Here We Go, Sliding Into Hell

Anarchon said:

Yep. I'm part Cherokee. Hand it over!

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Well, you're in luck! I just happen to have, with me, a shiny bead and some firewater!

Anarchon said:

Those two concepts seem necessarily intertwined, however. I'd really like for any socialist to explain to me the particulars of how this "economic system" is accomplished without a supporting system of government designed for that goal.

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The only true socialist economies have been authoritarian regimes. It's still wrong to call the regime "socialist" if meant to describe the government structure. Those regimes vary in government structure. Some are effectively dictatorships with a pretense of being democratic oligarchies (early-mid USSR), so forth.

There are half-way points or part-way points, like countries considering themselves "democratic socialist". Government ownership of some means of production, government funding of other privately-owned means of production, with capitalism for everything else; Europe, with variations.

But in this country, not even single-payer health care is "socialist". It'd be government-purchased health care, but the persons provided it would still be private entities.





Whether or not you agree with that, what LowDown said is absurd. By no means is government taking and redistributing to private owners property " socialism". Government is quite literally abandoning its temporary ownership interest.

The USSR seized and kept that property. To some extent, that sort of thing made it a socialist economy. But it was still the authoritarian regime.

Is what South Africa doing "authoritarian"? To some extent, but then what I gather is that this isn't something they're imposing on everyone out of the blue. A lot of the population is on board. I confess to not being deeply steeped in what's goign on at the moment, but it sure as hell isn't what LowDown is saying.

AlbqOwl said:

CNBC, generally an Obama cheerleader and pretty much anti-Trump posts the following numbers:

The negative years in 2008 and 2009 were neither President Bush or President Obama's fault, but that is what deep recession looks like. Obama did produce positive growth in the next seven years and the cheerleaders said he left President Trump in good shape on the economy. That's only if you consider 1.9% growth or 2 something percent growth being in 'good shape.' If that is 'good shape', then South Africa is indeed in economic trouble.

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“The negative years in 2008 and 2009 were neither President Bush or President Obama's fault”

If you are going to assign responsibility for economic results to any one person, it’s going to be the president that most caused those results or to no one person at all. So, if any one person is to be responsible for the results of the Great Recession, it’s Bush2.

“That's only if you consider 1.9% growth or 2 something percent growth being in 'good shape.'”

Good shape is pre-recession unemployment levels, record corporate after-tax profits, average 1.4% inflation, average Fed rate below .5%, decreased deficit spending, lower household debt to GDP and lower total balance of trade deficit. Obama made a lot go very well with such a low GDP growth rate. That’s efficiency.

bluesmoke said:

“The negative years in 2008 and 2009 were neither President Bush or President Obama's fault”

If you are going to assign responsibility for economic results to any one person, it’s going to be the president that most caused those results or to no one person at all. So, if any one person is to be responsible for the results of the Great Recession, it’s Bush2.

“That's only if you consider 1.9% growth or 2 something percent growth being in 'good shape.'”

Good shape is pre-recession unemployment levels, record corporate after-tax profits, average 1.4% inflation, average Fed rate below .5%, decreased deficit spending, lower household debt to GDP and lower total balance of trade deficit. Obama made a lot go very well with such a low GDP growth rate. That’s efficiency.

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I'll just go with more conventional understanding of what healthy growth et al is using basic economic principles.

Obama's supporters spent eight years blaming a really sluggish economy and America's slow decline on Bush43. And now they are giving Obama the credit for Trump's booming economy and amazing numbers that we have not seen for a very long time, in many cases are seeing for the first time ever.

And for myself, I long for a return to an America that collectively understands when things are bad and collectively appreciates when things are good. Maybe I have enough years left to see that.

VanceMack said:

You first.

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I doubt he is aware of it, but he is actually arguing that all the Bantu peoples (Xhosa, Zulu, Ndebele, Swazi, etc) should be kicked out of South Africa, and their land handed over to the whites and Khoisan people who were there first.

LowDown said:

And yet another nation succumbs to bad ideology.

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You guys elected Trump. You have no room to criticize anyone else.

HK.227 said:

I doubt he is aware of it, but he is actually arguing that all the Bantu peoples (Xhosa, Zulu, Ndebele, Swazi, etc) should be kicked out of South Africa, and their land handed over to the whites and Khoisan people who were there first.

