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Income inequality exists, but is it a problem, an existential threat? No.

This isn't discussed much.

There are really two economies in America.

One makes money by providing goods and services.

The other is mostly engaged in rent seeking of some kind. Renting money. Acquiring resources with the sole purpose of denying others access to extract profits. Gaming small investors on Wall St. Etc.

This second group is where most of the money is accreting.

Something like 80% of all new wealth created since the housing crash has been captured by the 1%.

This is the point that I've been making here for weeks yet many posters on this board defend. This country is filled with propaganda defending unearned income, and we're all worse off for it.
 
Bernie Sanders was a guest on Steven Colbert's show last week.He claimed 3 families in America owned 1/2 of all of the wealth in America.I doubt he intentionally lied,if he lied at all,or simply didn't have his facts straight..If true,That,in and of itself,was one of the top reasons for the Great Depression.


Greetings, Logician Man. :2wave:

I read a study a while back that the Walton family (Walmart) is one of the wealthiest in this country. If true, I'm curious who the other two might be that Bernie is considering as the top three?
 
Greetings, Logician Man. :2wave:

I read a study a while back that the Walton family (Walmart) is one of the wealthiest in this country. If true, I'm curious who the other two might be that Bernie is considering as the top three?

HI pol...I was wondering the same thing.Maybe someone will see this and enlighten us..meanwhile I'll do a quick google search.If I find anything of value ,I'll get with ya.
 
Greetings, Logician Man. :2wave:

I read a study a while back that the Walton family (Walmart) is one of the wealthiest in this country. If true, I'm curious who the other two might be that Bernie is considering as the top three?

one link states Waltons,Kochs,and Mars ( candy bars ) in that order...not really sure if that is up to date or not.
 
That chart is a little skewed by not separating out the .1%.

The average at the top quintile looks a LOT different if you do.

Most if the top fifth don't make 181,000. Their income tracks from the quintile below until you get to a fraction of a percent. Where the income level skyrockets.


And a lot of them are in the "extractive" economy.

This isn't discussed much.

There are really two economies in America.

One makes money by providing goods and services.

The other is mostly engaged in rent seeking of some kind. Renting money. Acquiring resources with the sole purpose of denying others access to extract profits. Gaming small investors on Wall St. Etc.

This second group is where most of the money is accreting.

Something like 80% of all new wealth created since the housing crash has been captured by the 1%.

Red:
  1. Please reconcile your "red" comments with the data found in the chart below (or one like it) and the linked-to charts.
Perhaps you'd like to cite data from your own sources (for whatever reason). I won't mind that you do so long as you put some quantifiable and objective "teeth" to your "red" remarks. With that as a framework, there may then be something to discuss.
 
Greetings, Logician Man. :2wave:

I read a study a while back that the Walton family (Walmart) is one of the wealthiest in this country. If true, I'm curious who the other two might be that Bernie is considering as the top three?

First lets admit that Sanders was talking out of his a**. The combined Walton family is worth LESS than the combined wealth of Bezos and Zuckerberg.

Might also want to understand that the bulk of the wealth of both of those folks and people like Gates, Buffett etc have not been subject to federal income tax. Thus changing the tax rates would not impact the income inequality that comes from them.
 
Red:
  1. Please reconcile your "red" comments with the data found in the chart below (or one like it) and the linked-to charts.
Perhaps you'd like to cite data from your own sources (for whatever reason). I won't mind that you do so long as you put some quantifiable and objective "teeth" to your "red" remarks. With that as a framework, there may then be something to discuss.

Maybe I didn't say it well, but this is what I was referring to:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAOegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw3JyEy4NoHjB7t21YcWo7dT
 
That chart is a little skewed by not separating out the .1%.

The average at the top quintile looks a LOT different if you do.

Most if the top fifth don't make 181,000. Their income tracks from the quintile below until you get to a fraction of a percent. Where the income level skyrockets.

