Obama's shameful speech

eohrnberger said:

Opinions differ. Especially if ill-informed by the leftist media, news and otherwise.

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Really? Ok...Well, let's see what your "informed" conservative mind has for us, shall we?

None of the sanctions against Russia have been lifted, and have, in fact, increased.

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Did your favorite right wing fake news outlet NOT inform you that the Trump team tried in vain to have ALL economic sanctions against Russia lifted on inauguration day? Has your trust and reliance in right wing blogs and FauxNews also left you completely ignorant of the FACT that Trump just recently (i.e. this past April) quietly moved unilaterally to remove all sanctions against the very same Russian aluminum oligarch (Oleg Derapaska) who is referenced in some of the Mueller indictments? Please, be candid in your response.

With the US now a world leader in energy production (prevented under previous administrations) and nearing energy independence, it's putting the squeeze on Russia's energy sector as well.

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Oops, sorry again. But the FACT of the matter is that the U.S. was behind China in the energy production rankings throughout the Bush'43 era...and took became the world leader in energy production in 2014. So, yet again, it appears that your FauxNews inspired talking points have made you the fool, huh?

Trump is no Putin fool, not in Putin's pocket, but yet, this is the wishful thinking from the media and political left (same thing really). But by all means, continue to believe whatever it is that you have to believe.

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:lamo As with most right wingers, your arguments tend to fall apart once you share them outside of the right wing echo-chambers where you get them.

Mason66 said:

I wouldn't call Obama a private citizen. He is an ex-President and still represents the country.

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That alone should make him pause before he mouths off like that. He should know how difficult diplomatic relations are. May be he is realizing that, because of his own spineless presidency, he failed miserably when it comes to putting the Russians in their place. Drawing red lines without much follow through doesn't make him look any better than the man he is belittling now.

ultmd said:

Really? Ok...Well, let's see what your "informed" conservative mind has for us, shall we?

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Did your favorite right wing fake news outlet NOT inform you that the Trump team tried in vain to have ALL economic sanctions against Russia lifted on inauguration day? Has your trust and reliance in right wing blogs and FauxNews also left you completely ignorant of the FACT that Trump just recently (i.e. this past April) quietly moved unilaterally to remove all sanctions against the very same Russian aluminum oligarch (Oleg Derapaska) who is referenced in some of the Mueller indictments? Please, be candid in your response.

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Are the sanctions in place or not?

If you look, and you read, you'll see that's all I was saying, and not what you read into it.

Oops, sorry again. But the FACT of the matter is that the U.S. was behind China in the energy production rankings throughout the Bush'43 era...and took became the world leader in energy production in 2014.

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Again, do please read carefully. What did I post? "With the US now a world leader in energy production" That's not specific to this administration, but it does appear that it is this administration might, and probably will, make use of this leverage on Russia, but we'll have to see how things unfold.

So, yet again, it appears that your FauxNews inspired talking points have made you the fool, huh?

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Actually, you are making a fool of yourself with what you are reading in that's not really there.

:lamo As with most right wingers, your arguments tend to fall apart once you share them outside of the right wing echo-chambers where you get them.

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First off, I'm no 'right winger', and secondly Fox news is only part of my daily news uptake. So far you've pretty much missed on most of everything.

As with most left wingers, seemingly nearly impossible to try and have any sort of intelligent discussion with.

Have a nice evening, and good bye.

Bucky said:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/obama-slams-politicians-for-utter-loss-of-shame-2018-07-17

The former president embarrased the legacy of Nelson Mandela by using his pulpit to attack a curent sitting president. My question to Obama and his supporters.... You attack Trump for trying to have a relationship with Russia yet your administration negotiated with terrorists and drafted a terrible deal with a even worse rogue regime in Iran? For shame Barack, for shame.

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1- A good relationship with Russia is certainly a good idea, as Trump said. Ignoring its invasions, murders and interference in our elections is not. 2- If the Iran deal was so terrible, why did the UK, France, China and Russia agree? It potentially might have been the equivalent of Nixon/China, or dare I say it, Trump and North Korea. 3- What terrorists did Obama negotiate with, and why would that be wrong anyway? How different is it from negotiating with Russia, given its terrorist actions?

