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Good grief, my saying I don't read just one source, is proof that I only read one source?
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Parkland Shooting: just when you thought the level of failure couldn't get any deeper.
- Thread starter Harshaw
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Wait, it was not the expectation of the school to have had different effect on the student? Seriously? What is this thread all about then?
You are expressing the expectation that the schools programs were making a difference, and when "cut off" the result was his getting a gun and killing innocents.
First off, he dropped out, he cut himself off. Second, he was an adult under Florida law, the school could not force him to attend ANY school, it was his choice to leave.
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When you hadnt before responding in the thread, as seemed the case here.
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They stopped enabling him to participate in programs that counselors were recommending/were available to him.
And I'm not referring to any school accountability after he left :doh Unless of course they had information come to their attention that could have been reported but I'm not aware of that.
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Whut?
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No, after his last episode, where he threatened other students and to kill himself, he was given options for his last year, he refused and left.
I did not say you were, duh
?????
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Cruz stopped going to treatments with no explanation. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.
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After years. It's sad that the school could not/did not do more to help him, or to find him help. I dont place all the blame on them at all...but IMO if they had been more invested in helping him...and I get that he was difficult...that's what those programs are supposed to deal with...they very well could have avoided the shooting.
It's Monday Morning Quarterbacking now, but you can see areas where the school, the system, the FBI, and LE didnt follow thru. We should learn from that.
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I don't disagree with what you stated. For me it all begins at home with his birth parents. Hopefully we can look at the past and improve how people are dealt with. There is also only so much the "system" can do for someone when they do not want help.
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So "for years" he was being helped, by your own admission....and then...."its sad they did not do MORE"....and finally..."they could have avoided the shooting"....not the student, the SCHOOL, which had been helping him "for years". You have gone back to totally blaming the school in spite of the fact that you admit they were helping him for years.
Unbelievable.
Indeed, you are "Monday morning QBing", the irony!
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Yes I am MMQBing. That's what wrote :doh I can admit that I am examining the information released and drawing conclusions. And I never said they didnt help him but in their own words and information released, they did not make referrals they could have. That's just one example.
You seem to be the kind of person that has to always 'look right' on the Internet. I dont share that need, I'm a pretty secure person. You can go back and forth over whether they did enough. I dont believe they did. ANd the discussion is about IF they did so it's not like your conclusions are 'right.' There's no current consensus and investigation is not over. If you need to be 'right' to sleep at night, maybe a discussion forum isnt for you?
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*hiccup!*
Slow connection
Slow connection
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Conclusions based on speculation about what you wish would have happened. You continue to blame the school after yesterday saying:
"Nobody accused the school of not 'fixing' him."
That is precisely the underlying premise of M-M-QBing, arguing as to why the school failed.
They only thing they did not offer was for him to stay at the school where he had just threatened other students AND threatened to kill himself, instead they offered for him to go back to the special school where he had had better results in the past.
Yeah, I tend to not want to look wrong, or make opaque, fuzzy or contradictory claims.....like you have throughout this debate.
Fine, you enjoy being all, and more, of the above.
False, totally false.
The premise of the thread was that the school "did nothing". They apparently "did enough" while he was attending, before he made the decision to drop out, to not have him shoot a bunch of people at the school.
See above, it was only after he dropped out, a YEAR after he dropped out, that he went on his murderous rampage.
Yes there is.
It is as far as his case is concerned, he is on trial.
LOL...a question...it seems you are unsure, I can just hear that inflection...lol.
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Only you know if you can sleep at night :roll: And only you know how much your Internet presence influences your self-esteem...so of course I'm unsure. I was just drawing some conclusions from what I've read here.
You've once again offered nothing new.
And have demonstrated an inability to connect the dots...as *I* clearly wrote previously that returning to the scene of a failure or resentment much later...a year, several years...is common in the pattern of these types of shooters. And it goes back to the place where *they believe* their downward spiral started. So, continually pointing out that he'd left the school a year before kinda shows you're not really assimilating information well. Just one example.
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Cut the hypocritical crap about "being right", you are on a debate forum, if you are not here to present what you believe to be true and correct, then you are a troll.
I never said it was new, and your avoiding the points is getting old.
Uh, no, the point was that if the school "failed", then he would have been more likely to have committed this crime while he was in school, where as he didn't. The reality is that a year after not getting help, he committed this mass murder. That is a fact your argument about the school "failing him" cannot overcome.
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Still wrong and I've written it out for you twice now.
