Never Forget 11 September 2001. Never

Our nation and our people are arguably more divided now than at any point since the 1960s. And there's more dissonance between us and our allies than at any point since Vietnam or even, perhaps, since the end of WWII. But let us never forget that our resolve and our decency remain. And that we do have, all the nonsense on the internet aside, more in common than we have to fight about.

God bless those Americans and our friends who died 18 years ago today. And God bless our brothers and sisters who have died in the cause of defeating transnational terrorism in the years since.

Let's share love with all peace-loving people--white, black, brown, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and everyone of every stripe the world over today. We will always win. Long-term, good and rational people will ultimately choose life over death. And we will prevail over those who choose death over life.

Well wishes to you all and your families on a day that we should all be contemplating.

And...

Mandatory Navy picture from my old ship...

How could anyone forget it? It has been used in attempt to justify so many infringements to individual freedom since.

Anarchon said:

How could anyone forget it? It has been used in attempt to justify so many infringements to individual freedom since.

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Yeah, you're definitely one of the reasons the US is so divided.

Anarchon said:

How could anyone forget it? It has been used in attempt to justify so many infringements to individual freedom since.

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Let's not do that. This isn't a question of cheap policy or talking points, really. It's a consideration of the greater human cost and the weighty questions of how we arrived at certain points and how we can best understand our past sacrifices and mistakes...and our best way forward.

LincolnRossiter said:

Let's not do that. This isn't a question of cheap policy or talking points, really. It's a consideration of the greater human cost and the weighty questions of how we arrived at certain points and how we can best understand our past sacrifices and mistakes...and our best way forward.

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I think I've given you a good start.

Anarchon said:

I think I've given you a good start.

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I won't take that bait. I would bet a month of Sundays that I've had more time and more cause to think about our FP and its shortcomings than you have. But since you allude to anarchy in your screenname, I guess you're probably especially intelligent or something.

Actually, this isn't meant to be that kind of thread, so just take a walk. Start a thread and PM me if you really want to mix it up about the "war on terror." I'm not going to use this thread to take you from philosophy/libertarianism 101 to philosophy/libertarianism 102.

Be well.

LincolnRossiter said:

Mandatory Navy picture from my old ship...

View attachment 67240147

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Which carrier?

Redress said:

Which carrier?

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John C. Stennis (CVN 74).

LincolnRossiter said:

I won't take that bait. I would bet a month of Sundays that I've had more time and more cause to think about our FP and its shortcomings than you have.

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You may test that assumption at your convenience.

But since you allude to anarchy in your screenname, I guess you're probably especially intelligent or something.

Actually, this isn't meant to be that kind of thread, so just take a walk. Start a thread and PM me if you really want to mix it up about the "war on terror." I'm not going to use this thread to take you from philosophy/libertarianism 101 to philosophy/libertarianism 102.

Be well.

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Unfortunately for you, you don't get to dictate peoples' responses or their opinions. That date means different things to different people.

Anarchon said:

You may test that assumption at your convenience..

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Thank you. I’ll settle for what works for you. Sincerely. Obviously 0300EDT on a Tuesday isn’t ideal for anyone on the East Coast.

And of course there’s some part of us all that would love to dictate reality to the casual masses. But we grow out of that. I was a freshman in college (in upstate NY) when the attacks happened. And I spent nearly half my adult life overseas (in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East) trying to understand how others perceive the world and world events; but I’m honestly open to your perspective as well.

I would prefer it in another thread, but if you think you can surprise me in this one go for it. I don’t make the rules.

Hard to believe that it's been 17 years.

It was night time here and I was just a teenager on the other side of the world when it happened. Hard to comprehend at the time, i couldn't believe my eyes. There's been some incredible stories over the years of personal accounts and acts of bravery committed on that day. Just recently I watched a documentary of the team that are still working 17 years later, to try and identify all of the remains of the victims. Truly dedicated, amazing folks. Heartbreaking.

