You were worried about socialism, what about fascism?

ThoughtEx. said:

Trump saying maybe we should give President for life a try.

And, did you read what I posted. I defined fascism, it's ultra nationalism. Not normal nationalism like, I love the flag, I love the troops, I love freedom. But, white nationalism. The kind of nationalism that makes you want to separate Asylum seekers from their children as a deterrent. The kind that says, well they might have committed a misdemeanor so it's ok to hold them for months without trial, it's their own fault they lost their kids. And if you want to be kind to immigrants that are different from ordinary Americans, then you want open borders and anarchy. And hate America. Ultra Nationalism.

No, he fits the bill. Trying to normalize his bull**** and play the peacemaker only helps him get away with more bull****. Hard pass on that one.

Click to expand...

Hm, that's... interesting.

I'm not sure if Trump necessarily wants to be a dictator as much as he wants the "honor" and "respect" they get, but nonetheless his frequent comments about how Kim is "great man who loves his people" or how he wants people to respect him like North Koreans respect Kim make me bat an eye.

He also does have a tendency to blame the left for... like... everything, especially on Twitter, which gets old after a while.

However, I still don't think Trump is "literally Hitler". If we want to compare good ol' Donald J. to a major player in WW2, Benito Mussolini is probably a more accurate fit, though even then it's probably debatable. The obsession with making a nation return to former glory is plenty there though.

I do dislike the guy, quite a bit actually, and hoping we can dodge a second term successfully. I don't really care if the 2020 president is right or left, just that they're both not Trump and not someone else as bad as Trump.

Hawkeye10 said:

That's funny, the same people saying that we have to let in who ever wants to come saying that ICE abuses its power.

They dont want ICE to have any power.

Paying attention is always a plus.

Can you manage?

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Can you? Calling for a less discriminatory immigration system is not saying we should let everyone in. You are just spouting propaganda. Even if you found a couple people saying that, they are not representative of the majority of people that oppose Trump. Trump however is the representative of a group of people. So point a loony from his opposition all you want with a direct quote saying let anyone who wants to come, come, all I will say is, we didn't elect that loony. What's your excuse for voting for your's?

How bout try a lil honesty, and a lil less Hannity talking points.

Tres1B said:

Hm, that's... interesting.

I'm not sure if Trump necessarily wants to be a dictator as much as he wants the "honor" and "respect" they get, but nonetheless his frequent comments about how Kim is "great man who loves his people" or how he wants people to respect him like North Koreans respect Kim make me bat an eye.

He also does have a tendency to blame the left for... like... everything, especially on Twitter, which gets old after a while.

However, I still don't think Trump is "literally Hitler". If we want to compare good ol' Donald J. to a major player in WW2, Benito Mussolini is probably a more accurate fit, though even then it's probably debatable. The obsession with making a nation return to former glory is plenty there though.

I do dislike the guy, quite a bit actually, and hoping we can dodge a second term successfully. I don't really care if the 2020 president is right or left, just that they're both not Trump and not someone else as bad as Trump.

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I didn't say Trump is literally Hitler. Not every fascist was Hitler. Only Hitler was Hitler. Fascism is an ideology that anyone can ascribe to, and many people do. Like Trump supporters. Only they don't like it being called fascism. But a spade is a spade, a duck is a duck. And a Trump Supporter is a fascist.

Oh and Benito Moussalini invented fascism fyi. Like he's the dude who coined the term, defined, set it up, the whole nine. So saying he's more like Benito, is saying he's a fascist. Which is what I am saying.

ThoughtEx. said:

Can you? Calling for a less discriminatory immigration system is not saying we should let everyone in. You are just spouting propaganda. Even if you found a couple people saying that, they are not representative of the majority of people that oppose Trump. Trump however is the representative of a group of people. So point a loony from his opposition all you want with a direct quote saying let anyone who wants to come, come, all I will say is, we didn't elect that loony. What's your excuse for voting for your's?

How bout try a lil honesty, and a lil less Hannity talking points.

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The day you decide that rounding up criminals is an abuse of power is the day that you know that you have *The remainder of this post was deleted in the hopes of avoiding points*.






Thank You mods for your service!









You dont hear that enough I know.









:2wave:

ThoughtEx. said:

Can you? Calling for a less discriminatory immigration system is not saying we should let everyone in. You are just spouting propaganda. Even if you found a couple people saying that, they are not representative of the majority of people that oppose Trump. Trump however is the representative of a group of people. So point a loony from his opposition all you want with a direct quote saying let anyone who wants to come, come, all I will say is, we didn't elect that loony. What's your excuse for voting for your's?

