What's the societal end game and how do we get there?

I think most will agree that throughout most of American history, as well as throughout nearly all of human history, there has existed societal imbalances where certain groups of people (majorities or those with more power) are given preference or are afforded more privilege over other groups of people (minorities or those with less power). The civil war marked the beginning when America began to take steps to correct those imbalances and culminated in the 1960's with civil rights legislation being passed into law.


I want to ask everyone, regardless of what side of the political spectrum they reside, what is the end game? What is it you believe needs to be achieved in our society and what steps do you support being taken in order to reach that goal?


Do you think we should strive for:
a) Equality of opportunity.
b) Equality of outcome.


Do you believe:
a) That majority groups or the most powerful groups should be given societal preference over less powerful or minority groups.
b) That less powerful or minority groups should be given societal preference over majority groups or the most powerful groups.
c) That people should be treated as individuals based on their own merits and accomplishments, regardless of their group status.
d) Other (explain)


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I personally believe in "a" and "c".


Equality of opportunity is what we should strive for. People are different in a multitude of ways and equality of opportunity allows everyone the individual freedom to be what ever it is they want to be and the chance to achieve their dreams. Opportunity motivates people to work hard, go the extra mile, and be the best they can be to make their dreams in life come true. It makes for a happier, less conflicted and more productive society. It means that every facet of industry will excel because they will not have the barriers put in their way that equality of outcome creates. Barriers such as racial or gender quotas that prevent them from employing the best of the best, or the financial restrictions that take away worker incentive and reduce productivity.


Would you rather have hospitals employ the highest quality staff of medical professionals, or the most diverse staff of medical professionals? How about teachers? What about school councilors? Rescue workers? Medical researchers? Engineers? People who take care of the elderly? Home builders? Bus drivers?


Treating people as individuals, rather than based on their group identity, is what the civil rights movement was all about. It's what MLK preached about and until recently, it's what our society as a whole was striving for. Group identity over individualism is tribalism, and tribalism within a society leads to conflict and violence.

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Grim17 said:

I think most will agree that throughout most of American history, as well as throughout nearly all of human history, there has existed societal imbalances where certain groups of people (majorities or those with more power) are given preference or are afforded more privilege over other groups of people (minorities or those with less power). The civil war marked the beginning when America began to take steps to correct those imbalances and culminated in the 1960's with civil rights legislation being passed into law.


I want to ask everyone, regardless of what side of the political spectrum they reside, what is the end game? What is it you believe needs to be achieved in our society and what steps do you support being taken in order to reach that goal?


Do you think we should strive for:
a) Equality of opportunity.
b) Equality of outcome.


Do you believe:
a) That majority groups or the most powerful groups should be given societal preference over less powerful or minority groups.
b) That less powerful or minority groups should be given societal preference over majority groups or the most powerful groups.
c) That people should be treated as individuals based on their own merits and accomplishments, regardless of their group status.
d) Other (explain)


--------------------------------------------------------


I personally believe in "a" and "c".


Equality of opportunity is what we should strive for. People are different in a multitude of ways and equality of opportunity allows everyone the individual freedom to be what ever it is they want to be and the chance to achieve their dreams. Opportunity motivates people to work hard, go the extra mile, and be the best they can be to make their dreams in life come true. It makes for a happier, less conflicted and more productive society. It means that every facet of industry will excel because they will not have the barriers put in their way that equality of outcome creates. Barriers such as racial or gender quotas that prevent them from employing the best of the best, or the financial restrictions that take away worker incentive and reduce productivity.


Would you rather have hospitals employ the highest quality staff of medical professionals, or the most diverse staff of medical professionals? How about teachers? What about school councilors? Rescue workers? Medical researchers? Engineers? People who take care of the elderly? Home builders? Bus drivers?


Treating people as individuals, rather than based on their group identity, is what the civil rights movement was all about. It's what MLK preached about and until recently, it's what our society as a whole was striving for. Group identity over individualism is tribalism, and tribalism within a society leads to conflict and violence.

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Why can't a doctor be black?

The problem comes in the fact that there are still racists. They will not give people equal opportunity regardless, and as a society we can't just sit back and hope they change.