And a lot of them are in the "extractive" economy.

This isn't discussed much.

There are really two economies in America.

One makes money by providing goods and services.

The other is mostly engaged in rent seeking of some kind. Renting money. Acquiring resources with the sole purpose of denying others access to extract profits. Gaming small investors on Wall St. Etc.

This second group is where most of the money is accreting.

Something like 80% of all new wealth created since the housing crash has been captured by the 1%.

Only one of my customers (I am a self-employed handyman) is in the uber rich category and I charge him no more for my work than I do anyone else yet he feels compelled to overpay - usually by 'rounding' up to the next $100 level from my bill.
 
Only one of my customers (I am a self-employed handyman) is in the uber rich category and I charge him no more for my work than I do anyone else yet he feels compelled to overpay - usually by 'rounding' up to the next $100 level from my bill.
Therefore what? This doesn't justify rent seeking as a means of living.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
 
Therefore what? This doesn't justify rent seeking as a means of living.

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

As far as I know he is not into 'rent seeking' and is making his fortune from offshore oil/gas production.
 
As far as I know he is not into 'rent seeking' and is making his fortune from offshore oil/gas production.
Does he manage the businesses? Or is he just collecting dividends, interest, capital gains, etc.?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
 
Off Topic:
Greetings, Logician Man. :2wave:

I read a study a while back that the Walton family (Walmart) is one of the wealthiest in this country. If true, I'm curious who the other two might be that Bernie is considering as the top three?

First lets admit that Sanders was talking out of his a**. The combined Walton family is worth LESS than the combined wealth of Bezos and Zuckerberg.

Might also want to understand that the bulk of the wealth of both of those folks and people like Gates, Buffett etc have not been subject to federal income tax. Thus changing the tax rates would not impact the income inequality that comes from them.
Washunut, you really need to refrain from saying things whereof their veracity derives only from whatever BS you can abduct.

Per Polgara, Sanders said the "Walton family is one of the wealthiest in" the US, and your response was to assert that Sanders was "talking out of his ass."​


  1. [*=1]You could not be more wrong. Sanders' remark about the Walton family's wealth is spot on.
    [*=1]Regardless of whether the Walton family is the wealthiest family in the US, with it's ~$163B in net worth, it is without question one of the wealthiest. That would be so even if the Walton family were were worth but $10 billion for there are only about 600-700 billionaires in the U.S. and something just under 3000 billionaires in the whole world.

So just who was "talking out of his ass?" You! You didn't have to make a declarative remark without first confirming its veracity, yet that is precisely you did.​
 
Does he manage the businesses? Or is he just collecting dividends, interest, capital gains, etc.?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

Management and scientific/geological background.
 
Management and scientific/geological background.
They're paid well, but not exorbitantly. What gives?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.
 
They're paid well, but not exorbitantly. What gives?

Sent from my HTC phone. Instaurare omnia in Christo.

I really don't know how much of his wealth (he also owns at least part of several farms/ranches) was recently acquired and how much has been in the family for a while (at least one of his ranch properties has been but he built a very nice new home on it).
 
Is IE itself a problem?
Yup.


If you are one of the above individuals, what matters?
For most people, what matters is relative status and positioning. If you perceive yourself as not doing as well as the people in your immediate social circle, you're likely to be less satisfied.

However, that's not relevant to the problem of income inequality. Americans are surprisingly tolerant of the ultra-wealthy, as shown by the fascination with crap like the Kardashians. Anyway, you could have a circle of 20 people, all earning the same exact income, and you'd still have misperceptions where everyone thinks everyone else is doing better.

The biggest issues with IE in the US at this time are:
• Top earners are reaping all the benefits from improved productivity
• Top earners (especially rentiers) are using this to leverage further gains and capture control of the political process
• This monopolization results in squeezing everyone else, which makes their lives far less secure, as well as negatively impacts growth

Unfortunately, reviewing Rawls and Nozick and Bentham is... a bit beyond the character limit. Anyway...


