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Trump vs. McCain: Trump won

ataraxia said:
John McCain's passing is being solemnly honored all over the country. He was known as a great statesman, as someone who put country and lofty ideals and American values above petty partisanship and tribalism. He respected his rivals, because he knew that even if he disagreed with them, that didn't make them bad people or people who deserved to be insulted. At the height of his presidential campaign against Obama, he stopped a woman who was starting to call Obama a Muslim, and saying how she was afraid. He reassured her that although he disagreed with Obama, he was a good man, and she had nothing to worry about. He will be remembered for his great legislative accomplishments and campaigns, such as his bipartisan pushes on immigration policy, or campaign finance legislation, or his crusade to ban the torture of terror suspects. He clashed with Trump on multiple fronts, including his support for free trade as being the best long term trade policy for the US, his support of the free press as the backbone of democracy, his revulsion for Russian strongman Vladimir Putin, his support for NATO, his championing of human rights all over the world, including for those seeking asylum from war-torn and unstable countries around the world, and his belief in a spirit of cooperation and bipartisanship.

"We argue and compete and sometimes even vilify each other in our raucous public debates", McCain wrote in his final farewell address. " But we have always had so much more in common with each other than in disagreement."

But as much as McCain is being honored today by decent Americans all over the country, the war for the soul of the Republican Party has been squarely won by Donald Trump and his brand of petty, relentlessly vindictive, and small-minded tribalism. He has learned that division, fear and hate-mongering, and paranoia are what the base wants. That Republican base is now squarely the party of Donald Trump. Trump's approval rating among registered Republicans now stands at 90%, compared to McCain at 32%.

So although Trump's insulting behavior and rhetoric toward McCain, both during his life and now as he has passed away, draws much disgust among Americans at large, it is unlikely to have much effect among his deplorable base. And it is unlikely we are ever going to see McCain's brand of politics from the GOP again for a very, very long time.

RIP, senator McCain. And thank you for your lifetime of service to our country.
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Yes, Trump has won over the Republican Party to his brand of obnoxious, in your face, brash politics which include temper tantrum throwing and name calling like a five year old child whose parents failed to teach him any manners. His petty vindictiveness against McCain tells us a whole lot about Trump.

For now anyway, Trump has taken over the GOP. He is president and any president regardless of party becomes that party's leader. A president's fellow members of his party in congress will try to give their president everything he wants. That too hasn't changed. Trump will probably be the leader of the GOP until he isn't president anymore.

Although if the Republicans take the whopping this midterm that is expected, at least by me, losing 40 or more seats in the house while not gaining any senate seats, the blame may rest squarely on Trump's shoulders. Could those in the Republican Party begin to shy away from Trump? I think so, at least those who aren't avid Trumpers.

How many of those are there in The GOP. At the end of January of 2017, 57% of Republicans viewed Trump very Favorably. Question 125. I equate very favorably to being a avid Trump supporter.

http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/pyonz5d0lq/econTabReport.pdf

As of 21 Aug 2018, 59% of Republicans view Trump very favorably, Question 48A,

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/iqa9xbuq8j/econTabReport.pdf

In my opinion around 60% of Republicans are your avid Trumpers. If the GOP does lose the house big, fail in the senate to gain any seats, Trump get blamed, a few of that 60% could waver. But those who may move from somewhat support or view Trump somewhat favorable could very well change categories to somewhat unfavorable or very unfavorable if they view Trump as the cause. He will be the cause, it all depends on whom or what the Republicans attached the blame.

After the midterms, I would guess you will see a lot more Republicans in Washington showing their independence from Trump. Right now most Republican elected officials are scared to death of Trump. Either get his backing, kowtow to him or be primaried out. That could change if the midterms go as I envision them to go as of today.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
The praising McCain's "brand of politics" (bipartisan efforts?) while supporting a resist, resist resist demorat party leadership position is also amusing. Upping the alleged percentage of "deplorables" among the republicant base from 50% to 90% is not exactly in line with McCain's "brand of politics" either. IMHO, much of the praise now (when it no longer matters?) for McCain is simply because McCain shared a dislike for Trump and not for any agreement with McCain's policy positions or "brand of politics".
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McCain is the only republican I ever voted for.

Campaign finance reform.

I liked him as a person as well.
 
Felis Leo said:
It certainly seems to support my working theory of how so many people (though not all) on the political left presently think and operate: to them, the only good conservative or Republican worthy of praise is a dead conservative or Republican.