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MOST people that bleat on about South Africa have never bothered to study immigration,importation, where the majority of current black residents are from, etc. ALL they have the intellectual capacity to understand is "THATS RACIST!!!"

And the naivete surrounding the historical formation of nations and borders is in a word...stunning.

AlbqOwl said:

I'll just go with more conventional understanding of what healthy growth et al is using basic economic principles.

Obama's supporters spent eight years blaming a really sluggish economy and America's slow decline on Bush43. And now they are giving Obama the credit for Trump's booming economy and amazing numbers that we have not seen for a very long time, in many cases are seeing for the first time ever.

And for myself, I long for a return to an America that collectively understands when things are bad and collectively appreciates when things are good. Maybe I have enough years left to see that.

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“I'll just go with more conventional understanding of what healthy growth et al is using basic economic principles.”

Good. But, are you saying the facts I posted are not the foundation of basic economic principals and do not lend themselves or are not indicative of a healthy economy? If so, which of what I posted is not and why?

“Obama's supporters spent eight years blaming a really sluggish economy and America's slow decline on Bush43.”

Cite those times of blame.

“And now they are giving Obama the credit for Trump's booming economy and amazing numbers that we have not seen for a very long time, in many cases are seeing for the first time ever.”

Who are “they” and what exactly are they saying? The weak weeny Dems haven’t even bothered to make the case for Obama having laid the groundwork for Trump’s economic success. Or, do you have significant evidence otherwise?

“And for myself, I long for a return to an America that collectively understands when things are bad and collectively appreciates when things are good. Maybe I have enough years left to see that.”

Your regressive vision is of what never was. I hope you make your ten years plus.

bluesmoke said:

“I'll just go with more conventional understanding of what healthy growth et al is using basic economic principles.”

Good. But, are you saying the facts I posted are not the foundation of basic economic principals and do not lend themselves or are not indicative of a healthy economy? If so, which of what I posted is not and why?

“Obama's supporters spent eight years blaming a really sluggish economy and America's slow decline on Bush43.”

Cite those times of blame.

“And now they are giving Obama the credit for Trump's booming economy and amazing numbers that we have not seen for a very long time, in many cases are seeing for the first time ever.”

Who are “they” and what exactly are they saying? The weak weeny Dems haven’t even bothered to make the case for Obama having laid the groundwork for Trump’s economic success. Or, do you have significant evidence otherwise?

“And for myself, I long for a return to an America that collectively understands when things are bad and collectively appreciates when things are good. Maybe I have enough years left to see that.”

Your regressive vision is of what never was. I hope you make your ten years plus.

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This is too full of disconnect to take seriously. I'll just point out that Obama in a highly publicized speech just this week clearly stated that he was taking credit for ALL the good economic news we have been getting lately. As do countless others give him all the credit including on this message board. Enough said.

LowDown said:

And yet another nation succumbs to bad ideology.

Looks like South Africa is headed for the twin Hells of leftist totalitarianism and tribalism. Venezuela or Zimbabwe? Which shall it be? Or both?



Time for the usual suspects to chime in with a defense:

1. It's not really socialism.
2. It's not their fault. It's the fault of colonialists/the United States/the World Bank/etc.
3. Racist!

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-04/south-africa-unexpectedly-slides-recession-first-time-2009

(Marxists really hate successful farmers. Stalin killed all of his. Mugabe killed or chased off all of his, and now South Africa. I think they have something against food.)

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Fun fact. In the US the government is 30% of the economy. In Venenzuela it is only 25%. In South Africa it is 27%. In Zimbabwe it is also 27%.

AlbqOwl said:

This is too full of disconnect to take seriously. I'll just point out that Obama in a highly publicized speech just this week clearly stated that he was taking credit for ALL the good economic news we have been getting lately. As do countless others give him all the credit including on this message board. Enough said.

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Greetings AlbqOwl. :2wave:

The good economic news is Trump cancelling many of Obama's initiatives? :wow: How strange that Obama would ever publically say so, but far be it for me to wonder what he might have been referring to! :shrug: Weird!....

polgara said:

Greetings AlbqOwl. :2wave:

The good economic news is Trump cancelling many of Obama's initiatives? :wow: How strange that Obama would ever publically say so, but far be it for me to wonder what he might have been referring to! :shrug: Weird!....

