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"Treason"

MrWonka said:
No, he attacked us. He attacked our own intelligence community and said that they were all full of **** because he trusted the word of an opposing ruler over the word of every intelligence agency that we have. The evidence that Russia messed with our elections is incontrovertible. Yet, he denied this obvious reality based entirely on Putin saying, "no we didn't."

Trump supported an enemy over our own country. That's treason. That's exactly what it is.
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By definition, Russia is NOT an enemy.

That's where your conspiracy theory jumps the shark.
 
HowardBThiname said:
By definition, Russia is NOT an enemy.

That's where your conspiracy theory jumps the shark.
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Lulz. To rational adults, Russia is clearly an enemy, based on their actions.

If it makes you feel any better, you can consider Russia to be a hostile adversary.
 
Felis Leo said:
Those were policy decisions that strengthened Russia's and Iran's hand in their regions,
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No, they did not. Not remotely. There is no rational basis for believing such silliness.

Felis Leo said:
If making deliberate decisions designed to weaken America's standing in a region while simultaneously strengthening its adversaries, in turn, is what we can define as "common treason" then I call Obama and his coterie common traitors.
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Even if you are foolish enough to believe that Obama's choices were bad(which they weren't), they were not deliberately bad. Trump deliberately threw our intelligence community under the bus. He deliberately undermined their credibility and acted if our direct advisory had more credibility than our own intelligence agencies. Nope. Sorry, not even remotely in the same ballpark.

Felis Leo said:
If you believe I am laboring under a misapprehension these were the correct decisions and Iran or Russia were not in fact strengthened by these decisions and the United States' position was not weakened in these regions, then I welcome your correction.
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We violated the Iran nuclear agreement, not Iran.

Felis Leo said:
Again, those are words. Disturbing words that should not be said before an adversary, but words nonetheless.
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When you are the President of the United States of America your words ****ing matter. He speaks for a nation, and he just called the nation he speaks for a liar and blamed us for problems caused by Putin.

Felis Leo said:
What, if anything, has Russia concretely gained and what has the United States concretely lost?
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Respect. The United States of America is no longer the leader of the free world.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
Lulz. To rational adults, Russia is clearly an enemy, based on their actions.

If it makes you feel any better, you can consider Russia to be a hostile adversary.
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Let's just stick to the legal definition instead of your fantasies.
 
Felis Leo said:
Again, those are words. Disturbing words that should not be said before an adversary, but words nonetheless. Words alone are mere shadows. What is the substance? Have these words translated in the dissolution of NATO and more countries allying with Russia? Has the Russian economy surged and its sphere of influence grown past its immediate borders? Has the Russian Navy and Merchant Marine been expanded and given new trading and military ports? What, if anything, has Russia concretely gained and what has the United States concretely lost?
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I think at a minimum the case can certainly be made that Trump has weakened, and/or is in the process of weakening traditional alliances and trade among western powers broadly and with the US in particular, and in so undermining the economic and political cohesion of the west, has implicitly advanced Russian interests which have always oriented themselves around a divide and conquer strategy with respect to eroding our and European hegemony/power that in turn gives Russia a freer, more influential hand in the long run.

That having been said, I don't think one can convincingly show that he's doing this all at Russia's behest, as opposed to pursuing deeply misguided foreign policy he believes to be advantageous.
 
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HowardBThiname said:
By definition, Russia is NOT an enemy.
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Yes, they are. They attempted to subvert our Democracy. They meddled in our elections. That's something that only an enemy does. While there may be varying degrees of enemy they are without a doubt an adversary now more so than an ally.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Let's just stick to the legal definition instead of your fantasies.
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As long as we are clear on which definition we are talking about, then I for one will use the common term as I see fit.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Let's just stick to the legal definition instead of your fantasies.
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OK, they (Russia) mounted a cyber attack on our government and it's institutions … let's just cut the **** and call them what they are … enemies.
 
StuPedaso said:
OK, they (Russia) mounted a cyber attack on our government and it's institutions … let's just cut the **** and call them what they are … enemies.
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And McConnell supported this attack in September of 2016. Moscow Mitch will go down as the ultimate traitor to our Great Nation.
 
Felis Leo said:
That is a perfectly legitimate feeling to have. I have the same feelings with regard to President Obama vis-a-vis trying to engage in an abortive hard reset of Russian-American relations, scrapping our country's plans for a missile defense shield over Poland and the Czech Republic, and pursuing a policy of empowerment of the Iranian regime through the Iran nuclear deal.