A decade ago during the last presidential race, McCain was a stumbling, bloodthirsty dotard, like some kind of aged Ivan the Terrible, who was going to get the United States embroiled in a series of unending wars, then go non compos mentis, and leave the White House in the hands of an even more crazed Sarah Palin. Now that he has passed, he is lionized as a bipartisan peacemaker, a principled politician, and an overall good-spirited decent man. I'm glad to hear this is what so many people on the political left and in the media truly thought of him. I wish they had said these things more loudly during the 2008 presidential election.
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I might have voted for him sans Palin.

I did before.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Funny how many Republicans seem to think opposing someone due to their attacks on(along with many other groups) POWs makes you “petty”.

But then again, Trump has a cult of personality that makes Enver Hoxha’s look mild in comparison.
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No, that is personal. Regardless of party, it shows what a vindictive little man John really was.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Hmm... do you see many demorats in congress (or running for POTUS) trying to reach accross the aisle or defending their opposition candidates? It is one thing to say that you support certain behavior in others but quite another to actually practice that behavior yourself. I certainly agree that McCain was a much better leader, human being and politician than Trump is but also note that you clipped much of my post to avoid addressing those other points.
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One of Obama's failing was trying to be reasonable. Reach across the aisle.

And his biggest stupid, starting at the middle position on things.

Which just resulted in ending further right.
 
Felis Leo said:
It certainly seems to support my working theory of how so many people (though not all) on the political left presently think and operate: to them, the only good conservative or Republican worthy of praise is a dead conservative or Republican.

A decade ago during the last presidential race, McCain was a stumbling, bloodthirsty dotard, like some kind of aged Ivan the Terrible, who was going to get the United States embroiled in a series of unending wars, then go non compos mentis, and leave the White House in the hands of an even more crazed Sarah Palin. Now that he has passed, he is lionized as a bipartisan peacemaker, a principled politician, and an overall good-spirited decent man. I'm glad to hear this is what so many people on the political left and in the media truly thought of him. I wish they had said these things more loudly during the 2008 presidential election.
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It does not support your working theory, and your theory is wrong...I know the Trumpettes love their conspiracy theories, but how about we talk about facts and less about theories...Fact is McCain saw his party move in a very dangerous direction and did not agree with it. And in the past couple of years he worked more than ever to squash the tribalism that Trump and his supporters enable. He did this by trying to work on bi-partisan solutions. What he did in 2008 or what was said about him in 2008 is absolutely irrelevant.
 
What if...? said:
One of Obama's failing was trying to be reasonable. Reach across the aisle.

And his biggest stupid, starting at the middle position on things.

Which just resulted in ending further right.
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This is not Obama's failing...This is the GOP lead congress failing...Their strategy of "NO" for eight straight years took their party further right and even today the Presidency nor the GOP congress is willing to compromise on anything. Democrats in congress are put in a position where they have no option but to resist such a partisan swamp that is in Washington at the moment.
 
What if...? said:
One of Obama's failing was trying to be reasonable. Reach across the aisle.

And his biggest stupid, starting at the middle position on things.

Which just resulted in ending further right.
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I think the right was already going rabid. Do you remember the lady at the height of his campaign who started saying that Obama is a Muslim, and McCain interrupted her and said that he thought Obama was a Muslim, and he stopped her? That was the beginning inklings of the crazy starting to come out. But I think if there was one cardinal sin that McCain committed, it was nominating Sarah Palin as VP candidate. It really gave oxygen to the rightwing crazy we have been seeing since, starting with the Tea Party. They were ready to jerk right and be completely uncompromising. I just think Obama didn't see it right away, and came in with all these grand visions of compromising and reasonable discourse with the opposing party to get things done for the country. He missed the dilated pupils and froth coming out of the mouth until way after it was too late.

Now it's up to the American people to put down this completely rabid animal known as today's GOP. It has torn its leash and dangerously snapping at everyone and everything in site. There is no other medical treatment that can be offered. It is a danger to itself and everyone around it, and just needs to be put out of its misery.
 
