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Trump's executive order only protects against family separation for 20 days

Harshaw said:
Yeah, that's why I asked the OP for a long-term solution.

I have a feeling that's something nobody wants to be pinned down to, though.
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I still think a good compromise would be if they are seeking asylum, detain the whole family together while their request is being processed. If there are children present, at the end of 20 days escort the family across the border with directions to the nearest embassy or consulate.
 
Moon said:
I still think a good compromise would be if they are seeking asylum, detain the whole family together while their request is being processed. If there are children present, at the end of 20 days escort the family across the border with directions to the nearest embassy or consulate.
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That's just a pinprick on the larger question.

What I want to know is what the long-term, over-arching solution is.
 
Harshaw said:
That's just a pinprick on the larger question.

What I want to know is what the long-term, over-arching solution is.
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One of things that has stuck out to me with this recent focus on immigration is that people keep saying the system is under a ton of stress. Why not put more resources towards immigration then? Surely, that would be a more reasonable solution than taking people's children. The long term solution is different depending on which party you are a part of. I would bet that most Democrats would support processing and a path towards citizenship after, while most Republicans would rather people just not come here. I understand that the usual Republican stance is more about supporting legal immigration, but that can take years and if people are truly desperate I just don't see that as a viable option.
 
Zyphlin said:
This is hilarious.

You have anti-Trumpers demanding that Trump can do something about family separations with the stroke of his pen.

He says no he can't, a low disallows him from doing that.

They go yes you can! You can end children being taken from their parents!

Trump relents and signs an EO calling for no more separations.

You then have anti-Trumpers going "See! Trump lied! He said a democrat passed law kept him from ending family separations but he just did an EO"

Then news agencies immediately start talking about the very law he claimed he couldn't override, suggesting that his EO wouldn't stand up against the law (Just like he said)

Then you have anti-trumpers going "Ha! What a buffoon! He didn't realize the law would stop him from fixing it!"


[]
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Different people said different things. Each member of a "side", whether you define it or someone else does, is not responsible for the statements of everyone else on that side. Do you have at least one specific person in mind who said each of those things?




Zyphlin said:
All of said obliviousness being justified in their heads because while they're CLAIMING to give a **** about the Kids, and CLAIMING to be care about family separation, and CLAIMING to not want children pulled away from their parents, what they really want is for Trumps general immigration policy with regards to illegal entries to be ended and they're simply using the children as a cudgel. So no, they won't pass legislation to help keep kids from being separated, because the separation is useful to their goal. And no, they're not going to change their messaging from "Trump needs to end this practice of children being separated" to "Trump needs to end his detainment of people crossing illegally" because that's not as good of a political bludgeon as screaming "BUT THINK OF THE CHILDREN". And no, they're not going to have any self awareness that they mocked him for saying a law kept him from doing it, then claimed vindication when he did it despite the law, then claim how dumb he was when he didn't realize the law kept him from doing it.
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First, you're continuing the pattern of mashing a bunch of statements from different people (if in fact they were made) together and then acting like each member of a "side" you've defined has said each of those things.

Second, you're simply assuming that "what they really want is for Trumps general immigration policy with regards to illegal entries to be ended and they're simply using the children as a cudgel".

Different people have said different things, with different motivations, and also happen to have different desires as to what immigration policy should look like. It's far too easy to act like the "other side" is fungible in order to launch an allegation (be it hypocrisy, insincerity, ill motive, etc), but people are not fungible.

Zyphlin said:
The usage of the children as a means of deterrence by the Trump administration is abysmal and distasteful to the extreme. The denial of people attempting to legitimately claim asylum without any illegal action on their part, or the detainment of those who are doing such, is disgraceful and worthy of utter and complete contempt and absolutely should be looked into. Trump signing an EO he should absolutely KNOW is not in line with the law is a horrendous action worthy of scorn and derision. The inability to efficiently and with extreme accuracy pair the children they separated back up with the parents granted asylum is a horrendous government administration and a blight on any agency tied with it. However, I'm not going to sit here and act like it's only that one particular side acting in a pathetically political and dishonest fashion in all this.
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Yeah, it is abysmal and distasteful to the extreme.

But we went over this yesterday. There is no law requiring him to detain these families, whether together or separate, and in fact a court previously ordered Obama to release families he'd detained together in light of the Flores settlement. And if someone you labeled "anti-Trumper" mentioned that, they were probably pointing out that Trump was lying when he claimed otherwise. Nothing to do with a cudgel.