It's high time folks stop griping about IE and start griping about and solving the problems that give rise to IE. The fact that someone makes more money than you isn't the problem. The fact that you don't make enough is the problem. Our society needs to find ways, given the way the capitalist market works, to give people who lack skills that don't command a "sustaining" wage the skills the market demands to the extent that it pays those people a "sustaining" wage.
Unfortunately, that's not going to do it. Certainly not in isolation.

Again, the economics are quite clear: Anyone who is not in the top echelons -- top executives, hedge funders, inheritors, rentiers -- is getting screwed. They're capturing not just the income gains, but also most of the tax cuts.

The middle class in the US is getting squeezed out of existence. Professions that require even an undergraduate education saddle students with crushing debts. Law, once a solid ticket to the upper middle class, is now overwhelmed with grads who are increasingly crowding each other out, while entry-level slots are increasingly automated out of existence. Programming gets outsourced. Teaching, once a decent profession, barely pays above poverty levels. Journalism is dead. Accountants, architects, academics, nurses, mid-level management, sales... all on the ropes.

I don't know the solution, but I know that in most respects, the US is repeatedly making the wrong moves.

We need to increase taxes on higher income earners, corporations and estates. We've done the opposite in almost every administration since Reagan.

A second is to develop an actual working safety net. Again, we're doing the opposite.

A third option is to strengthen unions. That's not happening.

Raising minimum wages and increasing access to health insurance helps. But not much, and obviously both trigger massive political wars.

Last but not least, one aspect of the increase in income inequality probably can't be fixed: Assortative mating. As women have increasingly entered the workforce, including in higher-paying professions, people have increasingly wanted to marry someone who is more their equal, including (if not primarily) in terms of income. The days of the sole male breadwinner (which is a recent aberration; women have worked for most of human history) are gone, and not coming back. This is compounded by the rise of the single mother. Both of these pressures result in greater household income inequality.
 
If you knew Trump better you would know that he did not think that he was ripping people off, he thought that he was giving people the opportunity to learn from him, and if they did and if they worked hard then they could be successful like him.

As for keeping blacks out of his properties during the 1970's pretty much everyone with a brain was doing that, it was an economic necessity, because the city was melting down and the blacks were driving it. The disintegration of the black family and the black community was carrying over and infecting the entire city. Nixon's efforts to get corporate America to hire and featherbed mostly unqualified blacks in the effort to head off further rioting of the blacks helped, but it did not prevent the problems of 1970's NYC social breakdown.

I imagine the segregationists in the south would have used the same absurd logic. If blacks had the money and met whatever other requirements, they had the right to the housing. Law and order. End of story.
 
I imagine the segregationists in the south would have used the same absurd logic. If blacks had the money and met whatever other requirements, they had the right to the housing. Law and order. End of story.

The logic was that the more blacks they had the more chances of problems, problems diminish property values, and property value was almost all of their wealth so that would be a very bad thing to have happen .

I cant speak to the logic you dont see here, but it is what happened, this was the motivation.
 
Off Topic:

Washunut, you really need to refrain from saying things whereof their veracity derives only from whatever BS you can abduct.

Per Polgara, Sanders said the "Walton family is one of the wealthiest in" the US, and your response was to assert that Sanders was "talking out of his ass."​


  1. [*=1]You could not be more wrong. Sanders' remark about the Walton family's wealth is spot on.
    [*=1]Regardless of whether the Walton family is the wealthiest family in the US, with it's ~$163B in net worth, it is without question one of the wealthiest. That would be so even if the Walton family were were worth but $10 billion for there are only about 600-700 billionaires in the U.S. and something just under 3000 billionaires in the whole world.

So just who was "talking out of his ass?" You! You didn't have to make a declarative remark without first confirming its veracity, yet that is precisely you did.​

Sanders said that 3 families controlled half the wealth of America per the post we referred to. Would you prefer I call Sanders a liar? I wish this site could have different tiers of members by IQ so I would not have to deal with people like you.