Serenity said:

Hard to believe that it's been 17 years.

It was night time here and I was just a teenager on the other side of the world when it happened. Hard to comprehend at the time, i couldn't believe my eyes. There's been some incredible stories over the years of personal accounts and acts of bravery committed on that day. Just recently I watched a documentary of the team that are still working 17 years later, to try and identify all of the remains of the victims. Truly dedicated, amazing folks. Heartbreaking.

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Yes it’s hard to believe it happened so long ago but now so much has been declassified that nearly all the conspiracy theorists for it are gone. I watched a documentary on the 15th anniversary and was just amazed how much info we have out in the public now as to when it happened.

LincolnRossiter said:

Our nation and our people are arguably more divided now than at any point since the 1960s. And there's more dissonance between us and our allies than at any point since Vietnam or even, perhaps, since the end of WWII. But let us never forget that our resolve and our decency remain. And that we do have, all the nonsense on the internet aside, more in common than we have to fight about.

God bless those Americans and our friends who died 18 years ago today. And God bless our brothers and sisters who have died in the cause of defeating transnational terrorism in the years since.

Let's share love with all peace-loving people--white, black, brown, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and everyone of every stripe the world over today. We will always win. Long-term, good and rational people will ultimately choose life over death. And we will prevail over those who choose death over life.

Well wishes to you all and your families on a day that we should all be contemplating.

And...

Mandatory Navy picture from my old ship...

View attachment 67240147

Click to expand...

The fact that is was an attack on Us by radical islamists, who are STILL BEING FUNDED, by Iran/etal, and still carrying out terror attacks, is what we "should never forget."

Just over 2,700 people were killed in the WTC attacks. It was tragic.

Since then, literally millions of innocent civilians in the Middle East have died as a direct result of our nation's foreign policy.

"Never forget" is apt.

Anarchon said:

How could anyone forget it? It has been used in attempt to justify so many infringements to individual freedom since.

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Interesting focus you have.

Thousands killed, far more victims on every level. Companies destroyed and jobs lost. Over a trillion lost, not counting the over trillion more on wars, still more thousands of American lives lost in wars, tens of thousands wounded terribly, tens to hundreds of thousands of enemy military and civilian deaths...

... but what matters most in your message is that some day somehow you might be inconvenienced out of it by acts of law passed by our government for domestic and foreign national security.

Northern Light said:

Just over 2,700 people were killed in the WTC attacks. It was tragic.

Since then, literally millions of innocent civilians in the Middle East have died as a direct result of our nation's foreign policy.

"Never forget" is apt.

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Wow! What an extreme accusation against our military personnel! :roll:

You favor the Democratic Party over the Republican Party, correct?

I didn't know anything had happened until I happened to phone someone. That person made some comment and I asked him what he's talking about. His response? "Its like its the end of the world. We have been attacked and are at war..."

LincolnRossiter said:

Thank you. I’ll settle for what works for you. Sincerely. Obviously 0300EDT on a Tuesday isn’t ideal for anyone on the East Coast.

And of course there’s some part of us all that would love to dictate reality to the casual masses. But we grow out of that. I was a freshman in college (in upstate NY) when the attacks happened. And I spent nearly half my adult life overseas (in Europe, Africa, and the Middle East) trying to understand how others perceive the world and world events; but I’m honestly open to your perspective as well.

I would prefer it in another thread, but if you think you can surprise me in this one go for it. I don’t make the rules.

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We were told that the enemy of our liberty and security was some vague term called a terrorist. And, I, like most Americans, was stupid enough to believe them. The War on Terror(TM) began. I grabbed my rifle, and went to some folks' foreign land that had nothing to do with any of it, and told them how to live, if they could live. I was a proud patriot. I was also a damned immoral fool.

