New Year's Day 1930. All the hubbub about a depression was just hyperbole, in their minds. And there were headlines in major newspapers for the next three years that things were going to get better shortly, and that things weren't actually so bad, so nothing to worry about.

Very often, our worst fears are not realized. But occasionally, they are. I agree we should be slow to think the worst has come. But I've been watching things gradually unravel my entire life, since I was a teenager. And I've studied history. I think we may well be in a very risky time--not that the worst is now inevitable. But the risks are greater than many appreciate, and there's no sign of political sanity on the horizon that I can see.

HumblePi said:

If Faith in Democracy Ebbs, Danger Rises https://www.wsj.com/articles/if-faith-in-democracy-ebbs-danger-rises-1530535737

"In today’s divisive political climate, signs of a decline in confidence in democracy itself are starting to appear."


I believe that we're on a course that's going to completely destroy our democracy as we've known it. Our Constitution is becoming irrelevant. Our long respected institutions such as our federal courts and intelligence agencies are being stripped of their legitimacy and even made out to be 'the enemy'. Our Congress is unabashedly supporting a president that's obstructing justice on a daily basis. The law doesn't apply to everyone and only a select few are above the law. Senators seem to be okay with supporting an oligarch and authoritarian government in order to save their jobs. Other people are running our government and covering up the errors and bad judgments of the president. Our country is so deeply divided that some people are ready to go to war with their own people. I think we've already lost this country as a democratic republic, and if we haven't already, then we're pretty damned close to it.

Click to expand...

Yes, the United States of America is changing from a democratic republic to the kind of society that is evolving in states such as California, New York, Massachusetts, etc.

HumblePi said:

If Faith in Democracy Ebbs, Danger Rises https://www.wsj.com/articles/if-faith-in-democracy-ebbs-danger-rises-1530535737

"In today’s divisive political climate, signs of a decline in confidence in democracy itself are starting to appear."


I believe that we're on a course that's going to completely destroy our democracy as we've known it. Our Constitution is becoming irrelevant. Our long respected institutions such as our federal courts and intelligence agencies are being stripped of their legitimacy and even made out to be 'the enemy'. Our Congress is unabashedly supporting a president that's obstructing justice on a daily basis. The law doesn't apply to everyone and only a select few are above the law. Senators seem to be okay with supporting an oligarch and authoritarian government in order to save their jobs. Other people are running our government and covering up the errors and bad judgments of the president. Our country is so deeply divided that some people are ready to go to war with their own people. I think we've already lost this country as a democratic republic, and if we haven't already, then we're pretty damned close to it.

Click to expand...

You are correct. I would advise everyone to read the excellent book HOW DEMOCRACIES DIE by Levitsky & Ziblatt. It lays it all out for everyone to see.

Kal'Stang said:

The United States is not a Democracy. It's a Republic. I wish people would learn the difference.

What is the Difference Between a Republic and a Democracy?

Click to expand...

It is a Republic built on Norms and Laws which its founders understood, warning us that the one great risk, the one weakness it had was the exact dynamic we have today. So frankly I don't have much faith in the "its OK crowd" when the very people that founded this Republic are telling me that its not OK. Its OK if the Republic functions as it is intended and not OK if not. The very fact of the complete capitulation of the Congress in its legislative authorities, functions, powers and obligations is all one need to look at to recognize that this is far from OK.