Seems to me your position is: Obama does it, bad. Trump does it, not so much.

OscarLevant said:

I didn't say Obama "had" to go to congress. Congress had been bitching that "only congress can declare war", so he decided to include them in on the red line policy. They wimped out. They want to bark about it, but when the rubber hits the road, they are chicken hawks, most of them,

No president has exhibited such an obsequious, fawning and servile stance on Putin, who has attacked America in cyberspace, not just on elections, but Nuclear facilities, grid, civil, etc., as well as other democratic nations. He hates democracy, and he is not our friend. Trump slow walked the sanctions, didn't even want them. Trump's behavior to China demonstrated envy to the fact that their president is president for life. Trump envies dictators because they don't have to answer to checks on their power, such inconvenient things like congress, the senate, and the will of the people.

why is Trump keeping secret the minutes of the meeting with Putin at Helsinki?

Ahh, there are no minutes. Trump sat with Putin for over an hour with no aids, no staff, etc.

Why is that? Why is Trump declaring the press as "the enemy of the people"? that's right out of a demagogue's playbook. Why is Trump trying to undermine the Mueller investigation?

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'Cause the Mueller investigation is based on a crap dossier that didn't go through official intelligence channels or vetting by intelligence officers.

Being as one sided and politically active media, telling 1/2 truths is being a 'friend of the nation' ? I hardly think so.

Traitor Trump is definitely a Putin Puppet.

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Believe whatever you have to believe, but I rather doubt that Trump is either of those things. He's a bunch of other non-desirable things, but not those.

There's a lot of hyperbole in your post, clearly, you've been taking notes from the destroy Trump 'news' (political propaganda) media.

Good job. :roll:

Felis Leo said:

We seem to be talking past one another. Again, I have not ignored Apartheid. I keep addressing the problems caused by Apartheid and what they have led to and what they will most likely lead to in the future (i.e., another Zimbabwe-style situation of cyclical vengeance and impoverishment). Am I wrong? Do you see things in South Africa as comparatively rosy and I am just focusing too much on the negative aspects? Do you think things are getting better in South Africa? Or will you not concede that the situation in South Africa is presently very poor and worsening, again, without reference as to who is to blame?

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I think the nation is going through a period of strife, but I do not think that, as you said, it is about to turn into Venezuela in the desert. Remember, the Zulu King is also yelling rather loudly about the proposed land appropriation plan, which rather brings up the point that it seems to be targeted at specific portions of on group or another rather than a blanket racially based program.....at least from my understanding and what I've heard from the one white South African I "know" on the internet.

eohrnberger said:

Rather doubtful that Putin's going to annex another previously iron curtain nation during this administration. The US position on the Crimea was restated and made clear.

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Yes, Trump change the US position - he weakened it:

U.S. government policy refuses to recognize Russia’s annexation of Crimea, deemed illegal under international law. But Trump in recent weeks has left the door open for a reversal, saying only in response to questions on the topic: “We’ll see.”

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Trump shocked officials at the Group of Seven (G-7) meeting in June when he argued that the annexed Crimean peninsula should belong to Russia, because “people there speak Russian.” The assertion sharply contradicted longstanding U.S. and transatlantic policy of not recognizing the seizure of sovereign territory by force.

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eohrnberger said:

None of the sanctions against Russia have been lifted, and have, in fact, increased.

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Whatever Trump DID do was against his own will.

Did you conveniently forget how Congress had to pass a veto-proof bill after Trump wanted to veto the first attempt at Russian sanctions?

Did you conveniently forget how Trump has been refusing to implement any Russian sanctions that ARE passed?

Did you conveniently forget how Trump wanted to lift Russian sanctions, from the time he took office.

eohrnberger said:

With the US now a world leader in energy production (prevented under previous administrations) and nearing energy independence, it's putting the squeeze on Russia's energy sector as well.

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Sure, but Trump has nothing to do with that.

eohrnberger said:

Trump's comment about Germany and the Russian gas pipeline is spot on, although perhaps better phrase should have been turned to make the point, the point, however, stands as accurate.