In fact, most people here who you'd probably put in your "anti-Trumper" category have been consistently against the pointless separation of children. If some of them are now making a few political jabs at Trump, they don't speak for all nor represent any nefarious group intent.
 
ludin said:
It takes a congressional act to change the law. the president doens't have the power to change the law.
see separation of powers.

learn how our legal system works. understand how our government works.
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What does that have to do with a House Majority Leader only willing to bring bills to the floor that "he believes" the President will sign. The only way to find out what a President will sign is to pass legislation and put it on his desk.
 
Zyphlin said:
Like so many things, there is a middle ground that can be found here. There are reasonable and rational solutions that could actually deal with much of the child separation issues and the child detainment issues while at the same time accepting that the Trump administration, having justly won the executive, have the rightful and reasonable authority to enforce our immigration laws strictly and will continue to do so. However, neither side wants to do that because the staunch Trump and anti-Trump sides care more about their overall immigration agenda than they do the actual plight of the children despite all their BS to the contrary.
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How is someone supposed to get to the middle ground with you if they generally oppose Trump's policy and presidency? In this very post, you have assumed that they said a whole lot of contradictory things as some clever scheme to use children against Trump's overall immigration policy.

And - I really wish I didn't have to keep reminding people of this - the only reason anyone was talking about this is because Trump started the separation policy so he'd have something to trade with democrats for more of the things he wanted (apparently the wall). I detailed that in multiple quotes from the admin yesterday as did others.
 
MrPeanut said:
One of things that has stuck out to me with this recent focus on immigration is that people keep saying the system is under a ton of stress. Why not put more resources towards immigration then? Surely, that would be a more reasonable solution than taking people's children. The long term solution is different depending on which party you are a part of. I would bet that most Democrats would support processing and a path towards citizenship after, while most Republicans would rather people just not come here. I understand that the usual Republican stance is more about supporting legal immigration, but that can take years and if people are truly desperate I just don't see that as a viable option.
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More resources may help, but just throwing money at it doesn't really change anything.

I'm not looking for a Republican or Democrat solution here. I'm looking for a viable, long-term plan. Everyone says they don't want an open border. What do they want? And by that, I don't mean meaningless things like "I want something that works" or "I want something that everyone can live with" or even "I want a secure border and better enforcement."

What specifically is broken, what needs fixing, and how is it done? Nuts and bolts. Specifics. A real, operable framework.

It's really easy to kibbutz other people. Not so easy to come up with something yourself. But that's what I'm asking for.
 
Harshaw said:
That's just a pinprick on the larger question.

What I want to know is what the long-term, over-arching solution is.
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I'd like to see a streamlined process for people wanting to become citizens, and a robust seasonal guest worker program for people who want to come here to work for a specified period of time.
 
Harshaw said:
More resources may help, but just throwing money at it doesn't really change anything.

I'm not looking for a Republican or Democrat solution here. I'm looking for a viable, long-term plan. Everyone says they don't want an open border. What do they want? And by that, I don't mean meaningless things like "I want something that works" or "I want something that everyone can live with" or even "I want a secure border and better enforcement."

What specifically is broken, what needs fixing, and how is it done? Nuts and bolts. Specifics. A real, operable framework.

It's really easy to kibbutz other people. Not so easy to come up with something yourself. But that's what I'm asking for.
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The main problem is that there isn't one answer because each party has a different goal.
 
MrPeanut said:
The main problem is that there isn't one answer because each party has a different goal.
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I don't care what the goals of any party are. I'm asking for your answer.

Most pertinently to THIS thread, I'm asking for the answer of the OP.
 
Moon said:
I'd like to see a streamlined process for people wanting to become citizens, and a robust seasonal guest worker program for people who want to come here to work for a specified period of time.
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Still pretty vague.
 
Harshaw said:
I don't care what the goals of any party are. I'm asking for your answer.

Most pertinently to THIS thread, I'm asking for the answer of the OP.
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If I had an answer that pleased everyone Harshaw, I would put it forth. But no such solution exists.

Until Congress acts, I wish the administration would return things to the way they were before Sessions changed the procedure (from civil to criminal) in April.

Also, the already separated children need to be reunited with their families. Trumps EO doesn't accomplish that.

What is your brilliant solution Harshaw?
 
Rogue Valley said:
If I had an answer that pleased everyone Harshaw, I would put it forth. But no such solution exists.

Until Congress acts, I wish the administration would return things to the way they were before Sessions changed the procedure (from civil to criminal) in April.

Also, the already separated children need to be reunited with their families. Trumps EO doesn't accomplish that.

What is your brilliant solution Harshaw?
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I didn't ask for anything that "pleased everyone." Nothing will ever please everyone, and that's never the goal. I asked for an answer, whatever that is.

I didn't say I had a solution, brilliant or otherwise. But I'm also not starting a dozen threads a day lambasting problems and never offering solutions.