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Well it doesn't seem to be in the DNA of the left to be really specific about much of anything. They'll call somebody a liar without specifying exactly what he/she lied about. They'll say that there should be income equality but don't have anything specific to offer to achieve that. They'll say that there should be social justice but cannot make a coherent argument for what that actually is. And so forth. So Obama is at least true to that kind of ideology when he speaks.

President Trump on the other hand is specific about what he says is good and bad. And he is attacked viciously by the Left and the neverTrumpers and/or permanent political class on the right pretty much no matter what he says.

AlbqOwl said:

Well it doesn't seem to be in the DNA of the left to be really specific about much of anything. They'll call somebody a liar without specifying exactly what he/she lied about. They'll say that there should be income equality but don't have anything specific to offer to achieve that. They'll say that there should be social justice but cannot make a coherent argument for what that actually is. And so forth. So Obama is at least true to that kind of ideology when he speaks.

President Trump on the other hand is specific about what he says is good and bad. And he is attacked viciously by the Left and the neverTrumpers and/or permanent political class on the right pretty much no matter what he says.

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The left can flip their position on an argument at the drop of a hat as soon as they believe it is politically advantageous to do so, with complete erasure and denial of any previous event, statement or history. Obama's speech is a perfect example of exactly that.

In 2016, Obama said that Trump couldn't possibly "bring job back" without some kind of a "magic wand". "There's no answer to it.", that 1% or 2% GDP growth was the new normal.

Now, in 2018, Obama takes credit for the "miracle" jobs recovery that he said would require Trump to use a "magic wand".

The two positions are impossibly antithetical to each other, and will never square against each other, yet many of those on the left unquestioningly and obediently applauds when the statement in 2018 is spoken by Obama in a public speech.

I guess many of those in the political left just like being lied to, and are more than prepared to believe those lies provided that the politician speaking them is of the "correct" political persuasion.

And yet, the left throws around claims of others being 'inconsistent' or 'hypocritical' or hyperpartisan.
It's a mystery to me how they keep getting away with it, and that no one calls them on it.
You'd think the journalists in the news media would 'speak truth to power' and 'hold politicians accountable', eh?
Nawww. They are among those applauding.

Sure, sure. Trump is a liar, some will claim. Well, that's especially true when he's taken completely out context on mere a fragment of what he said (that's like tying the bunny down spread eagle in order to beat him to death with a club), and beside that, Trump says a lot of **** that no one seriously believes, and takes seriously, and that includes many of those on the political right.

Once you give up hanging on every word of every leftist troll Trump utters, you'll blood pressure will come down, and perhaps your reason will return to you. But then again, maybe not. :shrug:

JustHanging said:

You guys elected Trump. You have no room to criticize anyone else.

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Sliding into fascist dictatorship at the hands of a madman appointed with the help of a hostile nation, and they're worried about Africa!

LowDown said:

Really? Really? How about Expropriation of private property and redistribution.

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Wasn't a lot of that property expropriated originally?

Manc Skipper said:

Sliding into fascist dictatorship at the hands of a madman appointed with the help of a hostile nation, and they're worried about Africa!

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Trump is no fascist, nor is he a madman, nor was he 'appointed' (he was elected), and so far there's no evidence of Trump campaign / Russian collusion.

What else you got?

AlbqOwl said:

This is too full of disconnect to take seriously. I'll just point out that Obama in a highly publicized speech just this week clearly stated that he was taking credit for ALL the good economic news we have been getting lately. As do countless others give him all the credit including on this message board. Enough said.

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The disconnect is that you are unable to connect supporting evidence to what you claim. What can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. As the claim-maker, the burden of proof is upon you. Without such proof, your claim is unfounded and dismissed without further argument necessary by me. The ball is in your court.

I would agree that Obama should be credited with today's economy to the extent of it being built upon his shoulders. Trump is riding on positive trends established under Obama. I just don't hear that from the Dems. They're a bunch of weak weenies. They acknowledge to good economy without giving credit to Obama for having been the one that started it all.

bluesmoke said:

The disconnect is that you are unable to connect supporting evidence to what you claim. What can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. As the claim-maker, the burden of proof is upon you. Without such proof, your claim is unfounded and dismissed without further argument necessary by me. The ball is in your court.