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Did you pick a Trump comment that you liked? It's easy - since he makes misleading comments all the time and lies on same subject in all kinds of ways, who cares about his comments?

eohrnberger said:

Trump is no Putin fool, not in Putin's pocket

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How would you know? He certainly behaves as one.

eohrnberger said:

But by all means, continue to believe whatever it is that you have to believe.

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Ditto

eohrnberger said:

Are the sanctions in place or not?

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Let's slow this down for you, a bit. The FACTS are:
1. BOTH houses of Congress passed new sanctions against Russia LAST SUMMER...by OVERWHELMING veto-proof votes (about 5 "No" votes TOTAL, in both houses), against the stated desires of the Trump WH.

2. The Trump White House refused to implement the sanctions for the full 6 months allowed by the congressional legislation. Then, in January, as the deadline to implement the sanctions approached, the Trump WH lobbied Congress aggressively, telling them that the president believed that sanctions against Russia were no longer needed.

3. Finally, in March of this year, when congress refused to budge, Trump instructed his cabinet to allow the new sanctions to be implemented, but only part of them.

If you look, and you read, you'll see that's all I was saying, and not what you read into it.

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That's what a veto proof sanctions bill will get you. It had NOTHING to do with Trump. It was, in FACT, against the wishes of Trump, who wanted to END ALL RUSSIAN SANCTIONS from day one in office. To argue, or even imply, that Trump has increased sanctions against Russia...when he opposed them and was forced by congress to enact new ones....is disingenuous (at best).

Bottom line: If Trump had his way, ALL Russian sanctions would have ended on January 20, 2017. That is no longer arguable.

First off, I'm no 'right winger', and secondly Fox news is only part of my daily news uptake. So far you've pretty much missed on most of everything.

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FoxNews is propaganda media. The fact that it is part of your daily "news uptake".....and the fact that you consider it "news" at all....says a lot about you.

As with most left wingers, seemingly nearly impossible to try and have any sort of intelligent discussion with.

Have a nice evening, and good bye.

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LOL, well...between us two, one of us has certainly engaged in a substantive, FACT-BASED, intelligent discussion. That much is clear. You've been spouting fact-free, FoxNews-style talking points, and I've been correcting you with FACTS. From attempting to credit Trump for sanctions on Russia......to declaring (like a true Trump acolyte) that "Trump is no puppet", etc...you seem to have difficulty separating your opinions and wishes from the relevant, objective facts of this issue. So, you are free to go now.

ultmd said:

Let's slow this down for you, a bit. The FACTS are:
1. BOTH houses of Congress passed new sanctions against Russia LAST SUMMER...by OVERWHELMING veto-proof votes (about 5 "No" votes TOTAL, in both houses), against the stated desires of the Trump WH.

2. The Trump White House refused to implement the sanctions for the full 6 months allowed by the congressional legislation. Then, in January, as the deadline to implement the sanctions approached, the Trump WH lobbied Congress aggressively, telling them that the president believed that sanctions against Russia were no longer needed.

3. Finally, in March of this year, when congress refused to budge, Trump instructed his cabinet to allow the new sanctions to be implemented, but only part of them.

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All fine and good. Are the sanctions still in place?

Then, as a whole, the government, both executive and legislative branches arrive at the position that we should be. So functioning properly, from my view.

That's what a veto proof sanctions bill will get you. It had NOTHING to do with Trump. It was, in FACT, against the wishes of Trump, who wanted to END ALL RUSSIAN SANCTIONS from day one in office. To argue, or even imply, that Trump has increased sanctions against Russia...when he opposed them and was forced by congress to enact new ones....is disingenuous (at best).

Bottom line: If Trump had his way, ALL Russian sanctions would have ended on January 20, 2017. That is no longer arguable.

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This is little more than supposition and guessing.

FoxNews is propaganda media. The fact that it is part of your daily "news uptake".....and the fact that you consider it "news" at all....says a lot about you.

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Better to read and watch a wider variety of perspectives than just an echo chamber. Seems you think its better to remain in your echo chamber with its commensurate group think. To bad for you.

LOL, well...between us two, one of us has certainly engaged in a substantive, FACT-BASED, intelligent discussion. That much is clear. You've been spouting fact-free, FoxNews-style talking points, and I've been correcting you with FACTS. From attempting to credit Trump for sanctions on Russia......to declaring (like a true Trump acolyte) that "Trump is no puppet", etc...you seem to have difficulty separating your opinions and wishes from the relevant, objective facts of this issue. So, you are free to go now.