And *again*...if it were cut and dried that the school is not accountable at all, we would not have had that article, this thread, this discussion, there would not be an ongoing investigation and a possible law suit :doh
It''s boring repeating things for you. Please try harder to comprehend before writing.
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What lawsuit are you talking about? This was a report by a consultant of the Tallahassee charter schools. If you want to argue that the adult student who dropped out and 14 months later committed mass murder was not responsible, that somehow the school was responsible, go right ahead. You would then have to argue that your imaginary business had provided care for an employee via insurance would still be responsible after the employee quit 14 months prior. Further, I have no idea what mechanism you expect would be used, truancy could not be applied, and the local LE did not follow through with involuntary commitment:
On the day an 11th grader named Nikolas Cruz told another student that he had a gun at home and was thinking of using it, two guidance counselors and a sheriff’s deputy at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., concluded that he should be forcibly committed for psychiatric evaluation, according to mental health records obtained on Sunday by The New York Times.
An involuntary commitment of that kind, under the authority of a Florida state law known as the Baker Act, could have kept Mr. Cruz from passing a background check required to buy a firearm.
....
The revelation that school officials considered trying to commit Mr. Cruz under the Baker Act in 2016 appeared to be another in a string of missed opportunities to deal with the troubled young man. He went on to commit one of the deadliest school massacres in American history last month, killing 17 people and wounding 17 more using a gun he bought legally.
..
The records are from Henderson Behavioral Health, a local clinic that school officials called for help dealing with Mr. Cruz. The clinic sent a mobile assistance team to Stoneman Douglas High on Sept. 28, 2016, the records show, because Mr. Cruz had made threats and exhibited disturbing behavior following a breakup with a girlfriend. Mr. Cruz was also said to be upset that his mother, Lynda Cruz, would not let him get an identification card required to buy a gun. He wrote “kill” in a notebook in anger over her refusal, he told a counselor.
Mr. Cruz denied telling another student that he wanted to use a gun or that he had ingested gasoline, the documents say. He also said he would not hurt his mother.
..........
The clinician who wrote the Sept. 28 report concluded that Mr. Cruz “did not meet criteria for further assessment.” The sheriff’s deputy at the school, Scot Peterson, told a clinician that he wanted to initiate a Baker Act request against Mr. Cruz anyway, the records show, and two school counselors agreed. Under the law, he could have been held for at least three days of evaluation.
Deputy Peterson also said he would search Mr. Cruz’s home for a gun. And the Florida Department of Children and Families was called in to investigate.
But while the sheriff’s office did visit the Cruz home, Deputy Peterson apparently changed his mind about the commitment request the next day. One of the guidance counselors told the Henderson clinic that the deputy had decided Mr. Cruz did not fit the criteria for involuntary commitment. Clinicians had repeatedly concluded that the Baker Act would not justify committing Mr. Cruz because he denied having an intent or a plan to hurt himself or others.
....
Nikolas Cruz moved to Stoneman Douglas High full time for his junior year, but he started having trouble almost immediately. According to the records, on Sept. 29, 2016, the day after the Henderson team was called to the school, a clinician visited the Cruz home in Parkland and went over Mr. Cruz’s comments about guns. Ms. Cruz responded that she did not worry about her son’s use of firearms.
“I’m not concerned and I’m not afraid,” she told the clinician, the Henderson records say. “My son has pellet guns, and he’s always respected the rules of where they can and can’t be used.”
Unable or unwilling to try to forcibly commit Mr. Cruz, the school drafted a safety plan that prohibited him from bringing a backpack to school. He was also barred from practicing shooting skills with the Junior R.O.T.C. organization at the school, which he had joined.
In November 2016, Mr. Cruz refused any more special education assistance in school, as was his right since he had turned 18, and his mother agreed, according to Robert W. Runcie, superintendent of the Broward County Public Schools. Mr. Cruz’s behavior deteriorated over the following months until Feb. 8, 2017, when he was transferred to an alternative learning center.
Three days later, Mr. Cruz purchased the AR-15 rifle.
An involuntary commitment of that kind, under the authority of a Florida state law known as the Baker Act, could have kept Mr. Cruz from passing a background check required to buy a firearm.
....
The revelation that school officials considered trying to commit Mr. Cruz under the Baker Act in 2016 appeared to be another in a string of missed opportunities to deal with the troubled young man. He went on to commit one of the deadliest school massacres in American history last month, killing 17 people and wounding 17 more using a gun he bought legally.
..