I did not say polgara said anything wrong. In fact if the point was is the Walton family very rich I would agree. But you and Sanders seem to be caught in hyperbole.

Partisanship is expected on this site but we could use some better reading comprehension.
 
Off Topic:


What we have not seen from the idle rich?

What we have not seen in a long time is a segment of society that can be called idly rich. Quite literally, damn near nobody doesn't work.
-- ‘Rich America’ is not the ‘idle rich,’ but rather a working America, an educated America and a married America

Income2012.jpg


That chart is a little skewed by not separating out the .1%.

The average at the top quintile looks a LOT different if you do.

Most if the top fifth don't make 181,000. Their income tracks from the quintile below until you get to a fraction of a percent. Where the income level skyrockets.


Red:
  1. Please reconcile your "red" comments with the data found in the chart below (or one like it) and the linked-to charts.
Perhaps you'd like to cite data from your own sources (for whatever reason). I won't mind that you do so long as you put some quantifiable and objective "teeth" to your "red" remarks. With that as a framework, there may then be something to discuss.

Maybe I didn't say it well, but this is what I was referring to: Income Inequality in the United States

Red:
The content at the site to which you linked contravenes your "red" remarks' gravamen.

You'll note that that blue-bordered chart ("my" chart) to which I linked and that you said skews things so as to make the second highest income quartile appear better off than is so is from 2012. The article you referenced is from 2013, and I take no issue with the dates. That article contains the following chart.

US-before-tax-income-1-300x166.png

I don't know what your notion of "tracking with" is, but mine isn't times-1.47, then times 1.48, then times 2.55, which is the incremental jump from the third to the fourth to the fifth quintile.

There's an obvious question deriving from comparing the data in the 2012 and 2013 depictions:
  • Is the information comparable? One must ask that question because the figures for the top quintile differ by ~$85K. That is why I asked you to reconcile your figures with mine.
I've done the reconciliation for myself (it took all of five minutes) because your reply to me didn't, so now I know what accounts for the difference between your chart's figures and mine.[SUP]1[/SUP] One thing that comports with "your" chart is what Pew found a few years back: the middle class has, for the most part, been moving into the upper income quintile.

So, to bring this discussion back to part of the thread's topic -- whether income inequality is or is not itself a problem -- whether one uses "your" chart or "mine," the question becomes is ~$180K/year or ~$265K/year enough to sustain oneself? The answer is clearly, "yes." Because the answer is "yes," is has such an earner any basis for complaining that someone else earns more income? No.



Notes:
  1. No, I'm not going to present the reconciliation because performing it is what you should have done before throwing that thing in my face, so to speak, to challenge a portion of the legitimacy of the figures I presented. I'm not here to toss data around (or as they say in the car business "kick tires") and do anyone's else's data analysis for them, most especially not when (1) the subject matter is off-topic and (2) when I can tell from one's responses that one has not read the content I provided or linked-to that supports my position.

    You might ask how I can tell that one hasn't read "this or that" content. It's simple: if one's remarks don't directly refute or invalidate what are in fact the strongest supports of my argument, one's remarks cannot possibly contravene my case. Refuting a weak point in another's argument is tantamount to chipping away the excess rock around a vein of gold.
 
The logic was that the more blacks they had the more chances of problems, problems diminish property values, and property value was almost all of their wealth so that would be a very bad thing to have happen .

I cant speak to the logic you dont see here, but it is what happened, this was the motivation.

Would mulattos have been ok, presumably bringing only half the problems full blooded blacks might? How about rich black NBA players, who would presumably behave themselves, tho likely to sue when they bumped their heads on doorways? Al Jolson imitators? They did studies to support their logic and presented them to court?