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I've only cited facts. You've indulged in supposition and guessing. Says a lot, yes.

Bucky said:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/obama-slams-politicians-for-utter-loss-of-shame-2018-07-17

The former president embarrased the legacy of Nelson Mandela by using his pulpit to attack a curent sitting president. My question to Obama and his supporters.... You attack Trump for trying to have a relationship with Russia yet your administration negotiated with terrorists and drafted a terrible deal with a even worse rogue regime in Iran? For shame Barack, for shame.

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"*sniff* but but but the decorum!!" - a person who voted for Donald Trump

Tanngrisnir said:

Your irrational jealousy of a successful black man is a sad thing to watch.

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Someone is dealing the race card which is irrational on your part.

barack "slip n slide" obama...you're no Nelson Mandela.

Slavister said:

Yes, Trump change the US position - he weakened it:

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Yeah, clearly a weak position. Already posted that Trump says a lot crap sometimes. Actions speak louder than words.

Whatever Trump DID do was against his own will.

Did you conveniently forget how Congress had to pass a veto-proof bill after Trump wanted to veto the first attempt at Russian sanctions?

Did you conveniently forget how Trump has been refusing to implement any Russian sanctions that ARE passed?

Did you conveniently forget how Trump wanted to lift Russian sanctions, from the time he took office.

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Trump not tough on Russia?
(And not a single right-wing source to boot)

Yeah. Sure. Keep believing the leftist 'news' (political propaganda) media.

Sure, but Trump has nothing to do with that.

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Where in "With the US now a world leader in energy production (prevented under previous administrations) and nearing energy independence, it's putting the squeeze on Russia's energy sector as well."

Did I mention Trump? Do please read what's posted and not what you want to read in.

Did you pick a Trump comment that you liked? It's easy - since he makes misleading comments all the time and lies on same subject in all kinds of ways, who cares about his comments?

How would you know? He certainly behaves as one.

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Here. I'll pose it in such a way that you might 'get it'.



The leftist 'news' (political propaganda) media is at it again.

Ditto

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Ok so I'm happy to bash Trump as much as the next Trump hater but for Obama to stand in South Africa, one of the most unequal and corrupt societies in the world, where thousands of service protest occur every year, because government officials stole money meant for electricy, water, transport, taxes pretty much raided the whole ****ing country, is of the highest levels of hipocrisy I will ever witness in my entire life.

First, I suggest you reread this post showing Trump's true intentions.

Second, you have to understand that Trump HAS to pretend he is "tough" and give you a meaningless symbolic "show", so the right-wingers can point the fingers, just like you are doing.

Now, to your points...

eohrnberger said:

Dec 23, 2017 - The Trump administration has approved a plan to provide lethal weapons to ... The newarms include American-made Javelin anti-tank missiles, U.S. ... Ukraine's military also comes amid early discussions about sending U.N. ...

Yeah, clearly a weak position. Already posted that Trump says a lot crap sometimes. Actions speak louder than words.

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Yeah, Ukraine got really scared of Trump relationship with Putin, so it's been giving stuff to Trump to get anything at all... things like promising U.S. construction firms 90% of contracts for future infrastructure projects in Donbass, brokering a $80 million coal deal with the U.S., and signing a $1 billion deal with GE Transportation for new locomotives. But even more interestingly, Ukraine had blocked the Manafort investigations and its cooperation with Mueller investigation just as the Trump administration was finalizing the weapons deal.

So yes, Trump gave them the symbolic 200 antitank missiles that are kept far from the front lines and are not going to be useful, militarily speaking (Plus, Russia can always resupply its side way faster and easier anyway).

So yeah, you bought all that as being "tough"?

eohrnberger said:

Trump expelling 60 Russian diplomats in wake of UK nerve agent ...

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So what? Nice show but does not really hurt Russia. This is all just symbolic so right-wingers can spin it as being "tough" on Russia without any real true consequences to Russia.

To remind you, this public outcry was all about the poisoning of a former Russian spy in the UK. As you may recall...