What if someone wants to be a single mother of three, not work outside of their home (they aspire to be a community planner/organizer and work for the government) and provide their children with designer clothing, all of the latest high tech toys and, of course, college educations? I realize that is a rather extreme example, yet many seem to say that 'access to' (all?) goods/services should not depend on one's personal income and, living in a rich country, that should certainly be possible.

rocket88 said:

Why can't a doctor be black?

The problem comes in the fact that there are still racists. They will not give people equal opportunity regardless, and as a society we can't just sit back and hope they change.

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The two different doctors that treated me on both my recent ER visits were both black....and very good too.
...or did I completely miss your point.

rocket88 said:

Why can't a doctor be black?

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Who said they couldn't be?

The problem comes in the fact that there are still racists. They will not give people equal opportunity regardless, and as a society we can't just sit back and hope they change.

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I didn't ask you what is the problem as you see it, I asked you what is the end game... What do you want society to achieve?

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PleasantValley said:

The two different doctors that treated me on both my recent ER visits were both black....and very good too.

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That's what we want... The best doctors we can have regardless of the color of their skin.

...or did I completely miss your point.

Click to expand...

I know I did...

Grim17 said:

I think most will agree that throughout most of American history, as well as throughout nearly all of human history, there has existed societal imbalances where certain groups of people (majorities or those with more power) are given preference or are afforded more privilege over other groups of people (minorities or those with less power). The civil war marked the beginning when America began to take steps to correct those imbalances and culminated in the 1960's with civil rights legislation being passed into law.


I want to ask everyone, regardless of what side of the political spectrum they reside, what is the end game? What is it you believe needs to be achieved in our society and what steps do you support being taken in order to reach that goal?


Do you think we should strive for:
a) Equality of opportunity.
b) Equality of outcome.


Do you believe:
a) That majority groups or the most powerful groups should be given societal preference over less powerful or minority groups.
b) That less powerful or minority groups should be given societal preference over majority groups or the most powerful groups.
c) That people should be treated as individuals based on their own merits and accomplishments, regardless of their group status.
d) Other (explain)


--------------------------------------------------------


I personally believe in "a" and "c".


Equality of opportunity is what we should strive for. People are different in a multitude of ways and equality of opportunity allows everyone the individual freedom to be what ever it is they want to be and the chance to achieve their dreams. Opportunity motivates people to work hard, go the extra mile, and be the best they can be to make their dreams in life come true. It makes for a happier, less conflicted and more productive society. It means that every facet of industry will excel because they will not have the barriers put in their way that equality of outcome creates. Barriers such as racial or gender quotas that prevent them from employing the best of the best, or the financial restrictions that take away worker incentive and reduce productivity.


Would you rather have hospitals employ the highest quality staff of medical professionals, or the most diverse staff of medical professionals? How about teachers? What about school councilors? Rescue workers? Medical researchers? Engineers? People who take care of the elderly? Home builders? Bus drivers?


Treating people as individuals, rather than based on their group identity, is what the civil rights movement was all about. It's what MLK preached about and until recently, it's what our society as a whole was striving for. Group identity over individualism is tribalism, and tribalism within a society leads to conflict and violence.

.

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I tend to think of organized religion and political parties as tribal because they always seem to vote as a bloc, rather than as individuals.


How would it be to abolish countries and nation governments and have people go back to tribalism? I picture a world like Mad Max or the Walking Dead. Lots of freedom and individualism...but the lifespans would be short and miserable.

Moot said:

I tend to think of organized religion and political parties as tribal because they always seem to vote as a bloc, rather than as individuals.


How would it be to abolish countries and nation governments and have people go back to tribalism? I picture a world like Mad Max or the Walking Dead. Lots of freedom and individualism...but the lifespans would be short and miserable.

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OK... So what is the end game in your view... What do you want society to achieve?

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Grim17 said:

OK... So what is the end game in your view... What do you want society to achieve?

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If society goes tribal the end game will look like a Mad Max or a Walking Dead movie, imo.

I think society should strive to be civilized, well educated, empathetic towards it's poor and to peacefully co-exist with people of different culture, race and ethnicity.

rocket88 said:

Why can't a doctor be black?