How bout try a lil honesty, and a lil less Hannity talking points.

Click to expand...

You should know very well that open borders has become a become very popular idea with a certain sects of this society, which is new in this society, we used to be smarter...dont bother blowing up my skirt, I have seen it all before.

Have you any quality to offer?

Hawkeye10 said:

The day you decide that rounding up criminals is an abuse of power is the day that you know that you have *The remainder of this post was deleted in the hopes of avoiding points*.






Thank You mods for your service!









You dont hear that enough I know.









:2wave:

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Hmm, here we have a Trump supporter advocating for a government agency to round up anyone they see as criminals as they see fit. Regardless if it leads to human rights violations. Like they have already. What's that sound like? Oh, right, a fascist. In other words, Authoritarian Ultra Nationalist.

Next time man up, say what you're going to say. Or say nothing at all.

Hawkeye10 said:

You should know very well that open borders has become a become very popular idea with a certain sect of this society, which is new in this society, we used to be smarter...dont bother blowing up my skirt, I have seen it all before.

Have you any quality to offer?

Click to expand...

I know that Trump supporters are trying to make certain types of arguments seem like an argument for open borders. When in reality, they are arguments opposing some pretty stupid ****. Just really stupid ****. And evil to boot. Stupid Evil ****.

It's sad, when you're only defense of the indefensible is putting words in the oppositions mouth.

ThoughtEx. said:

Hmm, here we have a Trump supporter advocating for a government agency to round up anyone they see as criminals as they see fit. Regardless if it leads to human rights violations. Like they have already. What's that sound like? Oh, right, a fascist. In other words, Authoritarian Ultra Nationalist.

Next time man up, say what you're going to say. Or say nothing at all.

Click to expand...

Thinking that a society should be run by laws is fascist now you say...

Well I have been saying for awhile that the word is following the word rape into total uselessness as a result of abuse....

Hawkeye10 said:

Thinking that a society should be run by laws is fascist now you say...

Well I have been saying for awhile that the word is following the word rape into total uselessness as a result of abuse....

Click to expand...

That is not what I say, I say very specific things, in a very specific context. The fact that you have to misrepresent those contexts, shows how weak your position is.

And how desperate you are to change the subject from Trump Supporters to their opposition. Not happening.

Trump supporters are fascists. Irregardless of what anybody else is, or claims, or resembles. Trump supporters are fascists. Throwing shade elsewhere doesn't change that, doesn't make it ok, and doesn't make you look at all like anything other than a fascist trying to say "hey look over there".

independentusa said:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/fascism
Here is just one of the definitions I found, but all were about the same. TO me it sounds a lot where this country is headed with trump and the GOP, and the rise of White supremacy.

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It sounds that way to you because you are a partisan hack.

independentusa said:

I have constantly over the years, and I have been listening for a lot of years, have heard conservatives complain about the country being too socialistic. I have yet heard any complaints from the conservatives in this country about the move toward fascism in both this country and around the world. I guess if I had to chose which way is the worst, I would say fascism. Between the wealthy who control elections and the religious right who want the government to push their form of morale, I think we are headed in a very bad direction and most don't even see it coming. It is similar in the way things happened in Germany in the 30"s and it scare the hell out of me.

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What, exactly, is the difference between socialism and fascism?

ThoughtEx. said:

That is not what I say, I say very specific things, in a very specific context. The fact that you have to misrepresent those contexts, shows how weak your position is.

And how desperate you are to change the subject from Trump Supporters to their opposition. Not happening.

Trump supporters are fascists. Irregardless of what anybody else is, or claims, or resembles. Trump supporters are fascists. Throwing shade elsewhere doesn't change that, doesn't make it ok, and doesn't make you look at all like anything other than a fascist trying to say "hey look over there".

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You don't know what a fascist is.

Well the first thing we should do defining Fascism is make a distinction between a practical application of Fascism, National Socialism and Fascism. Fascism is political theory and National Socialism is a practical application of that theory. The twist in National Socialism is that it was entirely premised on Aryan purity and its prime directive was to institutionalize Aryan purity within the borders of Germany, eventually Europe and any other darned place they thought they could realistically get to.

Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce. This is very often the top line description of Fascism offered just about everywhere. What is more difficult to see is the mechanisms of Fascism if you remove the added twist that describes National Socialism. So for example, whether one wants to believe it or not, Privatization is one of the implements of Fascism because while every description I have ever read puts "control of industry and commerce" after "dictatorial power and forcible suppression of opposition" you simply cannot get to the first two from something like Western Liberalism without control of industry and commerce and it turns out that you need corporate allies to pull that off. The Fascist needs to be able to hold the reins of commerce tightly to him and the best way to do that as it turns out is outsource specific functions to close allies that then make buckets of money while supporting the Fascist's reach for dictatorship. Much like Privatization the other tools of Fascist implementation tend to be more subtle than those of Communism but they stand on firmer ground which makes Fascism harder to fight off. You slide into Fascism.

Fascism therefore is really a more dangerous threat than Communism. Communism falls apart as soon as step 1 of any communist enterprise is completed and Step 1 hits you with a sledgehammer, nothing subtle there. It might not be known generally that the whole thing has already fallen apart, but it does. Step 1 is nationalization of all the country's assets. So far, so good. The problem is that after step 1 you have to go on to step 2 which is reallocation of those assets and there has never been a country with significant resources that does not muck up step 2. The resources are reallocated by the same corrupt and biased means that were there before step 1. While the resources will not likely be reallocated to the same entities that had them before step 1 they are reallocated in the same corrupt way and once the general population figures out that they have just been sold a bill of goods, Communism fails at least if it is attempted in a country with ample resources that could be functioning within a Western Liberal model.

There are very few truly Communist countries left in the world. They are for the most part now operating wholly as authoritarian regimes while still defining themselves as Communist. Last I looked I think Vietnam was really about the only truly still Communist country left. Don't quote me on that one. There might be one or two more and I just have not gone and looked lately.

Hawkeye10 said:

Thinking that a society should be run by laws is fascist now you say...

Well I have been saying for awhile that the word is following the word rape into total uselessness as a result of abuse....

Click to expand...

The separation of children from their parents was not a law, it was an executive order by the president, even though trump keeps saying it was a Dem law.

ThoughtEx. said:

Fascism is authoritarian ultra nationalism, with it's focus being on putting down the opposition and control of the economy. It uses populism to come to power and unify, and then obfuscate it's totalitarian agenda.

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete. And believe in having the society controlled by one party. To be better prepared for war and economic troubles. They believe in a strong leader with complete control to forge national unity and maintain a stable society.

They favor a mixed economy, that focus on protectionist and interventionist policies.

I know what fascism is, and I am right now not only describing fascism, but Trump's political platform.

Maybe, if everyone is calling something fascist, it's not because they don't know what it means, maybe it's because it's actually ****ing fascist. Ever stop to consider that one?

Click to expand...

LowDown said:

You don't know what a fascist is.

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Except that I started off defining it. Feel smart? Feel, like you showed me? "You don't know what fascism is"

A Trump supporter is a fascist, going by the definition. Trump supporters check off every box. But, can't call them what they are, because they don't know what a fascist is, they just know it's a bad word. And they don't think they're bad, so everyone must be lying. And heck if they don't what fascist is, no one else does, just one of those indefinable things.

Except that it's not indefinable, and no matter how much Trump supporters cry out "YOu don't know what that means, you over use, it's a word that has no mean now.", won't change the fact that they are fascists. That they fit the definition.

ThoughtEx. said:

Except that I started off defining it. Feel smart? Feel, like you showed me? "You don't know what fascism is"

A Trump supporter is a fascist, going by the definition. Trump supporters check off every box. But, can't call them what they are, because they don't know what a fascist is, they just know it's a bad word. And they don't think they're bad, so everyone must be lying. And heck if they don't what fascist is, no one else does, just one of those indefinable things.

Except that it's not indefinable, and no matter how much Trump supporters cry out "YOu don't know what that means, you over use, it's a word that has no mean now.", won't change the fact that they are fascists. That they fit the definition.

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No, your definition of fascism is not correct. Or, that is to say, it's only partly correct.

You have defined it the way Marxists did, by emphasizing the characteristics that differentiate it from Marxism while ignoring all the things that make it similar to Marxism. This was Soviet propaganda.

In fact, fascism is much more similar to Marxism than it is different. When you add Stalinism, with its militarism, racism, and nationalism, it's practically identical.

Fascism of the Italian and German variety both originated from the left politically. Each added distinctive elements according to their culture..

You mis-characterize Trump's policies. There is not a scintilla of evidence that Trump is inclined to authoritarianism. The only evidence you have of that is that he signs executive orders you don't like, but that's well within his Constitutional authority as President.

America has the most powerful military in the world by far. America has been militaristic since WWII. Americans are very proud of their nation. Americans have always been nationalistic. As for you guys, I don't know what you are.