After Trump and the White House declined to name Russia as likely being behind the poisoning of a former Russian spy in the U.K., then Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said that Russia was “clearly” behind the attack and that “it certainly will trigger a response.” The next day, Trump fired Tillerson and issued a statement of solidarity with the U.K. Trump’s willingness to hold Russia accountable only came after Tillerson pledged the U.S. would take action.

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.. And then, Trump allowed those US expelled to be replaced!

Russia must be pissing their pants! Boo-hoo. He is so tough. Give me a break!

eohrnberger said:

President Trump is tougher on Russia in 18 months than Obama in ...
Furthermore, it was President Trump who led the world in expelling Russian diplomats after the Russian government was suspected of carrying ...

(And not a single right-wing source to boot)

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You are being disingenuous at best. Check again your reference. Just because The Hill is kind enough to allow right-wing opinion writers' drivel, it does not mean they stopped being right wing. Since when did Jen Kerns become a left-winger? LOL

eohrnberger said:

Where in "With the US now a world leader in energy production (prevented under previous administrations) and nearing energy independence, it's putting the squeeze on Russia's energy sector as well."

Did I mention Trump? Do please read what's posted and not what you want to read in.

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Reread your post #66. This was among the points you were making on how Trump is doing so well on Russia. Otherwise, it's not clear why you even mentioned the above at all. The only thing you and I are discussing is the silly notion that Trump is "tough" on Russia.

Slavister said:

First, I suggest you reread this post showing Trump's true intentions.

Second, you have to understand that Trump HAS to pretend he is "tough" and give you a meaningless symbolic "show", so the right-wingers can point the fingers, just like you are doing.

Now, to your points...



Yeah, Ukraine got really scared of Trump relationship with Putin, so it's been giving stuff to Trump to get anything at all... things like promising U.S. construction firms 90% of contracts for future infrastructure projects in Donbass, brokering a $80 million coal deal with the U.S., and signing a $1 billion deal with GE Transportation for new locomotives. But even more interestingly, Ukraine had blocked the Manafort investigations and its cooperation with Mueller investigation just as the Trump administration was finalizing the weapons deal.

So yes, Trump gave them the symbolic 200 antitank missiles that are kept far from the front lines and are not going to be useful, militarily speaking (Plus, Russia can always resupply its side way faster and easier anyway).

So yeah, you bought all that as being "tough"?




So what? Nice show but does not really hurt Russia. This is all just symbolic so right-wingers can spin it as being "tough" on Russia without any real true consequences to Russia.

To remind you, this public outcry was all about the poisoning of a former Russian spy in the UK. As you may recall...



.. And then, Trump allowed those US expelled to be replaced!

Russia must be pissing their pants! Boo-hoo. He is so tough. Give me a break!

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Meh. Everyone has a right to their own opinion.

You are being disingenuous at best. Check again your reference. Just because The Hill is kind enough to allow right-wing opinion writers' drivel, it does not mean they stopped being right wing. Since when did Jen Kerns become a left-winger? LOL

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There were two citations, but take away what you will, or not.

Reread your post #66. This was among the points you were making on how Trump is doing so well on Russia. Otherwise, it's not clear why you even mentioned the above at all. The only thing you and I are discussing is the silly notion that Trump is "tough" on Russia.

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The point about energy production was that the US is very near to, if not already, energy independent, a long time parroted goal of the political elites, yet it took a Trump administration for it to happen (may or may not be directly causal effect, but hard to imagine the Obama restrictions as being able to facilitate this, probably a different discussion than this one).

Anyway, this energy independence is market leverage that can be applied to Russia, reducing the market value of Russian energy exports. Whether the Trump administration is going to use this leverage or not is yet to be seen, but hard to imagine the Trump administration not using leverage when they have it. Hard to imagine that the Obama administration would use this leverage, not having a history of doing so previously.

Seems this fine point went right past you, so I wanted to elaborate.

eohrnberger said:

U.S. agrees to send lethal weapons to Ukraine, angering Russia ...
U.S. agrees to send lethal weapons to Ukraine, angering Russia - Chicago Tribune
Dec 23, 2017 - The Trump administration has approved a plan to provide lethal weapons to ... The newarms include American-made Javelin anti-tank missiles, U.S. ... Ukraine's military also comes amid early discussions about sending U.N. ...
​

Yeah, clearly a weak position. Already posted that Trump says a lot crap sometimes. Actions speak louder than words.



