• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Things Trump's NATO vitriol never mentions

Xelor

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2018
Messages
10,257
Reaction score
4,161
Location
Washington, D.C.
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Twice in the 21st century, NATO has come to the U.S. aid:
To hear Trump tell it, one'd think the U.S. gets nothing from its NATO membership.
 
Twice in the 21st century, NATO has come to the U.S. aid:
To hear Trump tell it, one'd think the U.S. gets nothing from its NATO membership.

NATO responded in Afghanistan, too. It was the only time that NATO mutual defense has been invoked.
Two Portugese soldiers died because the US had been attacked.
 
So, in this week wherein Trump attended the NATO summit, we've heard more of his vitriol, yet did he at all acknowledge -- literally, contextually, tonally, allusively, or some other way -- that the only beneficiary of NATO's "to harm one is to harm all" doctrine has been the U.S? Nope.
 
So, in this week wherein Trump attended the NATO summit, we've heard more of his vitriol, yet did he at all acknowledge -- literally, contextually, tonally, allusively, or some other way -- that the only beneficiary of NATO's "to harm one is to harm all" doctrine has been the U.S? Nope.

This is all about Trump's base. Many of his base hate Europe, even more than they dislike Russia. And at least the GOP in Congress said enough and backed NATO. I really don't think Trump cares about the country or the harm he is doing to us economically or internationally. All he cares about is his base and how they see things.
 
This is all about Trump's base. Many of his base hate Europe, even more than they dislike Russia. And at least the GOP in Congress said enough and backed NATO. I really don't think Trump cares about the country or the harm he is doing to us economically or internationally. All he cares about is his base and how they see things.

Trump is a threat to national security.
 
Twice in the 21st century, NATO has come to the U.S. aid:
To hear Trump tell it, one'd think the U.S. gets nothing from its NATO membership.

With the amount of money we've spent on NATO over the decades, they'd BETTER come to our defense.

But that doesn't mean we STILL have to foot the lion's share of the bill.
 
This is all about Trump's base. Many of his base hate Europe, even more than they dislike Russia. And at least the GOP in Congress said enough and backed NATO. I really don't think Trump cares about the country or the harm he is doing to us economically or internationally. All he cares about is his base and how they see things.

I do think he's essentially a popularity seeker....he's been that since he was a boy, and only of late has he really received a measure of the approbation he thought he deserved.
 
With the amount of money we've spent on NATO over the decades, they'd BETTER come to our defense.

But that doesn't mean we STILL have to foot the lion's share of the bill.


About 4 years ago, Germany's military was stranded everywhere, when they were supposed to support us.

Their constitution does not allow them to actively engage in a "fight" - unless it is for defense of their country, so they've been acting more as a support "army" (sometimes they reminded me of the White Helmets).
Anyway, around 2014 Germany's "military secretary" had a fit about the lack of funding for the Bundeswehr. 2/3 of their helicopters were unusable, planes were stranded half-way to their destination because of maintenance problems. In addition to:

"... while Ukrainian troops were battling pro-Russian separatists on the eastern edges of Europe, a German battalion participated in a NATO exercise in Norway. They didn’t have any weapons with them, but the German army, the Bundeswehr, has long been used to shortages of equipment. So the soldiers knew what to do: They took a broomstick, painted it black, and holstered it to the vehicle where a gun should have gone.

... the Bundeswehr unit currently operating the Patriot missile defense system in Turkey is literally eating into its own inventory. Because certain replacement parts are unavailable, the military is being forced to cannibalize equipment based in Germany in order to keep the Turkey-based Patriots in operation. The Patriots are being used to defend Turkey from possible cross-border attacks in the Syrian civil war.

... Already, the defense minister has been forced to concede that Germany will not reach its 2014 NATO Defense Planning Process targets for its airborne systems. In the event of an Article 5 attack on a NATO member state -- in the Baltics, for example -- the Bundeswehr has pledged to make 60 Eurofighters available, but it is currently incapable of supplying them. If the allies come knocking at Germany's door for greater engagement in northern Iraq or Africa, the Bundeswehr won't be able to deliver there either. Indeed, it's possible that the world's fourth largest industrial nation and global leader in exports wouldn't even be able to provide six fighter jets to a US-led coalition in northern Iraq."


Mishaps Mar German Military Operations - SPIEGEL ONLINE


“We have mobilized 65 countries to go after ISIL,” ... if they were all like Germany it was no wonder ISIS was winning.
 
