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Economy of Detroit vs. Appalachia: what’s the difference?

ataraxia

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We all know that the economies of both inner city Detroit and Rural Appalachia are in distress. In the last few decades, with the decline of the domestic auto and coal industries respectively, these places have taken a severe beating. Employment is down. Drug use is up.

What’s interesting, however, is how disparately Republicans have chosen to frame the situation in these two places. Detroit is supposedly suffering because the people there are stupid and lazy and dependent on government handouts from liberal policies. But Appalachia is supposed to be hardworking Americans who have just been ravaged by liberal policies, and will do fine if they are just left free to keep mining their coal.

But the reason Detroit went broke is the same reason West Virginia is going broke: lack of economic diversification. I know right wingers are trying to blame Detroit’s bankruptcy on “liberal policies”. But the fact is all of Detroit was built on the auto industry, just like the Appalachians was just relying on the coal industry, and with the shifting fortunes of that just one industry, these places are getting hurt.

This is no excuse to call the people who live in such places stupid and lazy and leave them out to die on the street. You help them get back on their feet. That’s what competent and just governments do. There is no “liberal policies” that are hurting Detroit or keeping Appalachia down. There is no fundamental difference in the work ethic of the people living in those places. Trying to do so is not helpful and only helps to polarize the country and keep policies which might help both of them to get back in their feet from being implemented. We should not let Detroit just suffer “until it learns its lesson to work harder”, nor artificially keep trying to prop up an archaic industry in Appalachia in the name of “hard working Americans who just want to be free to work hard”. It’s dysfunctional to paralyze any useful action by just partisan blaming. Let’s stop blaming and roll up our sleeves and start fixing. It’s not communist fascist tyranny for a government to help its people fix such problems. That’s what governments, at least competent ones, are supposed to do.
 
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We all know that the economies of both inner city Detroit and Rural Appalachia are in distress. In the last few decades, with the decline of the domestic auto and coal industries respectively, these places have taken a severe beating. Employment is down. Drug use is up.

What’s interesting, however, is how disparately Republicans have chosen to frame the situation in these two places. Detroit is supposedly suffering because the people there are stupid and lazy and dependent on government handouts from liberal policies. But Appalachia is supposed to be hardworking Americans who have just been ravaged by liberal policies, and will do fine if they are just left free to keep mining their coal.

But the reason Detroit went broke is the same reason West Virginia is going broke: lack of economic diversification. I know right wingers are trying to blame Detroit’s bankruptcy on “liberal policies”. But the fact is all of Detroit was built on the auto industry, just like the Appalachians was just relying on the coal industry, and with the shifting fortunes of that just one industry, these places are getting hurt.

This is no excuse to call the people who live in such places stupid and lazy and leave them out to die on the street. You help them get back on their feet. That’s what competent and just governments do. There is no “liberal policies” that are hurting Detroit or keeping Appalachia down. There is no fundamental difference in the work ethic of the people living in those places. Trying to do so is not helpful and only helps to polarize the country and keep policies which might help both of them to get back in their feet from being implemented. We should not let Detroit just suffer “until it learns its lesson to work harder”, nor artificially keep trying to prop up an archaic industry in Appalachia in the name of “hard working Americans who just want to be free to work hard”. It’s dysfunctional to paralyze any useful action by just partisan blaming. Let’s stop blaming and roll up our sleeves and start fixing. It’s not communist fascist tyranny for a government to help its people fix such problems. That’s what governments, at least competent ones, are supposed to do.

No actually government is not for fixing stuff never has been. At ours anyhow. It was mainly setup to referee disputes amongst ourselves. If an area is dying then it is up to the people that live there to either resolve the problem or move. If somebody doesn't want to move, that's on them.
 
No actually government is not for fixing stuff never has been. At ours anyhow. It was mainly setup to referee disputes amongst ourselves. If an area is dying then it is up to the people that live there to either resolve the problem or move. If somebody doesn't want to move, that's on them.

You want to say that to Trump country? The workers at the Carrier plant in Indiana?

But when you don’t help, that’s when drug use and crime goes up and the people do crazy things. There seem to be no breaks on how far down the ensuing downward spirals of poverty and dysfunction go. It’s not an economically or politically stable approach, it seems.
 
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We all know that the economies of both inner city Detroit and Rural Appalachia are in distress. In the last few decades, with the decline of the domestic auto and coal industries respectively, these places have taken a severe beating. Employment is down. Drug use is up.