Trump not tough on Russia?

Trump expelling 60 Russian diplomats in wake of UK nerve agent ...
https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/26/politics/us-expel-russian-diplomats/index.html
Mar 26, 2018 - The United States, European Union countries, Canada and Ukraine expelled more than 100 Russian diplomats on Monday in response to ...

President Trump is tougher on Russia in 18 months than Obama in ...
thehill.com/.../397212-president-trump-is-tougher-on-russia-in-18-months-than-obam...
4 days ago - Furthermore, it was President Trump who led the world in expelling Russian diplomatsafter the Russian government was suspected of carrying ...
​

(And not a single right-wing source to boot)

Yeah. Sure. Keep believing the leftist 'news' (political propaganda) media.



Where in "With the US now a world leader in energy production (prevented under previous administrations) and nearing energy independence, it's putting the squeeze on Russia's energy sector as well."

Did I mention Trump? Do please read what's posted and not what you want to read in.



Here. I'll pose it in such a way that you might 'get it'.

The leftist 'news' (political propaganda) media is at it again.

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I figured it out.

Right wingers are completely immune to the concept of context. Liberals mad about kids being separated from their families? Liberals must think its never ok to separate children from their parents. Liberals mad about Trump's discussions with Putin? Liberals must think it's always bad to even be in the same room as Putin.

Deuce said:

I figured it out.

Right wingers are completely immune to the concept of context. Liberals mad about kids being separated from their families? Liberals must think its never ok to separate children from their parents. Liberals mad about Trump's discussions with Putin? Liberals must think it's always bad to even be in the same room as Putin.

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Context?

Isn't the context that two heads of state meet?

Fine when it's not Trump, and end of the world when it is. Yeah, context.

eohrnberger said:

Context?

Isn't the context that two heads of state meet?

Fine when it's not Trump, and end of the world when it is. Yeah, context.

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Quod Erat Demonstrandum. Latin, "that which was to be demonstrated." You just did exactly what I was talking about. Let me help ya out, brother:

See, "stands in same room as Putin" isn't what is making liberals mad. It's what was done, and what was said. Trump took Russia's side, excusing their acts against the United States. Obama and Hillary never did that. Bush never did that. Just Trump.

Bucky said:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/obama-slams-politicians-for-utter-loss-of-shame-2018-07-17

The former president embarrased the legacy of Nelson Mandela by using his pulpit to attack a curent sitting president. My question to Obama and his supporters.... You attack Trump for trying to have a relationship with Russia yet your administration negotiated with terrorists and drafted a terrible deal with a even worse rogue regime in Iran? For shame Barack, for shame.

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Can you quote where he mentioned Trump by name?

CriticalThought said:

Can you quote where he mentioned Trump by name?

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He didn't have the balls to do so.

As one famous liberal commentator said:

If Hillary Gave Obama "One Of Her Balls," He'd Have Two

PTF said:

Someone is dealing the race card which is irrational on your part.

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Good thing no one has done that.

CriticalThought said:

Can you quote where he mentioned Trump by name?

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He didn't. He seldom does.

Bucky said:

Obama attacked police officer and is represents a party that advocates for the dismantling of ICE.

Those that want to call Trump being a puppet to Putin, let me ask you this; What was Obama's response when he found about Russia meddling in 2016? What did he do specifically to address the issue?

If Trump is a puppet then Obama is negligent.

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He apparently went to McConnell and suggested a joint statement... Rejected... He wisely shut up about it in an election year. He blew it when he commented about the police officer. He invited the officer and the scholar he had clashed with to sit down together. We all learned something. Trump insults women, Mexicans, refugees, Muslims, posts a false video of a Muslim attacking someone, rejects our allies and expresses admiration for dictators. On balance, Obama looks pretty good compared to Orange Julius, except to Fifth Avenue Republicans.

CriticalThought said:

Can you quote where he mentioned Trump by name?

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It's pretty obvious he was referring to Trump and other authoritarians who have arisen recently.