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The fatal flaw in leftist American politics

Grim17 said:
That's because I'm not a fan, or supporter of Donald Trump and don't want this serious issue to devolve into another Trump bashing thread. We have hundreds, if not thousands of those on this forum.

Trump does not represent conservatism, he is an oddity that ran under the republican banner and only won the presidency because he was seen as a better alternative than Hillary Clinton.

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Trump is the head of the Republican Party and enjoys 87% support from the GOP. He represents conservatism, Republicans, and his endorsement of candidates directly contributes to their greater success in primaries and special elections. He is, in fact, the purest manifestation of Republicanism right now.
 
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Cardinal said:
Trump is the head of the Republican Party and enjoys 87% support from the GOP. He represents conservatism, Republicans, and his endorsement of candidates directly contributes to their greater success in primaries and special elections. He is, in fact, the purest manifestation of Republicanism right now.
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I hate to agree.

Trump is simply the guy that is open about what many Republicans are secretly.
 
Grim17 said:
The left engages in the same behavior calling anyone who opposes their policy beliefs as racists, bigots, homophobes, etc... but that does not stop those on the right from condemning the racist radicals on the extreme right, and excluding them from political discussion. You won't find and conservative intellectuals that embrace them or espouse their beliefs.




I already conceded that some have condemned their violence, but what you haven't done is condemn them as a group. On the occasion that ANTIFA isn't violent, or at least there's no video of it, their protests are embraced fully by the left.

When racists organize a protest, you don't see anyone on the right ever embracing them or anything they have to say. The recent protests organised by racists in DC and Charlottsville attest to this.

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////when racists organize a protest,you don't see 'anyone' on the right ever embracing them//////. Trump said some of the racist protesters in Charlottesville were 'good people.'
 
Grim17 said:
I'm sorry that you find my asking for a civil, intelligent discussion of the topic, that's free from personal attacks and attempts to silence the discussion, an unreasonable request.

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Here you go...no bashing Trump and no personal attacks:

I am not interested in discussing anything with people or groups that refer to those who aren't conservative as "leftists".
For one thing, I am not interested in a conservative's definition of a "leftist" and I am not interested in even defending something I'm not.

There are indeed Leftist Americans. Scratch hard enough, you might even find Marxists.
The vast majority however are NEITHER. Seventy-five percent of the people who aren't conservatives and who identify primarily with Democrats are not "leftist" or "Marxist".
And Antifa are parasites.

So tell me, what is gained by discussing anything with a group of people who see me as a Marxist or a Leftist?
Serious question. I am not a Leftist and I am not a Marxist. You don't know what I am because you appear to be too busy trying to control the messaging from both sides of the conversation, thus it appears that I am not even welcome to participate.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Here you go...no bashing Trump and no personal attacks:

I am not interested in discussing anything with people or groups that refer to those who aren't conservative as "leftists".
For one thing, I am not interested in a conservative's definition of a "leftist" and I am not interested in even defending something I'm not.

There are indeed Leftist Americans. Scratch hard enough, you might even find Marxists.
The vast majority however are NEITHER. Seventy-five percent of the people who aren't conservatives and who identify primarily with Democrats are not "leftist" or "Marxist".
And Antifa are parasites.

So tell me, what is gained by discussing anything with a group of people who see me as a Marxist or a Leftist?
Serious question. I am not a Leftist and I am not a Marxist. You don't know what I am because you appear to be too busy trying to control the messaging from both sides of the conversation, thus it appears that I am not even welcome to participate.
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You obviously didn't watch the video because nothing in your post has anything to do with the subject that was addressed in it.

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Logician Man said:
////when racists organize a protest,you don't see 'anyone' on the right ever embracing them//////. Trump said some of the racist protesters in Charlottesville were 'good people.'
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This isn't about Trump.... Trump is a ****ng idiot and does not represent conservatism. Hell, he doesn't even represent the RNC. The chairperson of the RNC put out the following statement concerning Charlottsville:

"The hate and bigotry on display in Charlottesville is dangerous and cowardly. Free speech may give them the right to do this, but free speech also empowers us to unite to loudly speak out against it. Hatred will not define our country. We pray for the tragic loss of life and all the victims in Charlottesville."

The focus of this thread was to engage in a discussion about what was said by Jordan Peterson, and it's very disappointing how so few people seem to be capable of doing this.

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Winston said:
Well, I'm glad you acknowledge that. I thought you were a Trump supporter.
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I've never been a Trump supporter, but that doesn't mean I've been overtaken by TDS and therefore like so many around here, am completely incapable of discussing things that don't involve him.


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Cardinal said:
You clicked on the video? You're more generous than me.
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Since the video is the topic of this thread, it begs the question, is trolling an activity you enjoy and take pride in doing?


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Grim17 said:
This isn't about Trump.... Trump is a ****ng idiot and does not represent conservatism. Hell, he doesn't even represent the RNC. The chairperson of the RNC put out the following statement concerning Charlottsville:

"The hate and bigotry on display in Charlottesville is dangerous and cowardly. Free speech may give them the right to do this, but free speech also empowers us to unite to loudly speak out against it. Hatred will not define our country. We pray for the tragic loss of life and all the victims in Charlottesville."

The focus of this thread was to engage in a discussion about what was said by Jordan Peterson, and it's very disappointing how so few people seem to be capable of doing this.

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Until,or less, conservatives start calling Trump out en masse for what he is,Trump will be perceived as representing the 'right' and 'conservatism.'
 