The records are from Henderson Behavioral Health, a local clinic that school officials called for help dealing with Mr. Cruz. The clinic sent a mobile assistance team to Stoneman Douglas High on Sept. 28, 2016, the records show, because Mr. Cruz had made threats and exhibited disturbing behavior following a breakup with a girlfriend. Mr. Cruz was also said to be upset that his mother, Lynda Cruz, would not let him get an identification card required to buy a gun. He wrote “kill” in a notebook in anger over her refusal, he told a counselor.
Mr. Cruz denied telling another student that he wanted to use a gun or that he had ingested gasoline, the documents say. He also said he would not hurt his mother.
..........
The clinician who wrote the Sept. 28 report concluded that Mr. Cruz “did not meet criteria for further assessment.” The sheriff’s deputy at the school, Scot Peterson, told a clinician that he wanted to initiate a Baker Act request against Mr. Cruz anyway, the records show, and two school counselors agreed. Under the law, he could have been held for at least three days of evaluation.
Deputy Peterson also said he would search Mr. Cruz’s home for a gun. And the Florida Department of Children and Families was called in to investigate.
But while the sheriff’s office did visit the Cruz home, Deputy Peterson apparently changed his mind about the commitment request the next day. One of the guidance counselors told the Henderson clinic that the deputy had decided Mr. Cruz did not fit the criteria for involuntary commitment. Clinicians had repeatedly concluded that the Baker Act would not justify committing Mr. Cruz because he denied having an intent or a plan to hurt himself or others.
....
Nikolas Cruz moved to Stoneman Douglas High full time for his junior year, but he started having trouble almost immediately. According to the records, on Sept. 29, 2016, the day after the Henderson team was called to the school, a clinician visited the Cruz home in Parkland and went over Mr. Cruz’s comments about guns. Ms. Cruz responded that she did not worry about her son’s use of firearms.
“I’m not concerned and I’m not afraid,” she told the clinician, the Henderson records say. “My son has pellet guns, and he’s always respected the rules of where they can and can’t be used.”
Unable or unwilling to try to forcibly commit Mr. Cruz, the school drafted a safety plan that prohibited him from bringing a backpack to school. He was also barred from practicing shooting skills with the Junior R.O.T.C. organization at the school, which he had joined.
In November 2016, Mr. Cruz refused any more special education assistance in school, as was his right since he had turned 18, and his mother agreed, according to Robert W. Runcie, superintendent of the Broward County Public Schools. Mr. Cruz’s behavior deteriorated over the following months until Feb. 8, 2017, when he was transferred to an alternative learning center.
Three days later, Mr. Cruz purchased the AR-15 rifle.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/18/us/nikolas-cruz-baker-act.html
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This has nothing to do with perfection. Perfection is doing everything 100% correctly. In this case, the record was 0%. Had the appropriated information been available, Cruz would not have been able to purchase a firearm. However, he should have been under care or otherwise removed from the system long before. He posted on social media that he was going to be a professional school shooter for crap sakes and that was reported. This was total failure from top to bottom. Many people should have lost jobs over this but I don't think a single person did.
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It's disgusting that Runcie and Israel still have jobs, the latter, that POS who dropped the ball dozens of times, had the ballz to let an angry mob rip apart Dana Loesch because the Left's agenda from the jump was to place all the blame squarely on the NRA.
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It's what they do, fail and then blame others. Israel should have been offering profound apologies for his failure rather than cheerleading a throng of NRA haters. He's a disgrace and is unfit to be a crossing guard much less a police chief. Oh, and I bet Dana could kick his ass.:lol:
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I clearly remember his first press briefing after the shooting. I thought it very odd that he personalized the shooting by saying his kids went to that school. Later, I realized that Israel knew at that time who the shooter was, so I bet every single 9-11 call and professional report which he ignored went through his head, and he had to act like a victim. Otherwise, we'd all know that his massive failure to do his job led to the tragedy.
I have zero respect for him and really feel for the citizens of Florida who have to pay his salary and the pension of Barney Fife who stood outside pissing himself while 17 people were inside being shot to death.
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I suppose after the case is adjudicated. Let us know how it turns out.
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So now Betsy BoomBoom Devos who has done absolutely nothing to improve the state of Education in this country, not K-12 and not in even proposing anything that would reshape education in this country to fill in under those seeking higher education and those looking to integrate into a 21st century economy is going to allow Federal funds to be used by schools to buy guns for teachers.
This is just absurd. It is simply a means to use federal money to "buy more guns" as if the military does not already buy enough guns.
This is just absurd. It is simply a means to use federal money to "buy more guns" as if the military does not already buy enough guns.
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The military responds to mass shootings?