Finch said:
It does not support your working theory, and your theory is wrong...I know the Trumpettes love their conspiracy theories, but how about we talk about facts and less about theories...Fact is McCain saw his party move in a very dangerous direction and did not agree with it. And in the past couple of years he worked more than ever to squash the tribalism that Trump and his supporters enable.
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Yes. Let us talk about facts. The fact is, in 2008 many left-leaning pundits and media groups (which is most of them in the United States with the notable exception of Fox News) caricatured John McCain as a senile warmonger with a crazy Alaskan conservative harpy waiting in the wings to step into the Oval Office. And now many of the same media organizations and persons that participated in the denigration of his character are singing his praises. Am I wrong in my overall characterization, and if so, how am I wrong?

Finch said:
He did this by trying to work on bi-partisan solutions. What he did in 2008 or what was said about him in 2008 is absolutely irrelevant.
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Correction. It is irrelevant to you. The mocking characterizations of him are absolutely salient, in that the media overall seemed to have had a "newfound" respect for John McCain only when (1) he came out against Trump and (2) now that he is dead and cannot push any form of conservative policy anymore.

And not knowing your particular political persuasion Finch, I must ask you two questions: First, which Republican or conservative politicians do you presently respect and give open plaudits to, and, second, did you have open respect for them before Trump came onto the political scene and won the presidency?
 
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JustHanging said:
The sad part was watching how easily this was accomplished. Attack Muslims. Attack Latinos. Blame everyone else and the bogeyman for the economic problems.

And come up with three word slogans. Lots and lots of three word slogans. Why expect people to learn the issues when you can train them to repeat a three word slogan?
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All of trumps "hits" were focus grouped by bannon long before trump even ran. The wall, deep state, fake news, the whole lot.

Including, oddly enough, how republicans felt about Putin.

The more I look, the more it looks like Bannon. What he advocates for, the methods he uses, Cambridge analytica, its all what the Russians are accused of.

Time will tell. All I have is a BUNCH of circumstantial evidence.

But I believe the trump tower meeting may HAVE been a setup.

By Bannon. For kompromat to be used to control trump.
 
Nice article by an AP reporter in the SF Chronicle today, with a picture of a monument to Sen McCain near Hanoi's True Bach lake where McCain landed.
 
Mycroft said:
I don't think I've ever said becoming a prisoner of war is a failing. (one iguanaman lie dismissed...check)

The topic of this thread...and, of my post...is McCain. Not Trump. (one iguanaman deflection dismissed...check)
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McCain is an American hero, part of a dying breed that puts country first. Trump is a national; disgrace in contrast. Good going.
 
Lovebug said:
No, that is personal. Regardless of party, it shows what a vindictive little man John really was.
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What a vindictive little man McCain was?

I get you Trump supporters are living on another planet from the rest of the world, but really?

There is nothing wrong with opposing a man, especially a man who claimed that avoiding STDs was "his Vietnam" and especially when that man tries to attack POWs because "he likes people who weren't captured".

It's truly pathetic how many Republicans roll over and defend such inexcusable rhetoric.
 
iguanaman said:
McCain is an American hero, part of a dying breed that puts country first. Trump is a national; disgrace in contrast. Good going.
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So...you double down on the deflection. That's sad.

But more importantly, you ignore McCain lying to his own voters. Yes...that's putting "country first", isn't it?
 
Mycroft said:
So...you double down on the deflection. That's sad.

But more importantly, you ignore McCain lying to his own voters. Yes...that's putting "country first", isn't it?
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LOL A Trumpster that doesn't like liars. That is the funniest thing I've heard today.
 
iguanaman said:
LOL A Trumpster that doesn't like liars. That is the funniest thing I've heard today.
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Thank you for admitting that McCain is a liar.
 
ataraxia said:
John McCain's passing is being solemnly honored all over the country. He was known as a great statesman, as someone who put country and lofty ideals and American values above petty partisanship and tribalism. He respected his rivals, because he knew that even if he disagreed with them, that didn't make them bad people or people who deserved to be insulted. At the height of his presidential campaign against Obama, he stopped a woman who was starting to call Obama a Muslim, and saying how she was afraid. He reassured her that although he disagreed with Obama, he was a good man, and she had nothing to worry about. He will be remembered for his great legislative accomplishments and campaigns, such as his bipartisan pushes on immigration policy, or campaign finance legislation, or his crusade to ban the torture of terror suspects. He clashed with Trump on multiple fronts, including his support for free trade as being the best long term trade policy for the US, his support of the free press as the backbone of democracy, his revulsion for Russian strongman Vladimir Putin, his support for NATO, his championing of human rights all over the world, including for those seeking asylum from war-torn and unstable countries around the world, and his belief in a spirit of cooperation and bipartisanship.

