Is there a law that requires families to be separated at the border?

OscarLevant · Jun 22, 2018

Sabre said:
You keep putting forth that it is a misdemeanor to enter the US illegally and I am sure I have corrected you on this before - BUT - once again..

This is covered by U.S. Code › Title 8 › Chapter 12 › Subchapter II › Part VIII › § 1325

This is the penalty for illegal entry defined there.

Do your frickin' due diligence, don't do it half assed. You find one little clip that suits your agenda, and you are happy.

Well, that's not good enough for me. Okay......

6 months is given to misdemeanors, and it is a sentence is rarely given for misdemeanors. Before Trump, it was NEVER given. (afaik)

Is it a Crime to Enter The U.S. Illegally? - AllLaw.com

...This is considered a misdemeanor under federal law (18 U.S.C.A. § 3559).

Here is the actual text of the above citation:

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOD...1-title18-partII-chap227-subchapA-sec3559.htm

7) six months or less but more than thirty days, as a Class B misdemeanor;

Whatever it is you think you are correcting, apparently it is you who need correction.

Your misunderstanding is the phrase "federal crime", which is inclusive of misdemeanors, which is technically a "crime".

You saw the phrase 'federal crime' and you went giddy.

But 'crime' or 'criminal' is also used as a loaded term.

Use them carefully, accurately, and in proper context, or you'll be called on by those with sharp pens.

See, funny thing about context, it goes something like this:

People do not usually associate "criminal" with misdemeanors, they usually associate it with felonies.

So don't get technical when it comes to moms and dads fleeing persecution to protect children.

OscarLevant · Jun 22, 2018

CLAX1911 said:
I hate to break it to you but I don't care how you feel about Donald Trump.

You can tell me he eats puppies and sacrifices sheep to Heathen gods. You can appeal to the majority you can appeal to history. None of this is an argument. They are pathetic appeals to emotion.

The fact of the matter is people who cross the border illegally are committing crimes our government has all the right in the world to prosecute them and yes sometimes Prosecuting people mean separating them from their children.

You're entitled to your opinion I don't agree with it. He is using the law prosecute criminals.

And we wonder why these other leading Republicans lost the nomination.

Rage and cry and scream about bigotry all you want I don't care about bigotry.

I care about the laws of our land being enforced. We cannot afford to import the entire third world.

If that makes me a bigot or on the wrong side of your prediction of what history will remember of this I don't care.

I believe Prosecuting and deporting illegal immigrants is more important than how you view me.

This issue is NOT about deportation, that is a general immigration issue. This is about not returning kids to moms and dads. That is what this is all about.

Sane people do not consider a misdemeanor as a crime worthy of losing your child forever.

The maximum sentence is 6 months, and before Trump, first time border crossers were never prosecuted, let alone taking their kids away. they were simply deported.

You don't care, and the reason you don't care is that you are a heartless, cruel, inhumane person. Yes, you are a bigot, that is certain, you even admit it. If these were white kids, Trump would not be doing this, nor would we be having this argument.

Immigration, despite all of this, has been down way down since obama. Farmers are having trouble getting their produce to market because of all of this treatment of the last few years.

Your fears are unwarranted, America is not becoming a third world country, you are fear mongering and using that to justify irrational and unspeakable cruelty. There is nothing more traumatic for both a child and parent to lose that child, and the current administration has crushed 2300 families, many kids are lost in the system, with no way to bring moms dads and kids back together. HHS secretary is incompetent.

These facts are coming to light, and the public will be made known, and the world will see what Trump as done, and he will pay for it.

OscarLevant · Jun 22, 2018

CLAX1911 said:
this isn't about that it's about people illegally entering our country and if you view that as a crime then you can't sit here and tell me that criminals shouldn't be separated from their children.

No, this is not about illegal immigration, that is a separate issue, it's being worked on ion congress.

What this is about is this:

Sane people do not consider it a just punishment to take a parent's child away forever for a misdemeanor.

While a misdemeanor is technically a crime, most people associate crime with felonies, not misdemeanors -- this is why the Constitution
allows for impeaching a President for "crimes and misdemeanors" wherefore if they were one and the same, the constitution wouldn't have
made the distinction. They are only the same on a technical level. But not of importance or sentencing.

Moreover, a first time crosser is a class B misdemeanor, not even a class A, and you want to take their kids away forever?