The problem comes in the fact that there are still racists. They will not give people equal opportunity regardless, and as a society we can't just sit back and hope they change.

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I'm so sick of these kinds of generalizations.

My grandfather became a doctor back before Brown vs. Board of Education.

He started working odd jobs, then as a ditch digger. He eventually got a job as a coroner's asst. and used that to finagle himself into medical school. He became a prominent, well-respected doctor in Kentucky.

People could accomplish things even back in the bad old days, if they used every opportunity and did their best.

Today, there are NO real institutional or social barriers to ANYONE becoming whatever they want. It bugs me no end that people still push this racism narrative.

Yes, there are individuals who are racist. Yes, sometimes they get into positions which allow them petty abuses.

NO, today there is no real roadblock to any Black American becoming anything they choose, other than their own unwillingness to try.

Let me add one caveat...a major roadblock are those other members of the Black Community itself, who prefer to blame everyone for their own failures, and often tear down other Blacks who do apply themselves successfully.

Grim17 said:

*I snipped most of your post for length/character limit.

Do you think we should strive for:
a) Equality of opportunity.
b) Equality of outcome.

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I know of no one who believes in striving for equality of outcome. I am sure there are few people, but the vast majority realize it is not a possibility. And even equality of opportunity is kinda shorthand for "society should work to ensure a basic level of opportunity for all where possible". The children of rich people will have more opportunities than the children of poor people, and there really is not anything wrong with that. Rich people by and large worked hard to ensure they could give their kids more opportunity. Parents who are motivated are going to have kids with more opportunities. What is desirable is that every one has enough of an opportunity to succeed in life, to achieve wealth and happiness. Whether they can achieve that or not is up to the individual. What is also desirous, and I will talk more in response to your second point on this, is that the disparity in opportunity is based on achievement, and not on innate factors like race or orientation.

It is also important to realize that even that amount of equity in opportunity is to an extent impossible. We cannot achieve perfection, we can only strive to do better.

*Again, a bunch of stuff edited out for space/character limit*
Do you believe:
a) That majority groups or the most powerful groups should be given societal preference over less powerful or minority groups.
b) That less powerful or minority groups should be given societal preference over majority groups or the most powerful groups.
c) That people should be treated as individuals based on their own merits and accomplishments, regardless of their group status.
d) Other (explain)

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We should always strive to arrive at a place where the third option, "c" is possible, given the above about a basic level of opportunity and what should be the reasons for the difference in levels of opportunity. However, until we reach that point, it is important to work with those who have less opportunity to shore up their level of opportunity to a basic minimum. Even then, doing it on the basis of minority groups is not always the best way, unless you are specifically addressing areas where a minority group is given lesser opportunity than other groups. To give an example of each: we should seek to provide public schooling that meets a certain minimum criterion. Any and every public school student should have access to education that will give them a good start on college, or entry into a skilled trade, or whatever other life goals might be common that school can prepare you for(yes, that is long winded, but as soon as you leave something out, some one complains...). While this will impact mostly urban, inner city, mostly black schools, those schools also do have white students, and it would also impact rural, largely white communities like I grew up in.

On the other hand, there are areas where black people, because of their race, have a harder time getting ahead. Awhile back a study had some interesting results that where in the news awhile. Here is the first link from my google search, you can find many more sources on this: Do job-seekers with 'white' names get more callbacks than 'black' names? | PunditFact. Black people find it harder to find jobs based on, essentially, being black(or at least having a black sounding name). This is an area where we, as a society, need to do better. I am not sure there is any way to improve the situation legislatively, but we do need to do better.

So to summarize, there are no one size fits all answers. Where race is an issue in attaining a base level of opportunity, we do need to consider it. But we also need to make improvement for all groups, and across the board.

Continued in next post because character limit is lame. I feel so Zyphlin tonight...

Grim17 said:

Would you rather have hospitals employ the highest quality staff of medical professionals, or the most diverse staff of medical professionals? How about teachers? What about school councilors? Rescue workers? Medical researchers? Engineers? People who take care of the elderly? Home builders? Bus drivers?