I would agree that Obama should be credited with today's economy to the extent of it being built upon his shoulders. Trump is riding on positive trends established under Obama. I just don't hear that from the Dems. They're a bunch of weak weenies. They acknowledge to good economy without giving credit to Obama for having been the one that started it all.

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Who cares if Obama wants to take credit for the surge in the economy due to the slashing of taxes and regulations? At least maybe now democrats will see that heavy regulation and taxation of businesses slows the economy.

distraff said:

Fun fact. In the US the government is 30% of the economy. In Venenzuela it is only 25%. In South Africa it is 27%. In Zimbabwe it is also 27%.

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I don't see how it can only be 27% in Venezuela since in practical terms there's nothing outside of the state there any more. (And how do you even calculate that with an inflation rate of 50,000%?) I suspect it's the same in Zimbabwe. South Africa has only started going down that road, so we'll see.

marke said:

Who cares if Obama wants to take credit for the surge in the economy due to the slashing of taxes and regulations? At least maybe now democrats will see that heavy regulation and taxation of businesses slows the economy.

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“Who cares if Obama wants to take credit for the surge in the economy due to the slashing of taxes and regulations? At least maybe now democrats will see that heavy regulation and taxation of businesses slows the economy.”

I disagree that Obama should take credit for any surge in the economy due to “the slashing of taxes and regulations”. I’m just saying that Obama started the upward trends in the economy that Trump is now riding. The economy was not “slowed”. Obama took the economy out of the worst recession since the Great Depression. The entire world was in a recession and the US recovery was quicker than any other country except Germany under Obama. Capital investment has not gone up anymore than under Obama. Corporate after-tax profits hit a record high under Obama. Unemployment returned to pre-recession levels under Obama. Trump did nothing more than jump on a moving train and then pass a tax plan and implement a deregulation policy that does nothing more than give away national treasure to the rich and corps without benefit to the average American family. There is plenty of factual evidence to back up all that I say. You can’t do the same so your word is worthless without significant evidence to support your claims.

bluesmoke said:

“Who cares if Obama wants to take credit for the surge in the economy due to the slashing of taxes and regulations? At least maybe now democrats will see that heavy regulation and taxation of businesses slows the economy.”

I disagree that Obama should take credit for any surge in the economy due to “the slashing of taxes and regulations”. I’m just saying that Obama started the upward trends in the economy that Trump is now riding. The economy was not “slowed”. Obama took the economy out of the worst recession since the Great Depression. The entire world was in a recession and the US recovery was quicker than any other country except Germany under Obama. Capital investment has not gone up anymore than under Obama. Corporate after-tax profits hit a record high under Obama. Unemployment returned to pre-recession levels under Obama. Trump did nothing more than jump on a moving train and then pass a tax plan and implement a deregulation policy that does nothing more than give away national treasure to the rich and corps without benefit to the average American family. There is plenty of factual evidence to back up all that I say. You can’t do the same so your word is worthless without significant evidence to support your claims.

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Malarkey mixed with baloney and served up ignorantly.

LowDown said:

And yet another nation succumbs to bad ideology.

Looks like South Africa is headed for the twin Hells of leftist totalitarianism and tribalism. Venezuela or Zimbabwe? Which shall it be? Or both?



Time for the usual suspects to chime in with a defense:

1. It's not really socialism.
2. It's not their fault. It's the fault of colonialists/the United States/the World Bank/etc.
3. Racist!

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-04/south-africa-unexpectedly-slides-recession-first-time-2009

(Marxists really hate successful farmers. Stalin killed all of his. Mugabe killed or chased off all of his, and now South Africa. I think they have something against food.)

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Rhodesia Redux. Get ready for wholesale slaughter, downplayed/ignored/rationalized by the world left/UN.

marke said:

Malarkey mixed with baloney and served up ignorantly.

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The ignorance is you refusing to accept the facts I posted which you cannot refute as you have no evidence to do so. Say what you will. Wallow in your ignorance. But you have no evidence to support the claims you made in your post to which I responded and no facts to contradict what I've said.