Kibbutzing is a lot easier than coming up with something yourself, isn't it?
 
Moon said:
Oh well, best I've got at the moment.
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I don't mean it as a slight. It's a complex issue requiring complex analysis. At least you're willing to go as far as you did.
 
Harshaw said:
I didn't say I had a solution, brilliant or otherwise. But I'm also not starting a dozen threads a day lambasting problems and never offering solutions.
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There is no injunction anywhere that one must have a solution to a problem in order to publicize the problem. That's just crazy. You didn't bitch about a zillion negative Obama threads.

There is no limit here at DP concerning new threads. I checked. You can elect to click on something or not. That is purely your decision and your choice.

No one forces you to open this thread or any other here at DP. You can only enter threads by choice so if there's a problem, it's entirely on you Harshaw.
 
Rogue Valley said:
There is no injunction anywhere that one must have a solution to a problem in order to publicize the problem. That's just crazy. You didn't bitch about a zillion negative Obama threads.

There is no limit here at DP concerning new threads. I checked. You can elect to click on something or not. That is purely your decision and your choice.

No one forces you to open this thread or any other here at DP. You can only enter threads by choice so if there's a problem, it's entirely on you Harshaw.
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Looks, if it upsets you so much that someone challenges you, you shouldn't post on a debate site. This isn't a blog or a social media page. If you make a thread, people get to take to you task on it. That's the entire purpose of this site. You don't get to decide how anyone reacts.

If you're constantly saying "that's WRONG! That's WRONG! That's WRONG!" it's a perfectly natural and legitimate thing to ask you "OK, then what's RIGHT?" Do you give any thought to it at all?

If you don't have an answer, you're doing nothing but empty complaining at best -- or, more cynically, you want to be in a position to say, no matter what anyone does, that they're wrong.

At the very least, what principles do you stand for? Do you actually believe in something positive and constructive, or are you just anti? Do you even know?
 
What has finally been exposed if anybody cares is the staggering incompetence of this administration. Frankly it has been running around with its pants around its ankles for months. But this one takes the cake.

They devised the zero tolerance "stroke of genius" as a means to find a new set of hostages to use in an effort to pass draconian immigration law. Let me remind you all that Trump set out his four pillars of immigration law and claimed on national TV that he would sign anything that covered those bases. The Senate put together just such a bill which got all the way to 54 votes in the Senate before Trump put his foot down because apparently he had not cleared said 4 pillars standard with Steven Miller. That led Sen Lindsey Graham to muse again on national TV "I just don't know where we go from here".

So now grand wizard Jeff Sessions and Trump cook up this next fiasco of "zero tolerance" not spending a single minute apparently trying to understand the political, moral or legal consequences of prosecuting every single person on a misdemeanor offense on the one hand while pushing those very same people away from an opportunity to seek asylum through Ports of Entry. That is what both forced the parents away from POE's and forced the government to take the kids when they were arrested illegally trying to enter.

That single decision, made entirely by this administration and without a moments consideration for a coordinated effort to deal with the consequences has blown up in their faces just as it should have. Now we have millions of dollars being spend erecting tent cities, hiring contractors, moving kids and worse toddlers and infants around the country all while they cry for their parents while at the same time being unwilling to show the American public what is happening particularly to the girls, toddlers and infants. Do they actually think we will believe it is some accident that the only kids they will show us is the boys that have been captured up as they were being stewarded across the border by smugglers?

Our government, OUR GOVERNMENT, does even have the balls to show us what is happening to the kids, girls, toddlers and infants that have been split up not by the choice of parents handing their kids to smugglers but by the choice of the US government as a consequence of instituting a zero tolerance policy thus eliminating prosecutorial discretion over 100% of these misdemeanor offenses.

Now we have kids that have already been separated from their parents by the will of the US government. We have kids that will be damaged for a lifetime and don't start with me about snowflakes. We are the snowflakes. These are kids, toddlers and infants for God sake.

We do not even have a process for reuniting these kids with their parents. Remember, these are not parents that handed their kids to smugglers! We now have no process designed to reunite them. We have moved these kids all over creation which is why some airlines are no longer willing to move them anywhere!

Seventeen parents who were supposed to be charged this morning in Federal District Court in McAllen Tx were not charged....PROSECUTORIAL DISCRETION....the exact thing Trump claimed he would not end while signing his idiot EO yesterday. The government actually cannot even come up with a rational for that. It can only seemingly muse that temporarily prosecutorial discretion has been restored as if they were on the outside of the government as we are and just don't know what is going on.