(Of course, by their logic, if they rented to Sicilians they would have crime problems, if Mexicans, all that smelly food, Irish, whiskey bottles littering the hallways, etc.)
 
Would mulattos have been ok, presumably bringing only half the problems full blooded blacks might? How about rich black NBA players, who would presumably behave themselves, tho likely to sue when they bumped their heads on doorways? Al Jolson imitators? They did studies to support their logic and presented them to court?

(Of course, by their logic, if they rented to Sicilians they would have crime problems, if Mexicans, all that smelly food, Irish, whiskey bottles littering the hallways, etc.)

If you come up with something to say poke me, I have done more teaching than I wanted tonight already.
 
Yup.



For most people, what matters is relative status and positioning. If you perceive yourself as not doing as well as the people in your immediate social circle, you're likely to be less satisfied.

However, that's not relevant to the problem of income inequality. Americans are surprisingly tolerant of the ultra-wealthy, as shown by the fascination with crap like the Kardashians. Anyway, you could have a circle of 20 people, all earning the same exact income, and you'd still have misperceptions where everyone thinks everyone else is doing better.

The biggest issues with IE in the US at this time are:
• Top earners are reaping all the benefits from improved productivity
• Top earners (especially rentiers) are using this to leverage further gains and capture control of the political process
• This monopolization results in squeezing everyone else, which makes their lives far less secure, as well as negatively impacts growth

Unfortunately, reviewing Rawls and Nozick and Bentham is... a bit beyond the character limit. Anyway...



Unfortunately, that's not going to do it. Certainly not in isolation.

Again, the economics are quite clear: Anyone who is not in the top echelons -- top executives, hedge funders, inheritors, rentiers -- is getting screwed. They're capturing not just the income gains, but also most of the tax cuts.

The middle class in the US is getting squeezed out of existence. Professions that require even an undergraduate education saddle students with crushing debts. Law, once a solid ticket to the upper middle class, is now overwhelmed with grads who are increasingly crowding each other out, while entry-level slots are increasingly automated out of existence. Programming gets outsourced. Teaching, once a decent profession, barely pays above poverty levels. Journalism is dead. Accountants, architects, academics, nurses, mid-level management, sales... all on the ropes.

I don't know the solution, but I know that in most respects, the US is repeatedly making the wrong moves.

We need to increase taxes on higher income earners, corporations and estates. We've done the opposite in almost every administration since Reagan.

A second is to develop an actual working safety net. Again, we're doing the opposite.

A third option is to strengthen unions. That's not happening.

Raising minimum wages and increasing access to health insurance helps. But not much, and obviously both trigger massive political wars.

Last but not least, one aspect of the increase in income inequality probably can't be fixed: Assortative mating. As women have increasingly entered the workforce, including in higher-paying professions, people have increasingly wanted to marry someone who is more their equal, including (if not primarily) in terms of income. The days of the sole male breadwinner (which is a recent aberration; women have worked for most of human history) are gone, and not coming back. This is compounded by the rise of the single mother. Both of these pressures result in greater household income inequality.

I will reply again to your post. For now, however and due to the character limit, let me just say, "thank you" for actually replying to the actual thread topic. Yours is one of three among the first 40 I've read that does so, and yours is far and away the most trenchant and thoughtful.
 
Economic power is related to wealth, not income. When wealth is concentrated, you don't have to pay your employees more because there's no one to compete with you to force you to do it.
Please stop responding to my posts. You just go from saying one stupid/conflationary thing to the next.

32002062.jpg
 
Only one of my customers (I am a self-employed handyman) is in the uber rich category and I charge him no more for my work than I do anyone else yet he feels compelled to overpay - usually by 'rounding' up to the next $100 level from my bill.

I don't know whether you offered the "red" anecdote to illustrate the central thesis of my OP, but your remark does so poignantly. Kudos and TY. I wouldn't have conjured that portrayal of the thesis, but I am thrilled that you did. I just hope that others see the connection.
 
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