Logician Man said:
Until,or less, conservatives start calling Trump out en masse for what he is,Trump will be perceived as representing the 'right.'
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Any comment on the video?

You know, the topic of this thread?
 
Grim17 said:
You obviously didn't watch the video because nothing in your post has anything to do with the subject that was addressed in it.

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Why should I watch a video aimed at leftists when I am not a leftist?
Tell me how it relates to me, and maybe I'll watch it, but seeing as how I am not a leftist, I assume it doesn't apply to me.
 
Grim17 said:
That's because I'm not a fan, or supporter of Donald Trump and don't want this serious issue to devolve into another Trump bashing thread. We have hundreds, if not thousands of those on this forum.

Trump does not represent conservatism, he is an oddity that ran under the republican banner and only won the presidency because he was seen as a better alternative than Hillary Clinton.

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That explains the general election outcome but not Trump coming out of nowhere (politically) and winning the the majority of republicant primaries thanks largely to the rest of the overcrowded republicant primary field attacking each other and foolishly thinking that Trump (rather than any of the professional, experienced politicians) would fall (fail?) based on Trump's lack of experience. Trump ran as a populist (swamp drainer?) with a ridiculous master plan of having a much larger federal government but with lower federal taxation and actually won with that nonsense.
 
Grim17 said:
I would respectfully like to ask a favor of those who are contemplating a response. Please watch the entirety of the video and respond to what was said on it, rather than simply ignoring the content and launching a personal attack on Jordan Peterson, or bashing Donald Trump.

The deterioration of civil political discourse in recent years has rendered serious political and ideological discussion a rarity. We need to have discussions about issues such as the one I'm trying to start here, and it can't happen as long there are closed minded people who use insults and personal attacks in an effort to prevent any intelligent discussion from taking place.

Thank you.

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Don't let the title fool you. This video is not a "Bash the left" tirade, but rather an observation of how individuals on both sides of the political spectrum have dealt with, or not dealt with, the radical elements that side with their political leanings. Peterson also expresses his opinion on the flaws that both sides possess, and his reasoning behind those opinions. There is also another element to this not presented in this video that I might bring up later, depending on the direction the conversation takes.



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I soon as I heard "loose egalitarian marxism", I can't even listen to this mish mash of psychobabble. That's all the world needs, is another pseudo intellectual of letters posing as an intelligent person. Give me Vidal, Hitchens, Russell, or Chomsky, or heck, on the right, I can tolerate Buckley, but this guy's not in their league.

I get it, he doesn't like liberalism.

BFD.

Next.
 
Logician Man said:
Post #2 echoes my sentiments regarding the video.
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So you also embrace the lie that he, and apparently every other left leaning person on this thread does, that Jordan Peterson has advocated for enforced monogamy?

Way to think for yourself.

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ttwtt78640 said:
That explains the general election outcome but not Trump coming out of nowhere (politically) and winning the the majority of republicant primaries thanks largely to the rest of the overcrowded republicant primary field attacking each other and foolishly thinking that Trump (rather than any of the professional, experienced politicians) would fall (fail?) based on Trump's lack of experience. Trump ran as a populist (swamp drainer?) with a ridiculous master plan of having a much larger federal government but with lower federal taxation and actually won with that nonsense.
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Wow... I didn't think you would try and turn this into another Donald Trump thread.

I now have to accept the fact that it is an absolute impossibility that any political thread created can be discussed without the subject of Donald Trump taking it over.

I rescind the thread, accept the truth, and bid everyone good night.

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Grim17 said:
I'm sorry that you find my asking for a civil, intelligent discussion of the topic, that's free from personal attacks and attempts to silence the discussion, an unreasonable request.

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You didn't just ask for a civil discussion, you asked that people confine their points to exclude all the examples you know show the double standard on the right.

I'm sorry that you're taking it personally, but that's just not how free debate works.
 
Grim17 said:
So you also embrace the lie that he, and apparently every other left leaning person on this thread does, that Jordan Peterson has advocated for enforced monogamy?

Way to think for yourself.

.[/QUote.....................tyvm
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Grim17 said:
Just a side note.... I asked if we could have a serious discussion and to please refrain from personal attacks and Trump bashing.

I really thought that people might for once, respect the topic and not attempt to stifle discussion. It saddens me that there are those who seem incapable of this.
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Inappropriate response to the thoughtful answers your post received, ignoring them and focusing instead on a couple of swipes at Trump.
 
Grim17 said:
So you disagree with his point and believe that the left has denounced ANTIFA and separated themselves from their violence and radical beliefs?

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You say "left" in your posts as if the left were a voice. It is an amorphous term of little value in the serious discussion you say you want. The video's title is too off putting for the same reason to tempt me. The left should be dead by now if it were fatally flawed. Instead, Democrats these days are vibrant.
 
Grim17 said:
This isn't about Trump.... Trump is a ****ng idiot and does not represent conservatism. Hell, he doesn't even represent the RNC. The chairperson of the RNC put out the following statement concerning Charlottsville:
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Trump is the leader of the GOP and the face of contemporary conservativism.

You want to handwave him away as if he doesn't exist while your entire side of the political spectrum blindly follows him, and yet you're upset the "the left" hasn't denounced (loudly enough?) some group most people haven't even heard of?

Clean up your own house first.
 
Shouldn't the title of the thread have been "The Flaw in Current American Political Discourse"

Seems to me the entire thread makes that point much better than the thread title chosen. Outside the purview of the tread itself, I would offer that if there is an issue worth contemplation, it is The Flaw in Current American Political Discourse and not The Fatal Flaw in Leftist American Politics.
 
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