However, I would like to ask: Other than pouring disconcerting amounts of praise upon Putin and scorn and dismissiveness upon our allies and trading partners, what concrete actions has Trump and his administration actually taken that have damaged U.S. interests and benefited Russia?
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Didn't Trump suggest that Russia should be let back into the G7? That surely benefited Russia.

Didn't Trump cancel some of the sanctions authorized against Russia?

resident Trump rejected, for now at least, a fresh round of sanctions set to be imposed against Russia on Monday, a course change that underscored the schism between the president and his national security team.

The president’s ambassador to the United Nations, Nikki R. Haley, had announced on Sunday that the administration would place sanctions on Russian companies found to be assisting Syria’s chemical weapons program. The sanctions were listed on a menu of further government options after an American-led airstrike on Syria, retaliating against a suspected gas attack that killed dozens a week earlier.
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Trump Declines to Add Sanctions Against Russians, Contradicting Haley

Keep in mind that Congress had to FORCE him to enact sanctions. The moment Trump got into office he tried to remove sanctions.

Do you agree your question has been answered?
 
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MrWonka said:
Delusional nuttery. Disagreeing with policy decisions is nothing close to this.


He outright accused our own intelligence community of lying, while trusting the word of our enemy and known liar Putin.
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They've lied about a lot of things (primarily the leadership). Should he have said it in Helsinki? Well, was he asked about it? Did the Russians try to affect out elections; probably about the same as they always do. Seems odd for lefties to bitch about that one aspect after Obama tried ****ing Netanyahu up in his reelection.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
Russia, by definition, is an enemy of the United States.

No one's asking you to like it, but your wishing away of that fact won't change the reality of it.
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Good for the Freedumb Cuckus for standing by their man, agent 0045. (posting while driving is not allowed, as we break in eastern Iowa)

*45 no longer has this mythical support out here from REAL gops. Senators Ernst and Grassley are bloody disasters for their farm folk on tariffs, let alone appeasing trumputin.
 
MrWonka said:
These are not simply disagreements. These are literal crimes being committed by Trump against his own country. These are daily and blatant lies with a clear effort to subvert our Democracy.
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Would you care to cite the code section that defines disagreement, right or wrong, with findings of the FBI and other agencies to constitute treason or any other crime?
 
American said:
They've lied about a lot of things (primarily the leadership). Should he have said it in Helsinki? Well, was he asked about it? Did the Russians try to affect out elections; probably about the same as they always do. Seems odd for lefties to bitch about that one aspect after Obama tried ****ing Netanyahu up in his reelection.
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I see you're still holding on to MAGA, I hope you bought one of those red hats; you're gonna need it by the time tRump is through.
 
Anyone remember back during the 2012 elections at one of the presidential debates Romney said Russia was our biggest geopolitical threat? He was thumbed by every loony lefty in the country, including the Chief Loony BHO. Now those same loonies seem to have a "Russia, Russia, Russia" obsession bordering on maniacal. Why do I get the feeling if BHO had done something similar to Trump's Helsinki performance they'd be nominating him for another Nobel?
 
Cardinal said:
As long as we are clear on which definition we are talking about, then I for one will use the common term as I see fit.
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For sure, but my post was in response to Mr. Wonka who said Trump could be charged with treason based on the fact that Russia is an enemy. Treason depends on a very specific definition of enemy. And, to date, Russia does not fit that definition.
 
MrWonka said:
We are. You are not.
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Don't be an ass. In order for Russia to be an "enemy" and for Trump to be charged with treason -- we'd have to be at war with Russia.

You are free to think of them as your enemy all day long -- that's fine, but in order for treason to be on the table, Russia does not qualify as an enemy.

By the way, very few are actually in agreement with you. You just don't realize that.
 
StuPedaso said:
OK, they (Russia) mounted a cyber attack on our government and it's institutions … let's just cut the **** and call them what they are … enemies.
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Call them whatever you like, that won't change the legal definition as it relates to treason.
 
MrWonka said:
Yes, they are. They attempted to subvert our Democracy. They meddled in our elections. That's something that only an enemy does. While there may be varying degrees of enemy they are without a doubt an adversary now more so than an ally.
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They ARE an adversary, you got that correct. They are not, however, an enemy.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Call them whatever you like, that won't change the legal definition as it relates to treason.
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Fair enough! I hope in tolerance of tRump we don't find out when it's too late what treason is.
 
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