About 4 years ago, Germany's military was stranded everywhere, when they were supposed to support us.

Their constitution does not allow them to actively engage in a "fight" - unless it is for defense of their country, so they've been acting more as a support "army" (sometimes they reminded me of the White Helmets).
Anyway, around 2014 Germany's "military secretary" had a fit about the lack of funding for the Bundeswehr. 2/3 of their helicopters were unusable, planes were stranded half-way to their destination because of maintenance problems. In addition to:

"... while Ukrainian troops were battling pro-Russian separatists on the eastern edges of Europe, a German battalion participated in a NATO exercise in Norway. They didn’t have any weapons with them, but the German army, the Bundeswehr, has long been used to shortages of equipment. So the soldiers knew what to do: They took a broomstick, painted it black, and holstered it to the vehicle where a gun should have gone.

... the Bundeswehr unit currently operating the Patriot missile defense system in Turkey is literally eating into its own inventory. Because certain replacement parts are unavailable, the military is being forced to cannibalize equipment based in Germany in order to keep the Turkey-based Patriots in operation. The Patriots are being used to defend Turkey from possible cross-border attacks in the Syrian civil war.

... Already, the defense minister has been forced to concede that Germany will not reach its 2014 NATO Defense Planning Process targets for its airborne systems. In the event of an Article 5 attack on a NATO member state -- in the Baltics, for example -- the Bundeswehr has pledged to make 60 Eurofighters available, but it is currently incapable of supplying them. If the allies come knocking at Germany's door for greater engagement in northern Iraq or Africa, the Bundeswehr won't be able to deliver there either. Indeed, it's possible that the world's fourth largest industrial nation and global leader in exports wouldn't even be able to provide six fighter jets to a US-led coalition in northern Iraq."


Mishaps Mar German Military Operations - SPIEGEL ONLINE


“We have mobilized 65 countries to go after ISIL,” ... if they were all like Germany it was no wonder ISIS was winning.

Germany is kind of a special case with regard to war and going to war. They made those laws because they have something you lack. Insight. Self awareness. They don't want something that happened twice before to happen again, because it ends badly for a lot of people.
 
Twice in the 21st century, NATO has come to the U.S. aid:
To hear Trump tell it, one'd think the U.S. gets nothing from its NATO membership.

Florence, Italy
 

Attachments

  • download.jpg
    download.jpg
    12.1 KB · Views: 23
Germany is kind of a special case with regard to war and going to war. They made those laws because they have something you lack. Insight. Self awareness. They don't want something that happened twice before to happen again, because it ends badly for a lot of people.

Yeah. They can't trust their own leaders to not start another world war.
 
Germany is kind of a special case with regard to war and going to war. They made those laws because they have something you lack. Insight. Self awareness. They don't want something that happened twice before to happen again, because it ends badly for a lot of people.

They didn't make those laws ... the allieds made them after 1945.
 
Germany is kind of a special case with regard to war and going to war. They made those laws because they have something you lack. Insight. Self awareness. They don't want something that happened twice before to happen again, because it ends badly for a lot of people.

I forgot to add in my other post ... neither Germany nor Japan are "allowed" to have a standing army.
Do you thing that was of their own choosing?!? ;)
 
And another thing Trump doesn't mention:
  • The U.S. has bases all over Western Europe that, were we not part of NATO, we would either have to pay for or we'd simply not have them, thus not have a presence in a place where our adversaries could start a war and/or annex our allies' nations.
Furthermore, Trump is flat-out incoherent in his remarks. To wit, what Trump is obsessing over like a man trying to fish a nickel out of a deep and muddy storm drain is that back in 2014 NATO members issued a nonbonding call for each country to bump up defense spending to about 2 percent of its national GDP. This was a simple and un-nuanced way to suggest each nation pull its own weight; in practice, it’s been difficult for small countries to ramp up military spending so dramatically because they have little infrastructure to spend it on (see: Iceland) and because few countries are willing to burn enormous heaps of money via the United States-preferred cash-furnaces of nuclear aircraft carriers and the world’s most expensive fighter jets.

While slow going, the call to boost spending has been effective; most nations have indeed been increasing their military budgets—and a large reason for that is Russian military aggression. The NATO alliance was formed in the first place as a counter to Soviet military aggressions in Europe; Putin’s unsubtle ambitions to retake old Soviet-held territory in the name of a new greater Russia, and especially the Russian military invasion and occupation of Crimea, have instilled a new sense of urgency in European nations now facing a new and substantive military threat from the Russian kleptocracy.