The military does not defend this country, the Constitution, nor your freedoms. If they did, they'd be in DC kicking a certain 545 peoples' teeth in. It doesn't defend itself from foreign invaders, either. Here, it only kills either the people that were here before them (Native Americans), or its own people as was done in the War of Northern Aggression (If you'd like to mention Pearl Harbor, remember that the military was already aiding Japan's enemies prior, and that Hawaii wasn't granted statehood until 1959, well after the war was over).

During this new WoT, it didn't matter that the US government precisely met the definition of being terrorists themselves. It didn't matter that the biggest threat to our liberty and security was actually the government on our own soil. It didn't even matter that the US itself had created these very "terrorists" that it now said was their enemy. This new WoT was used to justify the mass murder, endless occupation of other peoples' land, allocations of vast fortunes to oligarchs, the elimination the privacy of all its own citizens, and infringements of their freedoms in opportunistic power grabs along with it.

Your interest in foreign policy and world travel as a swabby don't change any of this. Even if you believe the US government could ever be legitimate, which I do not, it was created on principles of friendship and trade with other nations; not the empire building and the current military occupation of 150 of the world's 195 countries.

So, forgive me if there's no music playing and a flag waiving behind me when I think about 9-11.

Anarchon said:

We were told that the enemy of our liberty and security was some vague term called a terrorist. And, I, like most Americans, was stupid enough to believe them. The War on Terror(TM) began. I grabbed my rifle, and went to some folks' foreign land that had nothing to do with any of it, and told them how to live, if they could live. I was a proud patriot. I was also a damned immoral fool.

The military does not defend this country, the Constitution, nor your freedoms. If they did, they'd be in DC kicking a certain 545 peoples' teeth in. It doesn't defend itself from foreign invaders, either. Here, it only kills either the people that were here before them (Native Americans), or its own people as was done in the War of Northern Aggression (If you'd like to mention Pearl Harbor, remember that the military was already aiding Japan's enemies prior, and that Hawaii wasn't granted statehood until 1959, well after the war was over).

During this new WoT, it didn't matter that the US government precisely met the definition of being terrorists themselves. It didn't matter that the biggest threat to our liberty and security was actually the government on our own soil. It didn't even matter that the US itself had created these very "terrorists" that it now said was their enemy. This new WoT was used to justify the mass murder, endless occupation of other peoples' land, allocations of vast fortunes to oligarchs, the elimination the privacy of all its own citizens, and infringements of their freedoms in opportunistic power grabs along with it.

Your interest in foreign policy and world travel as a swabby don't change any of this. Even if you believe the US government could ever be legitimate, which I do not, it was created on principles of friendship and trade with other nations; not the empire building and the current military occupation of 150 of the world's 195 countries.

So, forgive me if there's no music playing and a flag waiving behind me when I think about 9-11.

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The military does help defend this country, the Constitution, and individual freedoms.

They help prevent those 545 people from getting their teeth kicked in by people like you who suggest violence over political action.

LincolnRossiter said:

Our nation and our people are arguably more divided now than at any point since the 1960s. And there's more dissonance between us and our allies than at any point since Vietnam or even, perhaps, since the end of WWII. But let us never forget that our resolve and our decency remain. And that we do have, all the nonsense on the internet aside, more in common than we have to fight about.

God bless those Americans and our friends who died 18 years ago today. And God bless our brothers and sisters who have died in the cause of defeating transnational terrorism in the years since.

Let's share love with all peace-loving people--white, black, brown, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and everyone of every stripe the world over today. We will always win. Long-term, good and rational people will ultimately choose life over death. And we will prevail over those who choose death over life.

Well wishes to you all and your families on a day that we should all be contemplating.

And...

Mandatory Navy picture from my old ship...

View attachment 67240147

Click to expand...

First off, great shot of that ship.

I want to agree with the rest of the post and perhaps in better times reciprocate the notion of unity when thinking about 9/11 and what it did to this nation.

But I cannot.

The history books are not going to be very kind to why 9/11 happened nor will they be all that kind about our response both domestically and internationally.