Oh, you do want to give them back, you say? Well, guess what. HHS currently has no coordination mechanism to do this. Many are lost in the system with no way to find the parents, and millions have been donated to a private effort to bring the kids and parents together, and they are talking about their problems in this efforts, and the horror stories.

Moreover, all the first ladies, repub leaders in congress and the senate, disagree with you. Additionally, Trumps own caucus have forced him to rescind taking kids away.

The PR Flap is swelling, and the truth of the horror stories are coming to light, and Trump will pay for this.

CLAX1911 · Jun 22, 2018

OscarLevant said:
This issue is NOT about deportation, that is a general immigration issue. This is about not returning kids to moms and dads. That is what this is all about.

bologna that's about when Trump is in office and this happens it's terrible but no one give a crap when it happened during Obama's term

Sane people do not consider a misdemeanor as a crime worthy of losing your child forever.

that isn't what's happening.

The maximum sentence is 6 months,

I would be perfectly happy with them ruining the sentence if the guilty were deported.

and before Trump, first time border crossers were never prosecuted,

so it's Trump's fault that his predecessors were negligent and derelict in their duties?

let alone taking their kids away. they were simply deported.

nobody's taking their children away. They are simply being held while the parents are processed and whether or not they deserve Asylum. Once it's all over if they're granted Asylum can go pick up their kids if they're deported they can pick them up on the way out.

You don't care, and the reason you don't care is that you are a heartless, cruel, inhumane person. Yes, you are a bigot, that is certain, you even admit it. If these were white kids, Trump would not be doing this, nor would we be having this argument.

well some of them are white kids Hispanics are generally a mix between Europeans and the native population.

I don't care if you call me names.

Immigration, despite all of this, has been down way down since obama.

immigration has no bearing on this I really don't care if people want to immigrate here. If they do I will come them.

This is all about illegal immigration which is a very different thing.

Farmers are having trouble getting their produce to market because of all of this treatment of the last few years.

last few years how many? Do you know how long this has been going on?

Your fears are unwarranted, America is not becoming a third world country, you are fear mongering and using that to justify irrational and unspeakable cruelty.

all I have said is that illegal aliens should be prosecuted and deported.

There is nothing more traumatic for both a child and parent to lose that child,

I agree parents who sneak into our country with their children should be ashamed of themselves for traumatizing their children.

and the current administration has crushed 2300 families, many kids are lost in the system, with no way to bring moms dads and kids back together. HHS secretary is incompetent.

or more likely their unaccompanied minors that crossed the border and I'm sorry to tell you these housing situations have been around long before Donald Trump in the previous administration broke up millions of families.

Why is it all the sudden a problem you didn't care 2 years ago.

These facts are coming to light, and the public will be made known, and the world will see what Trump as done, and he will pay for it.

what facts oh you've done this call me a poo poo head and present untruths.

CLAX1911 · Jun 22, 2018

OscarLevant said:
No, this is not about illegal immigration,

Yes it is.

CLAX1911 · Jun 22, 2018

Nickyjo said:
False alternatives. In an emergency situation like this, you set up adequate facilities,

well the facilities were adequate up until this manufactured outrage. You realize these facilities have been there for a number of years before even anybody thought about Donald Trump as president.

Sabre · Jun 22, 2018

OscarLevant said:
Do your frickin' due diligence, don't do it half assed. You find one little clip that suits your agenda, and you are happy.

Well, that's not good enough for me. Okay......

6 months is given to misdemeanors, and it is a sentence is rarely given for misdemeanors. Before Trump, it was NEVER given. (afaik)

Is it a Crime to Enter The U.S. Illegally? - AllLaw.com

Here is the actual text of the above citation:

Whatever it is you think you are correcting, apparently it is you who need correction.

Your misunderstanding is the phrase "federal crime", which is inclusive of misdemeanors, which is technically a "crime".

You saw the phrase 'federal crime' and you went giddy.

But 'crime' or 'criminal' is also used as a loaded term.

Use them carefully, accurately, and in proper context, or you'll be called on by those with sharp pens.

See, funny thing about context, it goes something like this:

People do not usually associate "criminal" with misdemeanors, they usually associate it with felonies.

So don't get technical when it comes to moms and dads fleeing persecution to protect children.

Yeah, perhaps you should heed some of your own advice...