That’s right: NATO is urging members to spend more money in large part to combat Russian aggression. If you explained to Donald Trump that the primary reason NATO members have been seeking to dramatically increase defense spending is to protect themselves from Putin’s Russia, however, he would likely look at you in a stupor. The man knows that NATO should be spending more money to build up their military—but he doesn’t have the foggiest idea why. The man is, we repeat, a f–king idiot. He is a screen door without the screen; he is a scooped-out pumpkin rotting on a porch long after Halloween has passed.

Indeed, while Trump burps out his One Remembered Talking Point on NATO, that everybody should be spending more money (he still appears to believe NATO members owe this money to the United States, which is not even close to being true unless one presumes that Trump expects every nation to purchase new F-35 military jets from America in order to make up the difference, which he might), the biggest news in the lead-up to the NATO summit has been Trump’s threats to pull the United States out of NATO entirely—an effort to unravel the alliance that just happens to coincide with one of the Russian government’s own most long-sought ambitions.

Which is it? Do NATO members need to spend vastly more money in order to counter new military aggressions from Putin’s government, or are those and other world aggressions so inconsequential that NATO is no longer needed at all? Don’t ask tantrum-boy, he doesn’t have the slightest idea what he’s even arguing for. At no point has Trump been able to coherently explain what NATO is or why the United States belongs to it in the first place; as usual, he continues to treat the presidency as one of his cheap private business endeavors, imagining it can only count as successful if Donald Trump is personally screwing every other entity he comes into contact with for whatever pocket change they can toss his direction.
 
To be honest, there are so many incoherent, wack job threads being started by Trumplicans these days its hard to keep from just laughing yourself senseless. But just two quick points because these discussions are beyond rational.

NATO allies pay the freight for our bases on their soil. Those happen to be bases we want to occupy! If we brought those troops home we would be paying to put them up and they would not be well positioned to respond to a threat.

Next, just the Intelligence/Counter-intelligence benefits we get from the NATO alliance is worth its weight in gold. Just stop, you blithering idiots, wherever you are. My God these cement heads are tedious. As for Trump, he made fool of himself again today, an utter and complete fool. His own Sec of State, Chief of Staff and Sec of Def were desperately trying to shrink away from him as he prattled on incoherently. Even members of the Senate are finally starting to find their voices about this NATO nonsense and tariffs.
 
Trump responds to question about whether he can leave NATO without Congressional approval: "I think I can"

Horse dung...YOU CAN"T Donald...

Trump continues and I am paraphrasing:
I am negotiating, I'm not negotiating.

More drivel on the Russia/Germany Gas pipeline. As I stated in an earlier post, if we don't like the pipeline, sell Germany Natural Gas. The problem is we will not meet Germany's price. Well guess what Donkey Donald, if an issue in your view is a National Security issue you can't at the same time be unwilling to forgo profits. You want to call Germany buying Natural Gas from Russia a Security issue, offer a price Germany will pay or SHUT UP.

This act is getting pretty old.
 
Last edited:
I forgot to add in my other post ... neither Germany nor Japan are "allowed" to have a standing army.
Do you thing that was of their own choosing?!? ;)

Did you forget that you/Trump berate them for not doing what they are forbidden to do?
 
To be honest, there are so many incoherent, wack job threads being started by Trumplicans these days its hard to keep from just laughing yourself senseless. But just two quick points because these discussions are beyond rational.

NATO allies pay the freight for our bases on their soil. Those happen to be bases we want to occupy! If we brought those troops home we would be paying to put them up and they would not be well positioned to respond to a threat.

Next, just the Intelligence/Counter-intelligence benefits we get from the NATO alliance is worth its weight in gold. Just stop, you blithering idiots, wherever you are. My God these cement heads are tedious. As for Trump, he made fool of himself again today, an utter and complete fool. His own Sec of State, Chief of Staff and Sec of Def were desperately trying to shrink away from him as he prattled on incoherently. Even members of the Senate are finally starting to find their voices about this NATO nonsense and tariffs.