What’s interesting, however, is how disparately Republicans have chosen to frame the situation in these two places. Detroit is supposedly suffering because the people there are stupid and lazy and dependent on government handouts from liberal policies. But Appalachia is supposed to be hardworking Americans who have just been ravaged by liberal policies, and will do fine if they are just left free to keep mining their coal.

But the reason Detroit went broke is the same reason West Virginia is going broke: lack of economic diversification. I know right wingers are trying to blame Detroit’s bankruptcy on “liberal policies”. But the fact is all of Detroit was built on the auto industry, just like the Appalachians was just relying on the coal industry, and with the shifting fortunes of that just one industry, these places are getting hurt.

This is no excuse to call the people who live in such places stupid and lazy and leave them out to die on the street. You help them get back on their feet. That’s what competent and just governments do. There is no “liberal policies” that are hurting Detroit or keeping Appalachia down. There is no fundamental difference in the work ethic of the people living in those places. Trying to do so is not helpful and only helps to polarize the country and keep policies which might help both of them to get back in their feet from being implemented. We should not let Detroit just suffer “until it learns its lesson to work harder”, nor artificially keep trying to prop up an archaic industry in Appalachia in the name of “hard working Americans who just want to be free to work hard”. It’s dysfunctional to paralyze any useful action by just partisan blaming. Let’s stop blaming and roll up our sleeves and start fixing. It’s not communist fascist tyranny for a government to help its people fix such problems. That’s what governments, at least competent ones, are supposed to do.

You didn't say what the solutions are.
 
We all know that the economies of both inner city Detroit and Rural Appalachia are in distress. In the last few decades, with the decline of the domestic auto and coal industries respectively, these places have taken a severe beating. Employment is down. Drug use is up.

What’s interesting, however, is how disparately Republicans have chosen to frame the situation in these two places. Detroit is supposedly suffering because the people there are stupid and lazy and dependent on government handouts from liberal policies. But Appalachia is supposed to be hardworking Americans who have just been ravaged by liberal policies, and will do fine if they are just left free to keep mining their coal.

But the reason Detroit went broke is the same reason West Virginia is going broke: lack of economic diversification. I know right wingers are trying to blame Detroit’s bankruptcy on “liberal policies”. But the fact is all of Detroit was built on the auto industry, just like the Appalachians was just relying on the coal industry, and with the shifting fortunes of that just one industry, these places are getting hurt.

This is no excuse to call the people who live in such places stupid and lazy and leave them out to die on the street. You help them get back on their feet. That’s what competent and just governments do. There is no “liberal policies” that are hurting Detroit or keeping Appalachia down. There is no fundamental difference in the work ethic of the people living in those places. Trying to do so is not helpful and only helps to polarize the country and keep policies which might help both of them to get back in their feet from being implemented. We should not let Detroit just suffer “until it learns its lesson to work harder”, nor artificially keep trying to prop up an archaic industry in Appalachia in the name of “hard working Americans who just want to be free to work hard”. It’s dysfunctional to paralyze any useful action by just partisan blaming. Let’s stop blaming and roll up our sleeves and start fixing. It’s not communist fascist tyranny for a government to help its people fix such problems. That’s what governments, at least competent ones, are supposed to do.

OK, this is a call for government 'useful action' without, of course, ever defining what form that 'useful action' should take.

I see the problem as being that anyone with a useful skill and a means to move (from the blighted area) to where that skill is in demand has likely already done so. That leaves folks largely dependent on tryng to start a new business/career in an area with nearly zero consumer demand (other than that supported by outside "safety net" assistance), a rapidly deteriorating infrastructure and a lack of any local tax base to do much of anything about it.

A public policy that might work is the 'enterprise zone' idea of trying to attract an exiting major business (or two) that has an established market (customer demand) outside of the blighted area into that area using reduced (or even negative) taxation (as bait) to lure in such a big fish (or two). The basic problem with that 'enterprise zone' idea is that these new employers (enterprises) must depend (at least for quite a while) on having much of their existing more highly skilled workforce go along with relocating to a very depressed area - can you imagine the appeal of sending your kids to a Detriot or Appalachian public school?
 
We all know that the economies of both inner city Detroit and Rural Appalachia are in distress. In the last few decades, with the decline of the domestic auto and coal industries respectively, these places have taken a severe beating. Employment is down. Drug use is up.

What’s interesting, however, is how disparately Republicans have chosen to frame the situation in these two places. Detroit is supposedly suffering because the people there are stupid and lazy and dependent on government handouts from liberal policies. But Appalachia is supposed to be hardworking Americans who have just been ravaged by liberal policies, and will do fine if they are just left free to keep mining their coal.