Lets not go to your cherry picking of your first quote from your Atlaw link, but rather lets take the very first listing in bold text at head of the page.

Is it a Crime to Enter The U.S. Illegally?
Illegal entry (or "improper entry") to the US carries criminal penalties (fines and jail or prison time), in addition to civil penalties and immigration consequences (deportation and bars from future entry).

You see, there are criminal (crime) penalties as well as civil penalties. As also defined in U.S. Code › Title 8 › Chapter 12 › Subchapter II › Part VIII › § 1325 as I previously pointed out.

And what is the first thing listed in the heading of 18 U.S.C.A. § 3559?

18 U.S.C.
United States Code, 2011 Edition
Title 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART II - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
CHAPTER 227 - SENTENCES
SUBCHAPTER A - GENERAL PROVISIONS
Sec. 3559 - Sentencing classification of offenses
From the U.S. Government Publishing Office, U.S. Government Publishing Office

And in your trail to the Immigration and Nationality Act you have this:

INA: ACT 275 - ENTRY OF ALIEN AT IMPROPER TIME OR PLACE; MISREPRESENTATION AND CONCEALMENT OF FACTS

Sec. 275. [8 U.S.C. 1325]

(a) Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) 1/ Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to enter) the United States at a time or place other than as designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil penalty of-

(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or attempted entry); or

(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be imposed.

(c) An individual who knowingly enters into a marriage for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or fined not more than $250,000, or both.

(d) Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, or both.

You imprison people for crimes, you fine for civil penalties.

The act of entering the United States illegally (improper entry) is a crime no matter how much you cherry pick or word play to suit your preconceived notions. Are there civil penalties? yes there can be, but as stated they are in addition to not instead of.

OscarLevant · Jun 22, 2018

Sabre said:
Yeah, perhaps you should heed some of your own advice...

Lets not go to your cherry picking of your first quote from your Atlaw link, but rather lets take the very first listing in bold text at head of the page.

You see, there are criminal (crime) penalties as well as civil penalties. As also defined in U.S. Code › Title 8 › Chapter 12 › Subchapter II › Part VIII › § 1325 as I previously pointed out.

And what is the first thing listed in the heading of 18 U.S.C.A. § 3559?

And in your trail to the Immigration and Nationality Act you have this:

You imprison people for crimes, you fine for civil penalties.

The act of entering the United States illegally (improper entry) is a crime no matter how much you cherry pick or word play to suit your preconceived notions. Are there civil penalties? yes there can be, but as stated they are in addition to not instead of.

You haven't negated anything in my reply to your comment, you are just reiterating your comment to which I successfully refuted.

The 6 month jail term for a first offense, by virtue of that length of time, by law, makes it a class B misdemeanor.

FACT:
First offense of an illegal crossing is a class B misdemeanor, and prior to Zero Tolerance, these were rarely prosecuted ( unless smuggling dope, etc ), let alone taking kids away and sending them all over the united states, in many instances, very poor tracking as well.

Fact
While technically correct to call a misdemeanor a crime, the word "crime" is also used by people like you and your ilk ( see, two can play at the loaded terms game, feel better? ) as a loaded term to add weight to misdemeanor beyond the general weight associated with it in an effort to unjustly dehumanize parents who are fleeing persecution from Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala into order to shirk guilt so as to justify this morally reprehensible treatment, noting that the Zero Tolerance policy, a euphemism for dehumanizing, cruel and inhumane treatment of first time crossers is a new policy.

FYI
more serious Crimes are often fined and/or imprisoned.

OscarLevant · Jun 22, 2018

Sabre said:
Yeah, perhaps you should heed some of your own advice...

Lets not go to your cherry picking of your first quote from your Atlaw link, but rather lets take the very first listing in bold text at head of the page.

You see, there are criminal (crime) penalties as well as civil penalties. As also defined in U.S. Code › Title 8 › Chapter 12 › Subchapter II › Part VIII › § 1325 as I previously pointed out.

And what is the first thing listed in the heading of 18 U.S.C.A. § 3559?

And in your trail to the Immigration and Nationality Act you have this:

You imprison people for crimes, you fine for civil penalties.

The act of entering the United States illegally (improper entry) is a crime no matter how much you cherry pick or word play to suit your preconceived notions. Are there civil penalties? yes there can be, but as stated they are in addition to not instead of.