ThoughtEx. said:

Except that I started off defining it. Feel smart? Feel, like you showed me? "You don't know what fascism is"

A Trump supporter is a fascist, going by the definition. Trump supporters check off every box. But, can't call them what they are, because they don't know what a fascist is, they just know it's a bad word. And they don't think they're bad, so everyone must be lying. And heck if they don't what fascist is, no one else does, just one of those indefinable things.

Except that it's not indefinable, and no matter how much Trump supporters cry out "YOu don't know what that means, you over use, it's a word that has no mean now.", won't change the fact that they are fascists. That they fit the definition.

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I could be missing your meaning but I think what you are referring to is what I refer to as sliding into Fascism.

So lets quickly go back to my example of why Privatization plays a major role in the Fascist's effort to "take over". If the discussion is about Privatization here in the US you are going to hear arguments in support about shrinking the role of government and spinning them off to the private sector because the private sector "always does it better".
1) the private sector does not always do it better. "The private sector always does it better" is patently absurd but it sounds nice rolling off the tongue
2) shrinking government just for the sake of doing it, for its own sake with no actual defined benefit is STUPID. Yet how many times do we actually hear that argument.

I would bet real money that there are few Americans you would run into that know that Privatization while not always a tool of the Fascist is always a tool the Fascist uses. He MUST gain control of commerce or nothing else he is going to try to do to achieve his goals is possible. Nationalization is the tool of the Communist while Privatization is the tool of the Fascist and SON OF GUN in this one discussion we gain a better understanding for why Communism should always sit way over on the Left hand side of these graph lines of the Political Spectrum with Fascism way to the Right of that same graph line.

If Americans do not understand how Privatization can be used, how can they know or even suspect that their honestly held opinions no matter how obtuse are not only based on incomplete information but dangerous as all get out. That is not to say that there are those that don't know exactly what Privatization can represent.

independentusa said:

I have constantly over the years, and I have been listening for a lot of years, have heard conservatives complain about the country being too socialistic. I have yet heard any complaints from the conservatives in this country about the move toward fascism in both this country and around the world. I guess if I had to chose which way is the worst, I would say fascism. Between the wealthy who control elections and the religious right who want the government to push their form of morale, I think we are headed in a very bad direction and most don't even see it coming. It is similar in the way things happened in Germany in the 30"s and it scare the hell out of me.

Click to expand...

Well, hopefully the Progressive Left and their thugs don't succeed in their efforts to resurrect something akin to the former National Socialist German Workers' Party but given the Brownshirt like tactics they've been displaying of late towards any opposition, the trend is not looking good.

LowDown said:

No, your definition of fascism is not correct. Or, that is to say, it's only partly correct.

You have defined it the way Marxists did, by emphasizing the characteristics that differentiate it from Marxism while ignoring all the things that make it similar to Marxism. This was Soviet propaganda.

In fact, fascism is much more similar to Marxism than it is different. When you add Stalinism, with its militarism, racism, and nationalism, it's practically identical.

Fascism of the Italian and German variety both originated from the left politically. Each added distinctive elements according to their culture..

You mis-characterize Trump's policies. There is not a scintilla of evidence that Trump is inclined to authoritarianism. The only evidence you have of that is that he signs executive orders you don't like, but that's well within his Constitutional authority as President.

America has the most powerful military in the world by far. America has been militaristic since WWII. Americans are very proud of their nation. Americans have always been nationalistic. As for you guys, I don't know what you are.

Click to expand...

All of what you just typed is nonsense.

This is the problem with Trump supporters, they are superficial, they look at the label. The label is the important thing to them. If I had a cow, and called it a horse. They'd say, that's a weird horse.

If I had a far right wing ideology, and put socialism in the name. They would think it's a form of socialism.

They don't understand, that the label, sometimes doesn't reflect what the thing actually is.

That people that realize they are about to do some shady ****, find the opposite of them, and label themselves as that.

Fascism is a far far right ideology. Trump supporters check off every single box. Whether it was left or right, doesn't matter, it is what it is, and Trump supporters fit that definition. To a T.

MrMike said:

Well, hopefully the Progressive Left and their thugs don't succeed in their efforts to resurrect something akin to the former National Socialist German Workers' Party but given the Brownshirt like tactics they've been displaying of late towards any opposition, the trend is not looking good.

Click to expand...

The National Socialist German Worker's Party's prime directive was the institutionalization of Aryan Purity. I don't see how the Progressive Left has a vehicle that is anything like that, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST. Stop beating around the bush. What do you mean by "something akin to".

jnug said:

I could be missing your meaning but I think what you are referring to is what I refer to as sliding into Fascism.