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Both is possible, and desirable, for a multitude of reasons. Different backgrounds frequently provide different routes to solutions kinda thing. Some people of all races are more comfortable around those of their own race, making diversity of race important, just as diversity in gender is important in service jobs(trust me, when I was immobile in the hospital awhile, have the opposite sex wash me and wipe my ass and stuff was really ****ing uncomfortable). Teachers and councilors in schools need to be able to relate to the problems of their students, which again is aided by diversity. In other words, in many cases, the highest quality staff is the one that values diversity.

Grim17 said:

Who said they couldn't be?



I didn't ask you what is the problem as you see it, I asked you what is the end game... What do you want society to achieve?

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Equal results demand equal opportunity. Equal opportunity will bring equal results.

PleasantValley said:

The two different doctors that treated me on both my recent ER visits were both black....and very good too.
...or did I completely miss your point.

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The point is that doctors or anybody get somewhere because of their brains and their work (and the fact that some people are just way more fortunate). Why assume "affirmative action" because you see a bunch of non-whites?

rocket88 said:

Equal results demand equal opportunity. Equal opportunity will bring equal results.

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Equal results will never happen because people are different.

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rocket88 said:

Equal results demand equal opportunity. Equal opportunity will bring equal results.

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That is 100 % false. Not only is there no such thing as "equal opportunity", there are far too many variables to consistently get equal results.

Grim17 said:

I think most will agree that throughout most of American history, as well as throughout nearly all of human history, there has existed societal imbalances where certain groups of people (majorities or those with more power) are given preference or are afforded more privilege over other groups of people (minorities or those with less power). The civil war marked the beginning when America began to take steps to correct those imbalances and culminated in the 1960's with civil rights legislation being passed into law.


I want to ask everyone, regardless of what side of the political spectrum they reside, what is the end game? What is it you believe needs to be achieved in our society and what steps do you support being taken in order to reach that goal?


Do you think we should strive for:
a) Equality of opportunity.
b) Equality of outcome.


Do you believe:
a) That majority groups or the most powerful groups should be given societal preference over less powerful or minority groups.
b) That less powerful or minority groups should be given societal preference over majority groups or the most powerful groups.
c) That people should be treated as individuals based on their own merits and accomplishments, regardless of their group status.
d) Other (explain)


--------------------------------------------------------


I personally believe in "a" and "c".


Equality of opportunity is what we should strive for. People are different in a multitude of ways and equality of opportunity allows everyone the individual freedom to be what ever it is they want to be and the chance to achieve their dreams. Opportunity motivates people to work hard, go the extra mile, and be the best they can be to make their dreams in life come true. It makes for a happier, less conflicted and more productive society. It means that every facet of industry will excel because they will not have the barriers put in their way that equality of outcome creates. Barriers such as racial or gender quotas that prevent them from employing the best of the best, or the financial restrictions that take away worker incentive and reduce productivity.


Would you rather have hospitals employ the highest quality staff of medical professionals, or the most diverse staff of medical professionals? How about teachers? What about school councilors? Rescue workers? Medical researchers? Engineers? People who take care of the elderly? Home builders? Bus drivers?


Treating people as individuals, rather than based on their group identity, is what the civil rights movement was all about. It's what MLK preached about and until recently, it's what our society as a whole was striving for. Group identity over individualism is tribalism, and tribalism within a society leads to conflict and violence.

.

Click to expand...

I don't think you can achieve equality of outcome but you can achieve equal opportunity.

With education, more has to be done to level the playing field. As it is now, people from poor districts have to send their children to disfunctional schools. And students from poor families need more support because they don't have access to highly educated parents.

The other problem is job opportunity. Most people get jobs through friends and relatives. If you're part of the majority that works to your advantage.

Redress said:

That is 100 % false. Not only is there no such thing as "equal opportunity", there are far too many variables to consistently get equal results.

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Spread out over groups as broad as "people that aren't white" you will see the results even out overall. In time. Right now, we're still working n the equal opportunity part. White kids in the suburbs are going to better educated than black kids in the inner cities.

Grim17 said:

Equal results will never happen because people are different.

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individuals are different. Broad groups like racial groups - especially when you pur all non-whites people in one box - you're going to generate similar results with equal opportunity.