But the reason Detroit went broke is the same reason West Virginia is going broke: lack of economic diversification. I know right wingers are trying to blame Detroit’s bankruptcy on “liberal policies”. But the fact is all of Detroit was built on the auto industry, just like the Appalachians was just relying on the coal industry, and with the shifting fortunes of that just one industry, these places are getting hurt.

This is no excuse to call the people who live in such places stupid and lazy and leave them out to die on the street. You help them get back on their feet. That’s what competent and just governments do. There is no “liberal policies” that are hurting Detroit or keeping Appalachia down. There is no fundamental difference in the work ethic of the people living in those places. Trying to do so is not helpful and only helps to polarize the country and keep policies which might help both of them to get back in their feet from being implemented. We should not let Detroit just suffer “until it learns its lesson to work harder”, nor artificially keep trying to prop up an archaic industry in Appalachia in the name of “hard working Americans who just want to be free to work hard”. It’s dysfunctional to paralyze any useful action by just partisan blaming. Let’s stop blaming and roll up our sleeves and start fixing. It’s not communist fascist tyranny for a government to help its people fix such problems. That’s what governments, at least competent ones, are supposed to do.

The less anti-Trump screed is that people in distressed economies don't move. They sit there like a cargo cult and hope economic opportunity comes to them.

When your job dies, you pack up and move to where the jobs are. Sad but true, but ask a cow what she does when she runs out of grass... she moooooves...(unless she is on welfare, then she gets hay given to her and she can stay there)

That's why companies like illegal aliens - they are motivated! And they know poverty and distress and they know they must save themselves because there is no free money to be found.
 
The suburbs in Detroit are almost all doing better than Detroit, some astonishingly better. They sprung up due to the auto industry, so why is that? Have the Big 3 gone out of business? Maybe Detroit's leadership has driven business out over the years with their policies. I think the real question is, why aren't the Democrats doing anything about Detroit's problems, since they've run it for over 50 years? Republicans often try, but of course we're all racists to you so that could be part of the problem as well.
 
I'm from Appalachia, what they dearly, and sorely need there is access to adult education programs. And awareness of said programs. And the money to take those programs.

They also need a great deal of investment in some new industries. And I'm not talking low tech factories either. Low tech manufacturing is all going overseas or being automated, investing in that now, would be really dumb.

And they need to legalize marijuana, and start jailing rural doctors that are over prescribing hillbilly heroin for the pharma kickback.
 
The suburbs in Detroit are almost all doing better than Detroit, some astonishingly better. They sprung up due to the auto industry, so why is that? Have the Big 3 gone out of business? Maybe Detroit's leadership has driven business out over the years with their policies. I think the real question is, why aren't the Democrats doing anything about Detroit's problems, since they've run it for over 50 years? Republicans often try, but of course we're all racists to you so that could be part of the problem as well.

What are Republicans doing for Appalachian coal country?
 
The poorest states, cities and counties are all Republican.

Feel free to Google the catastrophe that is Republican policy in Oklahoma and Kansas.

Government can help by redistributing wealth to spur growth or help people relocate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You didn't say what the solutions are.

There are many. But some of the most interesting ones were proposed by both Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, and also by some posters here: education and retraining.

We need to update the work force. All the low-tech, low-skill jobs are going overseas. It's not because of liberals. The market forces are demanding it. Did you know that all those jobs Trump was trying to protect at the Carrier plant in Indiana during his campaign? I bet Fox News doesn't report this, but they are moving 500 more jobs this year to Mexico. And they are likely going to be closing that plant altogether by next year. Google it.

Meanwhile, lots of higher skill jobs are going unfilled, and corporations are having to resort to the horror of recruiting skilled immigrants from other countries to fill those jobs. Why not fill them with Americans. I bet we can train and educate both Tyrone from Detroit and Billy Joe Bob from rural WV to do those jobs. That's the way to make America great again. Not to try to maintain the economy of the 1950s just to artificially prop up jobs and skills which are obsolete in today's economy.

Trying to protect the low skill jobs is swimming upstream. Government CAN have an important role in subsidizing education and retraining for the American workforce of the 21st century.
 
There are many. But some of the most interesting ones were proposed by both Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton, and also by some posters here: education and retraining.

That's pretty vague. What specifically do you have in mind here?

\We need to update the work force. All the low-tech, low-skill jobs are going overseas. It's not because of liberals. The market forces are demanding it. Did you know that all those jobs Trump was trying to protect at the Carrier plant in Indiana during his campaign? I bet Fox News doesn't report this, but they are moving 500 more jobs this year to Mexico. And they are likely going to be closing that plant altogether by next year. Google it.