US Senate votes to defend NATO as Trump attacks alliance

  • Lawmakers in Washington worked quickly Tuesday to set legislative guardrails in support of NATO as President Donald Trump, who has repeatedly bashed the alliance, arrived in Europe for a NATO summit and meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin later in the week. Hours after Trump landed in Brussels, the Senate passed a non-binding measure, 97-2, that expresses support for NATO, its mutual self-defense clause and calls on the administration to rush its whole-of-government strategy to counter Russia’s meddling in the U.S. and other democracies.


Off Topic:
 
About 4 years ago, Germany's military was stranded everywhere, when they were supposed to support us.

Their constitution does not allow them to actively engage in a "fight" - unless it is for defense of their country, so they've been acting more as a support "army" (sometimes they reminded me of the White Helmets).
Anyway, around 2014 Germany's "military secretary" had a fit about the lack of funding for the Bundeswehr. 2/3 of their helicopters were unusable, planes were stranded half-way to their destination because of maintenance problems. In addition to:

"... while Ukrainian troops were battling pro-Russian separatists on the eastern edges of Europe, a German battalion participated in a NATO exercise in Norway. They didn’t have any weapons with them, but the German army, the Bundeswehr, has long been used to shortages of equipment. So the soldiers knew what to do: They took a broomstick, painted it black, and holstered it to the vehicle where a gun should have gone.

... the Bundeswehr unit currently operating the Patriot missile defense system in Turkey is literally eating into its own inventory. Because certain replacement parts are unavailable, the military is being forced to cannibalize equipment based in Germany in order to keep the Turkey-based Patriots in operation. The Patriots are being used to defend Turkey from possible cross-border attacks in the Syrian civil war.

... Already, the defense minister has been forced to concede that Germany will not reach its 2014 NATO Defense Planning Process targets for its airborne systems. In the event of an Article 5 attack on a NATO member state -- in the Baltics, for example -- the Bundeswehr has pledged to make 60 Eurofighters available, but it is currently incapable of supplying them. If the allies come knocking at Germany's door for greater engagement in northern Iraq or Africa, the Bundeswehr won't be able to deliver there either. Indeed, it's possible that the world's fourth largest industrial nation and global leader in exports wouldn't even be able to provide six fighter jets to a US-led coalition in northern Iraq."


Mishaps Mar German Military Operations - SPIEGEL ONLINE


“We have mobilized 65 countries to go after ISIL,” ... if they were all like Germany it was no wonder ISIS was winning.

So what is this, an invocation to a more militarized Germany? Are you out of your mind. The Germans themselves even know better than to get them rolling.

One of these days some of the nimrods that key nonsense in these pages will get how different it is to live in countries sharing multiple land borders with neighbors that can swing hostile or friendly everywhere ans how quickly nationalism can turn into neo nationalism in such an environment. In fact if Trump has his way, we will find out about that particular geopolitical reality through personal experience. We won't have to read about it. We will live it.
 
Trump proved it today. Trump is the most dangerous leader in the world. Its not even close. Trump is the threat to our national security.

Almost worse, he has a yellow streak up his back a mile wide. That impromptu, unscheduled Trump press conference this morning was an effort at damage control. He opened his big mouth, inserted his foot and then scurried out to the podium to try to turn it into some sort of victory again incoherently talking in circles in the effort.

HE .....IS....AN.....IDIOT and without question the biggest threat to peace and security in the world.
 
To further make the point if NATO allies increased defense spending to the levels he demanded during this NATO summit it would amount to the re-miliarization of Europe, about as dangerous and idiotic a position that any US president has ever established for himself.

I would encourage Europeans to read their own history with regard to appeasing a bully. It pains me to admit that this time the bully is our own American President. If we here in America think this ends well for us, I would encourage us to read the same history I am encouraging Europeans to read.
 
Last edited:
Congressional hearings pushing Trump and his visit to the UK way onto the back pages. Little Donny is not going to be happy. I would bet real money that he is going to hand Pompeo, Mattis, Bolton and Kelly M-16s and helmets and demand that they "Invade" and take 10 Downing St to regain the A Block on all the 24/7 Cable News Networks.

Mattis will defer to Kelly to lead. I can hear him now "lets go Pompeo you lardass. Get up that hill. Bolton, move you pencil necked geek".

They only thought Brussels was embarrassing.
 
Something else Trump always neglects to mention...

The NATO 2% of GDP contribution that Trump keeps harping about is a 'goal'. It does not become a firm commitment on NATO member states until 2024.

This NATO 'goal/2024 commitment' was agreed upon by all NATO states (including the United States) at the 2014 Wales NATO Summit.
 
Back
Top Bottom