So lets quickly go back to my example of why Privatization plays a major role in the Fascist's effort to "take over". If the discussion is about Privatization here in the US you are going to hear arguments in support about shrinking the role of government and spinning them off to the private sector because the private sector "always does it better".
1) the private sector does not always do it better. "The private sector always does it better" is patently absurd but it sounds nice rolling off the tongue
2) shrinking government just for the sake of doing it, for its own sake with no actual defined benefit is STUPID. Yet how many times do we actually hear that argument.

I would bet real money that there are few Americans you would run into that know that Privatization while not always a tool of the Fascist is always a tool the Fascist uses. He MUST gain control of commerce or nothing else he is going to try to do to achieve his goals is possible. Nationalization is the tool of the Communist while Privatization is the tool of the Fascist and SON OF GUN in this one discussion we gain a better understanding for why Communism should always sit way over on the Left hand side of these graph lines of the Political Spectrum with Fascism way to the Right of that same graph line.

If Americans do not understand how Privatization can be used, how can they know or even suspect that their honestly held opinions no matter how obtuse are not only based on incomplete information but dangerous as all get out. That is not to say that there are those that don't know exactly what Privatization can represent.

Click to expand...

I covered that in my definition under the part about protectionist and interventionist policy via a mixed economy. Protectionist is things like, "I'm bringing back coal jobs, were bringing back coal." And interventionist is like "We need to do something about Social Security, it needs to be done right, by people like me who really know how to handle money."

Trump's economic plans fit the bill completely. He's not sliding into anything. He's a fascist. His supporters are fascists. What the slide is, is whether he succeeds in making that fascism the status quo after he's gone.

independentusa said:

I have constantly over the years, and I have been listening for a lot of years, have heard conservatives complain about the country being too socialistic. I have yet heard any complaints from the conservatives in this country about the move toward fascism in both this country and around the world. I guess if I had to chose which way is the worst, I would say fascism. Between the wealthy who control elections and the religious right who want the government to push their form of morale, I think we are headed in a very bad direction and most don't even see it coming. It is similar in the way things happened in Germany in the 30"s and it scare the hell out of me.

Click to expand...

I think we've been headed down the road of fascism for quite some time. With our Infinity War, Big Brother, Bigger Government, Big Spending, Big Deficit, Corporate-State government and the solidification of the Republocrat Oligarchy. We've begun to establish our new Aristocracy as well. This isn't new, it didn't start with Trump, he's just continuing down the road already established.

ThoughtEx. said:

I covered that in my definition under the part about protectionist and interventionist policy via a mixed economy. Protectionist is things like, "I'm bringing back coal jobs, were bringing back coal." And interventionist is like "We need to do something about Social Security, it needs to be done right, by people like me who really know how to handle money."

Trump's economic plans fit the bill completely. He's not sliding into anything. He's a fascist. His supporters are fascists. What the slide is, is whether he succeeds in making that fascism the status quo after he's gone.

Click to expand...

It is absolutely true that one of the goals of Fascism is to become a self contained economy, through things like Protectionism and even things like "bringing back coal" as I think we still have the largest coal reserves in the world. I agree that Trump is not "sliding" into anything. Sorry to tell some in his camp but Trump is as full on Fascist as it gets. But I would be willing to bet that there are regular citizens in this country that do not recognize these policies, Privatization, Protectionism, endeavors to create a self contained economy and do not realize that we are by degrees and on a much accelerated pace since Trump sliding into Fascism.

For example I consider things like Privatizing Prisons and and charging inmates for their incarceration Fascist policies and I am sure there are some proponents of same that know they are Fascist as heck. I would also be willing to bet that there are mass numbers of American citizens that are totally oblivious to the link to Fascism.

I see a whole lot of open support of Socialism, I've not seen anyone proudly call themselves fascists in America.

ThoughtEx. said:

All of what you just typed is nonsense.

This is the problem with Trump supporters, they are superficial, they look at the label. The label is the important thing to them. If I had a cow, and called it a horse. They'd say, that's a weird horse.

If I had a far right wing ideology, and put socialism in the name. They would think it's a form of socialism.

They don't understand, that the label, sometimes doesn't reflect what the thing actually is.

That people that realize they are about to do some shady ****, find the opposite of them, and label themselves as that.

Fascism is a far far right ideology. Trump supporters check off every single box. Whether it was left or right, doesn't matter, it is what it is, and Trump supporters fit that definition. To a T.

Click to expand...

You need a primer on fascism. Here's one: