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We have a tratior in the White House

Sabre said:
War with Russia would mean many more deaths than you evidently imagine, we are the worlds two largest nuclear powers, is only takes one to foolishly launch a nuke and set the entire world back to the stone age, or worse, with retaliation strikes. There is no place in the US or Russian that would be spared, if not from the direct hit, the fallouts. That kind of war would not be like WWl or WWll. I do not believe in betraying our government or our way of life, have always defended it and always will, but I don't believe in leading with knee-jerk reactions either. Since the beginning of our country there has always been a member of my family serving in every war we have had, right up to my son who survived his tour in the sandbox - so don't try to lay that lack patriotism on me.

Your inference in replacing the avatar speaks a lot to your understanding or lack of, as to your very conservative lean, I always say I am to the right of Rush, but I'm not crazy. Perhaps you have never been directly involved, but war is not something to take a caviler attitude about. Since the beginning of our country, there has always been a member of my family serving in every war we have had, right up to my son who survived his tour in the sandbox - so don't try to lay that lack patriotism on me.
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That is another false narrative. There is miles of leeway between Trump groveling on his belly and a knee jerk reaction. That he could not even find a piece of that wide boulevard between groveling and a knee jerk reaction says that he either had no interest in it for whatever reason or is simply incapable as in unfit on the competence score alone.

Trump ripped his own butt-hole stem to stern this time and there is really no fixing it. After months and months or corruption and malfeasance, he has finally ripped it.
 
Zyphlin said:
It's much easier to criticize Trump when it's done done hysterically and hyperbolicly, and it's far more likely to help garner others to your cause as well. When you're declaring that an entire political party is a "Threat" to the country and declaring someone a Traitor, suggesting of treason, you're speaking in hysterics and being foolish.

Trumps actions and words were ridiculous, horrendous, and does a disservice to the Presidency. He absolute should be condemned and criticized for his detestable actions and statements. But it's hard to focus on him and him alone when people are freaking out about it in such hysterical ways as to suggest treason, suggest that the military needs to take action to deal with him, to suggest that a 3rd of the country are a "threat" to it, and other such things that have been happening in its wake.
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it's great to hear another conservative denounce Trump, well done.

As far as my hysterical hyperbolic post, surely you must see that here everyday from both sides. And by the way, try Googling "is Trump a traitor", you'll find many links to many heavy weights from our government, including our former CIA director, bandy about that word.

Other than the hardcore right, most people would not consider him hysterical...
 
veritas1 said:
No, nor is it close to treason, resembling treason or in the same universe as treason. Those claims are hysterical posturing.
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Oh, please. This is just more lickspittle behavior from a Trump acolyte.

"...nor is it close to treason, resembling treason or in the same universe as treason"? Clearly, you don't understand what you are talking about.

Treason is the only crime specifically defined in the Constitution. It has two criteria, either of which must be met: (1) "waging war" against the U.S., or (2) "adhering to the enemy, giving aid and comfort within the U.S. or elsewhere". Clearly, Trump has not taken up arms against the U.S. in any way-nor would he ever, considering he sought 5 deferments to avoid fighting for the U.S. during the Vietnam war. However, while it's clear that Trump has ABSOLUTELY sided with a hostile foreign leader, and AGAINST the U.S....and has CLEARLY given "aid and comfort" to Putin and the Russian government..it's not likely that he meets the definition of "treason" because the only way to establish an "enemy" is be formal congressional declaration.

So, it is NOT clear that Trump's behavior meets the strict definition of "treason". It's a matter of nuance, but I would argue that he has NOT yet met the strict standard established in the U.S. Constitution. However, that's hardly clear. It's a matter of academic legal debate, as to the definition of "enemy". But the idea that it is "not even in the same universe as treason"........was just stupid.


Trump got off track in the press conference and answered questions he should have ignored. That is not treason. He confirmed that Putin denied meddling as everyone knew he would and left it at that. That is not treason. Trump haters have to stop doing the work of our enemies, which is to sow discord here and get us attacking each other.
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What is clear is that Trump acolytes have already betrayed the U.S. It's clear that many of them would support Putin and Russia over "liberals" and minorities in the U.S....which makes the Trumpsters decidedly LESS than American, imo.

Polls have shown, for a while now, that Putin and Russia are increasingly viewed favorably byut right wing Americans. Most recently, Pew showed that a full 25% (1 in 4) of all republicans hold favorable views of Putin. Gallup shows that a full 40% of all GOPers now view Russia and Putin as a friend and ally of the U.S. So clearly, many of the righties on this board are extreme right wingers.