Here is another one to mull over. It appears that those 17 parents were not immediately turned over to ICE agents. At least I have not been able to find out what the heck happened to them after the prosecutor did not charge them and there was no reporting that they were turned over to ICE agents. So that means that the government did not feel compelled to turn them over. Why would that be? In all likelihood that is because they know they are going to go looking for their kids which brings them right back to the government. So think about that. Part of Trumps argument is that these parents just don't care about their kids. But the government knows they care. The government is counting on their caring because the government is counting on them to throw themselves right back into the system in an effort to find their kids.

This is most incompetent effort I have ever seen by any government not even taking account the rational for it. It's execution has been a colossal failure that makes Bush/Katrina pale by comparison. We will be paying this bill in real dollars for a very long time both for the actual cost and for the civil liabilities that will accrue FOR NOTHING, for no benefit to anybody including the dingdongs that believe in the draconian immigration law Trump/MIller/Sessions are trying to coax out of the Congress. Neither bill will pass.
 
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The solution is simple. Return to what Obama did after being ordered to release detained families by a court because of the Flores settlement:

Do the courts require family separation?

Absolutely not — despite the claims of GOP leadership to the contrary. Both House Speaker Paul Ryan and Senator Chuck Grassley have blamed family separation on the courts, specifically a decades-old court agreement (known as the Flores settlement) which established protections for children to prevent their indefinite detention in unlicensed facilities. Getting rid of the protections in the Flores settlement would only further the administration’s goal of being able to indefinitely imprison families. But ending family separation doesn’t require family prisons. The Trump administration knows full well that alternatives exist — because it went out of its way to sabotage them.

In June 2017, the administration ended the Family Case Management Program, which allowed families to be placed into a program, together, that connected them with a case manager and legal orientation that ensured they understood how to apply for asylum and attend immigration court proceedings. The program had a 99.6 percent appearance rate at immigration court hearings for those enrolled in the program. It’s not only a more humane alternative to family prisons; it’s far less costly for taxpayers. Despite that success, the administration chose to end this program only a few months after it was first reported that Kelly — then-Secretary of Homeland Security — was considering family separation as a deterrent strategy.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/immigrant...and-detention/fact-checking-family-separation

Also,

https://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2017/06/ice-shuts-down-program-for-asylum-seekers/529887/






And before there are any biased jabs, remember, the ACLU doesn't defend based on ideology but due to perceived violations of a constitutional right. They'll defend a fascist march just as much as a communist march, if someone tries denying a permit based on content. Etc.




There's no law requiring that these people be detained.
 
The Department of Justice on Thursday asked a federal district court to modify a decades-old court settlement that prohibits the federal government from keeping children in immigration detention centers for more than 20 days, following President Trump's decision to end the practice of separating migrant children from their parents who cross the U.S. border illegally.
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http://thehill.com/regulation/administration/393515-doj-files-request-to-modify-the-flores-agreement

I spect the answer will be no, as the courts pressure the government to go back to catch and release.
 
One bill already failed to get out of the House today and the other will likely fail tomorrow. If it does get out of the House it stands no chance of passing the Senate and well it should not. Neither bill was in the best interests of the country.

Where are the Senate and House Committees that should have leapt into action in order to resolve the immediate issues and work on a long term solution. But NOOOOOO! The GOP controls both Houses of Congress and they have no interest in even discussing solutions that would be in the best interests of the country. They want the ideological end results that they want and they just do not care about anything else even to the point of helping Trump's throw his costly and damaging monkey wrench into the gears. You think the results of bad immigration law was a problem? Wait till you get a taste of the downstream consequences of this mess. Heck its not even downstream. Its right here, right now. It will just continue to be downstream, haunting us in cost and loss for years.
 
Zyphlin said:
...Like so many things, there is a middle ground that can be found here. There are reasonable and rational solutions that could actually deal with much of the child separation issues and the child detainment issues while at the same time accepting that the Trump administration, having justly won the executive, have the rightful and reasonable authority to enforce our immigration laws strictly and will continue to do so. However, neither side wants to do that because the staunch Trump and anti-Trump sides care more about their overall immigration agenda than they do the actual plight of the children despite all their BS to the contrary.
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I think child abuse is anything but hilarious. I find that independents tend to blame both sides as often as the far ends blame each other on any given issue. But in many cases, there is no middle ground. Abortion and gay marriage for example.

In this case you lean right by claiming that the lowlife is being reasonable when he orders the splitting up of families. As you say, he has the right to order strict enforcement of immigration laws, just like he has the right to strictly enforce laws he opposes. I've yet to hear about him cracking down on employers hiring undocumented workers, tax cheats, corporate polluters and police abuse.

If you actually believe that the Dems care more about their agenda than the children our immoral president is abusing, you should really reconsider your independent claim...
 
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