Domestically the things that our diverse nation has in common was considered for a brief moment, a nation unified in picking ourselves up and beginning to heal. However it was all to fast to see that cast aside for business as usual going back to our political, social, and economic divisions. Worse, the event itself was used for arguably one of the largest efforts to infringe on civil liberties for this generation. We strained a nation, strained our military, and watched a economy collapse in relatively short order.

We are no closer to unification, and between Bush 43 then Obama then Trump (with all their associated Congresses) we are the most divided we have been in decades.

Internationally we started a war (one that is technically not over and is now the 2nd longest running conflict in US history,) then started another war for seemingly dubious reasons (that is now on the list as the 5th longest conflict in US history.) Despite the hype we did not "defeat transnational terrorism" but rather escalated it. In pockets of Afghanistan those groups still exist as does the Taliban itself, and terrorism gained position in Iraq helping lead to the formation of ISIS. One could argue well that with almost 7000 US soldiers killed between Afghanistan and Iraq and roughly $5 Trillion spent that the greater Middle East region is still in chaos and still a hotbed for terrorism. We even doubled down on this with some efforts in Libya and Syria where we still see plenty of conflict, loss of life, and those we tend to call "terrorists" doing what they have been. Capitalizing on conflict.

We are no closer to peace, and we are no closer to defeating terrorism.

If we should be contemplating anything on 9/11... it should be honoring those lives lost, then asking ourselves... what did we learn? (It was not national unity, it was not achieving peace, nor appealing to freedoms, nor was it defeating an adversary.)

I'll apologize in advance to the whole of DP if offended by this post, but the OP decided to make a statement about all of this on 9/11... I needed to respond.

Serenity said:

Hard to believe that it's been 17 years.

It was night time here and I was just a teenager on the other side of the world when it happened. Hard to comprehend at the time, i couldn't believe my eyes. There's been some incredible stories over the years of personal accounts and acts of bravery committed on that day. Just recently I watched a documentary of the team that are still working 17 years later, to try and identify all of the remains of the victims. Truly dedicated, amazing folks. Heartbreaking.

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I was about 5 when it happened and I honestly don't remember it happening. My parents were overseas at the time.

LincolnRossiter said:

John C. Stennis (CVN 74).

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I was on the Eisenhower. Great pic, seeing cat 1 behind the sailors made me seriously nostalgic.

RetiredUSN said:

The military does help defend this country, the Constitution, and individual freedoms.

They help prevent those 545 people from getting their teeth kicked in by people like you who suggest violence over political action.

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Q: Who is, at the point of a gun, trying to take away your guns; put you on secret lists; force you to present your papers; wiretap your communications without a warrant; detain you without due process; tell you that you can't marry someone of the same sex; forbid you from saying what you want to say, report what you want to report; protest when and where you want to protest; or tell you that you can't smoke weed?

A: Those 545 people in DC are. It is not Osama Bin Brown-person.

If you claim the military is protecting them, you've only proven my point.

LincolnRossiter said:

John C. Stennis (CVN 74).

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74 was the first time I machined
All the shaft bolts the final fitting size. Hope none of those bolts never gave you'll any trouble.

joko104 said:

Wow! What an extreme accusation against our military personnel! :roll:

You favor the Democratic Party over the Republican Party, correct?

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Here's a comprehensive breakdown of casualties from the war on terror:
https://www.psr.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/body-count.pdf

It's not an accusation, it's a fact. And my political lean is none of your business, nor is it relevant to the facts.

Up to 2006 alone there were over 600,000 deaths in the Middle East. Fallujah alone decimated a city that is normally populated by over 300,000.

It's total BS that we have ceremonies mourning some 2,700 people killed in on 9/11 while there is total media silence on how many people we've killed overseas. You have to Google it and do real research to even find the numbers. The people in the WTC did not deserve to perish but it's pure indoctrination to omit the body count that has happened since.

Our nation has major blood on its hands, some of the worst in our history.