The fact that GOP'ers view Putin more favorably than they viewed Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton....says all one needs to know about the state of mind of the far right, these days.
 
SoCal said:
You actually believe that it's the left and not the right who's giving Putin what he wants?? Frankly, I'm not sure whether to laugh or throw up either. I've never heard that standing up to an enemy as giving them anything.

Btw, you're been hearing the word 'traitor' this morning not because of what he said in a news conference. It was what he didn't say or demand...
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Tojo.jpg
 
OlNate said:
I get you, brother, I do...but if you're on a boat in the middle of the ocean, doesn't matter who made the hole, I guarantee you're all bailing. Sometimes survival is more important than blame...just something to reflect on.
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That's a good point and would agree once the hole is made. I wonder haw many Republicans would agree though.

But blame aside, I would also claim that confronting and exposing someone, an idea, a bad decision or an outrageous act, can stop the hole in the first place...
 
SoCal said:
That's a good point and would agree once the hole is made. I wonder haw many Republicans would agree though.

But blame aside, I would also claim that confronting and exposing someone, an idea, a bad decision or an outrageous act, can stop the hole in the first place...
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Yup...I agree... But the fact is, though, you're in the sinking ship stage. Right now, if asked for my advice, I'd suggest that you guys stop being "Left" and "Right", and just be American for five minutes, as an individual commitment not reliant upon anyone else doing the same (otherwise no one will ever do it), and just trying to figure out what's best for America. Because this ain't it...but you're going to sink anyway unless you all start bailing.
 
jnug said:
Trump yesterday to Hannity:

"You look at Paul Manafort, a nice man" discussing those that have been indicted by Mueller.

A nice man....you have got to be kidding me!

More important than the moral fiber of one Paul Manafort, the Trump Campaign plucked him out of the Ukraine having not been at all involved in American politics for 14 years. Manafort had been carrying water for oligarchs for those 14 years and they made him the campaign manager....BASED ON WHAT? At that point it surely was not for his knowledge of the 2016 American political environment.
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Well said and is the reason why Trump and his manager reduced the tough language on Russia in the Republican platform. Although I'm sure that many conservatives believe that it had nothing to do with Trump and Manafort's close relationship with Putin, Russia and their spheres of influence...
 
Luckyone said:
First of all, Russia interfered with our election in favor of one candidate versus another, meaning that they tried to influence who we (as U.S. citizens) vote for. Friends do not do that enemies do.
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did they really if so where's the proof.

Secondly, Russia is an autocracy and is repressive of free speech and human rights, which is contrary to everything that we represent for us and our constitution.
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but aren't they really though if so what human rights do they repress explain.


That also makes them enemies of us because if they ever get control of our government, such as what is happening right now with Trump, they will work toward making us an autocracy and take out the rights we are all accustomed to having.
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right now the Trump election thing is conspiracy theory.

Are those enough reasons for you?
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myths and conspiracy theories aren't enough for me.
 
Manc Skipper said:
Russia has been murdering people in Britain for years. The latest was collateral damage in the Skripal poisoning. Why are you taking the enemy's side? Copying the president?
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I don't know if they're enemies. You haven't made a case for it.

Claiming there murdering people is a claim made without evidence. Now I don't really want to dismiss it but you got to provide evidence.
 
CLAX1911 said:
...myths and conspiracy theories aren't enough for me.
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"The Justice Department announced indictments against 12 Russian nationals as part of special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election..."

Open your eyes, you can lead a horse to water but...
 
SoCal said:


"The Justice Department announced indictments against 12 Russian nationals as part of special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election..."

Open your eyes, you can lead a horse to water but...
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And where is the proof that these people were government operatives?
 
Fiddytree said:
Yeah, 2016 was more significant than previous incidents, but Russia had started testing Western resolve since 2008. Every time conservative critics rightly pointed out that Putin was out for expansion and mayhem liberals would make the concerns sound like someone pitching a 80s glam rock reunion tour: pffft....give it up old man. That was sooo long ago!
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So this is the con argument now..."We are not going to really get our dander up about Russian actions DIRECTLY in US affairs now...because O took a swipe at at Romney in 2012".

Usually those saying "I told you so" will still be fighting that fight.
 
ultmd said:
Oh, please. This is just more lickspittle behavior from a Trump acolyte.

"...nor is it close to treason, resembling treason or in the same universe as treason"? Clearly, you don't understand what you are talking about.

Treason is the only crime specifically defined in the Constitution. It has two criteria, either of which must be met: (1) "waging war" against the U.S., or (2) "adhering to the enemy, giving aid and comfort within the U.S. or elsewhere". Clearly, Trump has not taken up arms against the U.S. in any way-nor would he ever, considering he sought 5 deferments to avoid fighting for the U.S. during the Vietnam war. However, while it's clear that Trump has ABSOLUTELY sided with a hostile foreign leader, and AGAINST the U.S....and has CLEARLY given "aid and comfort" to Putin and the Russian government..it's not likely that he meets the definition of "treason" because the only way to establish an "enemy" is be formal congressional declaration.

So, it is NOT clear that Trump's behavior meets the strict definition of "treason". It's a matter of nuance, but I would argue that he has NOT yet met the strict standard established in the U.S. Constitution. However, that's hardly clear. It's a matter of academic legal debate, as to the definition of "enemy". But the idea that it is "not even in the same universe as treason"........was just stupid.




What is clear is that Trump acolytes have already betrayed the U.S. It's clear that many of them would support Putin and Russia over "liberals" and minorities in the U.S....which makes the Trumpsters decidedly LESS than American, imo.

Polls have shown, for a while now, that Putin and Russia are increasingly viewed favorably byut right wing Americans. Most recently, Pew showed that a full 25% (1 in 4) of all republicans hold favorable views of Putin. Gallup shows that a full 40% of all GOPers now view Russia and Putin as a friend and ally of the U.S. So clearly, many of the righties on this board are extreme right wingers.

The fact that GOP'ers view Putin more favorably than they viewed Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton....says all one needs to know about the state of mind of the far right, these days.
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Like I said, nothing Trump has done is remotely close to treason and, as I laid out in another post, he has taken actions which are directly against Russian interests in several cases. This is just more hysterics from the hate Trump crowd, nothing more. As for Putin, I do not support Putin, I do not trust Putin and I do not view Putin as an ally. I can hold those positions and not be a Trump hater. I know that might sound remarkable to you, but there it is.

I also find it heartily amusing to see the party who was the Bolsheviks' best buddies for 60+ years now waxing eloquent in their love of country and hatred of Russia. I remember back in the 80's when they attacked Reagan and said he'd start a war and were saying he was too tough on the poor Russkies. Now, many of these same people have switched gears 180 degrees because the Bolsheviks are gone (in name anyway) and Trump is President.
 
SoCal said:
I would be perfectly willing to give up my life in the defense of our ideals, rights and freedom. I will assume you feel likewise...
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As they say, been there, done that. A bit too old to do what I did then, but if it came to defense at home, you bet I would give it all I had.
 
rocket88 said:
If by "his class" you mean "the United States of America," you're absolutely right.
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that one of them there Mexican flags you waving while speaking on treason?
 
Zyphlin said:
An act of war that was evident and known about for MONTHS before the orange egomaniac ever sat behind the Resolute Desk, but was acted on with mild political action similar to what's occurred under him, because of a desire to not damage and hinder the political efforts of the former Presidents party. But I remember no such histrionics occurring from you over that, as a President ***** footed around on something you declare an "act of war" in the interests of his party, I remember no calls of treason from that.
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I've frequently said that Obama was a weak president; hell, I didn't even vote for him in 2008 because I believed him an empty suit with a charismatic smile. He did, however, confront Putin directly in the fall of 2016 and supposedly told him to "knock it off". Then Obama made sure sanctions on Russia were signed, sealed and delivered before he left office. So no, I had no "histrionic" calls of treason then; nor did anyone else.

Yes, you may be mad as hell, but that doesn't change that you're acting hysterical, and have been for quite some time like sadly so many people are. So many that it's actually harming the chance of successfully attacking and fighting back against the problematic actions he undertakes. As to your bubble and your pin suggestion, excuse me as I give zero ****s of your worthless and ignorant opinion on that matter, as you're in no place to judge anyone on such a thing as you function purely as an unthinking, emotional viewer when it comes to anything relating to Trump. The diehard hysterical anti-trumpers are as much in their own ridiculous bubble as the zealot pro-trumpers.
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Likewise, I give zero ****s about your just as worthless, ignorant, hysterical opinion about my worthless, ignorant, hysterical opinion. Clearly you are also behaving in an unthinking, emotional manner as you throw out insult after insult in an attempt to denigrate my opinion, which is just as valid as your own even though it clearly differs. The personal nature of your attack is rather jarring, but not completely surprising.

For the past two years, dozens of former cabinet members and high-ranking intelligence officials have repeatedly pronounced the brazen Russian attack on our election to be an "act of war"; I, and others, did not merely yank that term out of our asses. Just because our country was attacked by technology instead of bombs does not make it any less of an attack, as those who refer to it as "meddling" would like us to believe.

I'll also point out here that no less than three former US intelligence cabinet members have used the "T-word" in the past 24 hours. I presume you also believe them to be histrionic and hysterical, and their opinions to be worthless and ignorant, based on unthinking emotion. No? Well, there it is then.

Now where we do agree is yes, I think what Russian has engaged in is nothing short of Cyber Warfare. I think they've been engaging in it for quite some time, and brazenly so in 2015. I'm anxious for a time when we finally have a President that deals with such a thing in a throaty and full forced fashion, because the past two have been woefully inept in putting this COUNTRIES interests first and dealing with the threat appropriately. Obama's response was bad, Trump's has been worse, and I hate to even try to imagine what it would like like if that downward trend continues.
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Yes, we do agree on this.
 
ultmd said:
Oh, please. This is just more lickspittle behavior from a Trump acolyte.

"...nor is it close to treason, resembling treason or in the same universe as treason"? Clearly, you don't understand what you are talking about.

Treason is the only crime specifically defined in the Constitution. It has two criteria, either of which must be met: (1) "waging war" against the U.S., or (2) "adhering to the enemy, giving aid and comfort within the U.S. or elsewhere". Clearly, Trump has not taken up arms against the U.S. in any way-nor would he ever, considering he sought 5 deferments to avoid fighting for the U.S. during the Vietnam war. However, while it's clear that Trump has ABSOLUTELY sided with a hostile foreign leader, and AGAINST the U.S....and has CLEARLY given "aid and comfort" to Putin and the Russian government..it's not likely that he meets the definition of "treason" because the only way to establish an "enemy" is be formal congressional declaration.
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I think you need to expand your reading of treason and the Constitution, your reasoning's are tinted by bias. Nothing has been done that rises to the level of treason according to the constitution.

"Under Article III, Section 3, of the Constitution: any person who levies war against the United States or adheres to its enemies by giving them Aid and Comfort has committed treason within the meaning of the Constitution. The term aid and comfort refers to any act that manifests a betrayal of allegiance to the United States, such as furnishing enemies with arms, troops, transportation, shelter, or classified information. If a subversive act has any tendency to weaken the power of the United States to attack or resist its enemies, aid and comfort has been given."

The Treason Clause applies only to disloyal acts committed during times of war. Acts of dis-loyalty during peacetime are not considered treasonous under the Constitution. Nor do acts of Espionage committed on behalf of an ally constitute treason."

Was what he said a smart thing to say? absolutely not, but not treasonous. I am certain he will rue those words.
 
CLAX1911 said:
did they really if so where's the proof.

but aren't they really though if so what human rights do they repress explain.


right now the Trump election thing is conspiracy theory.

myths and conspiracy theories aren't enough for me.
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You did not answer my first question, why?

I asked you before:

Does your post mean that you do not trust our intelligence gathering people? The work that they do and have done for years to protect us? Does that also mean that you support giving Putin the benefit of the doubt? and if so, for what reason would you want to do that? What can Putin do for US that is worth throwing our professionals under the bus?

Answer that question first and then I will answer these questions.
 
Luckyone said:
You did not answer my first question, why?

I asked you before:

Does your post mean that you do not trust our intelligence gathering people? The work that they do and have done for years to protect us? Does that also mean that you support giving Putin the benefit of the doubt? and if so, for what reason would you want to do that? What can Putin do for US that is worth throwing our professionals under the bus?

Answer that question first and then I will answer these questions.
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No...
 
veritas1 said:
Like I said, nothing Trump has done is remotely close to treason and, as I laid out in another post, he has taken actions which are directly against Russian interests in several cases. This is just more hysterics from the hate Trump crowd, nothing more. As for Putin, I do not support Putin, I do not trust Putin and I do not view Putin as an ally. I can hold those positions and not be a Trump hater. I know that might sound remarkable to you, but there it is.

I also find it heartily amusing to see the party who was the Bolsheviks' best buddies for 60+ years now waxing eloquent in their love of country and hatred of Russia. I remember back in the 80's when they attacked Reagan and said he'd start a war and were saying he was too tough on the poor Russkies. Now, many of these same people have switched gears 180 degrees because the Bolsheviks are gone (in name anyway) and Trump is President.
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Traitor, Betrayer, Judas, Informer, Hypocrite, Snake, Imposter, Puppet, Pawn, Servant or Patsy. Take your choice of word to describe Trump.
 
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