Meanwhile, lots of higher skill jobs are going unfilled, and corporations are having to resort to the horror of recruiting skilled immigrants from other countries to fill those jobs. Why not fill them with Americans. I bet we can train and educate both Tyrone from Detroit and Billy Joe Bob from rural WV to do those jobs. That's the way to make America great again. Not to try to maintain the economy of the 1950s just to artificially prop up jobs and skills which are obsolete in today's economy.

I'm well-aware of all of this, and never said otherwise.

But if you want government solutions, you need to come up with an actual plan, and not platitudes and generalities. What do you have?
 
We all know that the economies of both inner city Detroit and Rural Appalachia are in distress. In the last few decades, with the decline of the domestic auto and coal industries respectively, these places have taken a severe beating. Employment is down. Drug use is up.

What’s interesting, however, is how disparately Republicans have chosen to frame the situation in these two places. Detroit is supposedly suffering because the people there are stupid and lazy and dependent on government handouts from liberal policies. But Appalachia is supposed to be hardworking Americans who have just been ravaged by liberal policies, and will do fine if they are just left free to keep mining their coal.

But the reason Detroit went broke is the same reason West Virginia is going broke: lack of economic diversification. I know right wingers are trying to blame Detroit’s bankruptcy on “liberal policies”. But the fact is all of Detroit was built on the auto industry, just like the Appalachians was just relying on the coal industry, and with the shifting fortunes of that just one industry, these places are getting hurt.

This is no excuse to call the people who live in such places stupid and lazy and leave them out to die on the street. You help them get back on their feet. That’s what competent and just governments do. There is no “liberal policies” that are hurting Detroit or keeping Appalachia down. There is no fundamental difference in the work ethic of the people living in those places. Trying to do so is not helpful and only helps to polarize the country and keep policies which might help both of them to get back in their feet from being implemented. We should not let Detroit just suffer “until it learns its lesson to work harder”, nor artificially keep trying to prop up an archaic industry in Appalachia in the name of “hard working Americans who just want to be free to work hard”. It’s dysfunctional to paralyze any useful action by just partisan blaming. Let’s stop blaming and roll up our sleeves and start fixing. It’s not communist fascist tyranny for a government to help its people fix such problems. That’s what governments, at least competent ones, are supposed to do.

Appalachia white--good.

Detroit black--bad.

Pretty simple. We are talking about the Racist GOP after all.
 
That's pretty vague. What specifically do you have in mind here?



I'm well-aware of all of this, and never said otherwise.

But if you want government solutions, you need to come up with an actual plan, and not platitudes and generalities. What do you have?

What do you want, a detailed bill proposal on a chat site?

Here are some of Hillary Clinton's proposals, along with further elaborations on it from the University of Chicago. They seemed like very smart places to start a conversation on the issue. But that seems so far away now.

Issues Archive - The Office of Hillary Rodham Clinton
www.forbes.com/sites/ucenergy/2016/...plan-to-revitalize-coal-country/#712780091953
 
What do you want, a detailed bill proposal on a chat site?

If there's to be something to talk about, yes, or at least something concrete. Generalities and vagaries don't give anything meaningful to talk about.

Here are some of Hillary Clinton's proposals, along with further elaborations on it from the University of Chicago. They seemed like very smart places to start a conversation on the issue. But that seems so far away now.

Issues Archive - The Office of Hillary Rodham Clinton
www.forbes.com/sites/ucenergy/2016/...plan-to-revitalize-coal-country/#712780091953

Of that, this one could have some merit:

As part of this agenda, Hillary is calling for a tax credit for businesses that hire apprentices, providing much needed on-the-job training—especially for young Americans.

Her plan would put forward a tax credit for businesses of $1,500 per apprentice and would insist on accountability for employment and earnings outcomes for programs receiving the credit. Hillary’s plan will also grant a bonus on that tax credit to businesses for providing opportunities specifically for young people.

Though the preference for "young Americans" doesn't exactly jibe for the areas you're talking about.
 
If there's to be something to talk about, yes, or at least something concrete. Generalities and vagaries don't give anything meaningful to talk about.



Of that, this one could have some merit:



Though the preference for "young Americans" doesn't exactly jibe for the areas you're talking about.

OK. That's fine. Like I said, these would have been good places for starting a national dialogue on how to proceed. But blaming the problems of Appalachia on immigrants, and Detroit's problems on "liberal policies", and promising to cling to obsolete coal technology to save jobs, and firing up white-hot levels of racial animus, anger, hatred, paranoia, and division in the country, was not.
 
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