"We argue and compete and sometimes even vilify each other in our raucous public debates", McCain wrote in his final farewell address. " But we have always had so much more in common with each other than in disagreement."

But as much as McCain is being honored today by decent Americans all over the country, the war for the soul of the Republican Party has been squarely won by Donald Trump and his brand of petty, relentlessly vindictive, and small-minded tribalism. He has learned that division, fear and hate-mongering, and paranoia are what the base wants. That Republican base is now squarely the party of Donald Trump. Trump's approval rating among registered Republicans now stands at 90%, compared to McCain at 32%.

So although Trump's insulting behavior and rhetoric toward McCain, both during his life and now as he has passed away, draws much disgust among Americans at large, it is unlikely to have much effect among his deplorable base. And it is unlikely we are ever going to see McCain's brand of politics from the GOP again for a very, very long time.

RIP, senator McCain. And thank you for your lifetime of service to our country.
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McCain is a great man now, mainly because you beat him. Back then he was just another bigot to you. He picked Palin, probably the single most hated person by the left in the history of American politics. And to act like he's not at fault for that is to call him a weak person unfit for a high leadership position.

McCain has done some good things, and I didn't dislike him personally, but he was a weak candidate. Trump could definitely be classier, but he is a jackhammer who's addicted to winning and we have a booming economy with no war and consistent peace talks. Ultimately imo, Trump did win and Trump is better for our country.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/oct/14/mccain-palin-obama-racism
https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Veiled-racism-seen-in-new-attacks-on-Obama-3266286.php
 
JustHanging said:
Neither Trump nor McCain won.

The USA lost, again, just like it's been doing for the last 1 1/2 years. Sad to see such a great country go through such a big losing streak.
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Wow! You sound exactly like Hawkeye10, another poster.

I disagree with you. I think the US was on a steep winning streak, up until 1/21/17.
 
iguanaman said:
McCain is an American hero, part of a dying breed that puts country first. Trump is a national; disgrace in contrast. Good going.
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Hero? No.
You are saying it is a definitive when it is nothing more than an opinion. It is clearly an opinion others do not hold.
As a Veteran I am aware that there are many Veterans as well as non-Veterans who do not hold your view, some would likely be more than willing to piss on his grave.
 
SonOfDaedalus said:
No. People praise McCain because:

1. He always tried to reach across the aisle
2. In 2008 he defended his opponent, Obama, when some supporter called him a Muslim.

McCain showed he was an honorable man who refused to stoop low to try and win. Trump is the opposite. Trump has no honor or integrity and will lie and insult everyone.
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Yet when he was actually running as the GOP candidate against Obama, he was vilified. He only is catching praise from the left because he had beef with Trump, full stop. That's as deep as it goes.
 
ataraxia said:
John McCain's passing is being solemnly honored all over the country. He was known as a great statesman, as someone who put country and lofty ideals and American values above petty partisanship and tribalism. He respected his rivals, because he knew that even if he disagreed with them, that didn't make them bad people or people who deserved to be insulted.
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Right...because he totally didn't do such things as insult those who disagreed with him. Like...he never told Rand Paul that he's working for the Russians. Let's get real, when McCain ran as the GOP candidate for President he was constantly attacked and demonized. The only reason he is getting any praise from the left is because he fought with Trump as he was going it. That's it. It's not any more than that.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Hmm... do you see many demorats in congress (or running for POTUS) trying to reach accross the aisle or defending their opposition candidates? It is one thing to say that you support certain behavior in others but quite another to actually practice that behavior yourself. I certainly agree that McCain was a much better leader, human being and politician than Trump is but also note that you clipped much of my post to avoid addressing those other points.
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Could someone who would've gotten us into more wars and killed way more people be considered "much better" than one who doesn't? That bar, right there, is a very high one to get over.
 
JustHanging said:
He did. He's brought nearly the entire nation together to condemn the racist sleazebag Trump.
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Yeah...condemning Trump is so super brave these days...
 
I have to disagree that 45 won. He has single-handedly lost the respect of the world. He has diminished respect for the office he holds. He has no credibility in any statements he makes. He has not put every day Americans first. He has not tried to unite our country. He has spat on our institutions and sown distrust and discord upon them. He has dishonored our country by standing with murderous tyrants.

Sen. McCain, whose politics I mostly disagreed with, went out with honor; something 45 will never have.
 
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