My editing of my first reply timed out, so I'm going to add this:

First offense is generally considered to be a misdemeanor, despite your nitpicking.

You, and your ilk ( see, two can play at the loaded words game ) are calling first offenders "criminals" ( a loaded term) in order to justify dehumanizing people who are fleeing persecution so that you can shirk your guilt for doing it.

Fortunately for the children, there are still a few responsible republicans left since repub leaders, congresspersons and senators, i.e., Trump's own caucus, have forced him to rescind the separation of kids from parents, and now the Trump administration put forth a motion to modify the Flores settlement, which I doubt will be honored by the court.

CLAX1911 · Jun 22, 2018

OscarLevant said:
You haven't negated anything in my reply to your comment, you are just reiterating your comment to which I successfully refuted.

The 6 month jail term for a first offense, by virtue of that length of time, by law, makes it a class B misdemeanor.

FACT:
First offense of an illegal crossing is a class B misdemeanor, and prior to Zero Tolerance, these were rarely prosecuted ( unless smuggling dope, etc ), let alone taking kids away and sending them all over the united states, in many instances, very poor tracking as well.

Officials that did not prosecute people for this were derelict in their Duty.

Fact
While technically correct to call a misdemeanor a crime, the word "crime" is also used by people like you and your ilk ( see, two can play at the loaded terms game, feel better? ) as a loaded term to add weight to misdemeanor beyond the general weight associated with it in an effort to unjustly dehumanize parents who are fleeing persecution from Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala into order to shirk guilt so as to justify this morally reprehensible treatment, noting that the Zero Tolerance policy, a euphemism for dehumanizing, cruel and inhumane treatment of first time crossers is a new policy.

so the reason why they're Prosecuting these people is to find out if they really are Asylum Seekers they could just be lying you don't know. You can't possibly know because you can't read minds we find that out through due process.

And frankly if they are found to not be true asylum-seekers I don't think we should in prison them I think we should just Deport them.

That doesn't sound like zero tolerance to me.

FYI
more serious Crimes are often fined and/or imprisoned.

Class B misdemeanors often come with some jail time. And a fine.

Sabre · Jun 22, 2018

OscarLevant said:
My editing of my first reply timed out, so I'm going to add this:

First offense is generally considered to be a misdemeanor, despite your nitpicking.

You, and your ilk ( see, two can play at the loaded words game ) are calling first offenders "criminals" ( a loaded term) in order to justify dehumanizing people who are fleeing persecution so that you can shirk your guilt for doing it.

A lot of accusations there, but please, elaborate on just what my "ilk" is in your mind.

OscarLevant · Jun 22, 2018

CLAX1911 said:
Officials that did not prosecute people for this were derelict in their Duty.

See my second reply to your post, as the first one timed out, there is more.

So you are equating a first time misdemeanor offense as a crime worthy of jail time, and sending their kids away from them to places all over the USA, keeping them in the US, while we deport them eventually and all during this, record keeping is so sloppy there are many reports that kids are getting lost in the system, which HHS has a history of, and Trump enacted this policy knowing this about HHS in advance, as he did not care, nor do you.

so the reason why they're Prosecuting these people is to find out if they really are Asylum Seekers they could just be lying you don't know. You can't possibly know because you can't read minds we find that out through due process.

This is what happens when a brain (such as yours) lacks dimensionality, you come up with anemic reasoning like you have just given.

To wit:

America's immigration inhumanity

In theory, criminal prosecution obliges Uncle Sam to extend due process to these [first offense] migrants, including legal representation and a court hearing. But Attorney General Jeff Sessions, the architect of the zero tolerance policy, is making a mockery of that requirement.

He has scrapped the Legal Orientation Program that allowed nonprofit organizations to help migrants facing deportation understand the Kafka-esque immigration legal code on which their fate hangs. He also did away with the requirement that immigration judges hold hearings on each asylum case — which basically means that these judges have little information to make determinations independent of the recommendations of detaining agents. This hands these agents, usually no friends of the asylum seekers, even more power, inviting exploitation and abuse.

Back to quoting you:

And frankly if they are found to not be true asylum-seekers I don't think we should in prison them I think we should just Deport them.

That doesn't sound like zero tolerance to me.

But that is what they are doing.
Moreover,
They are denying access to port of entry so they cannot apply for asylum, only letting in a few, here and there, making it very difficult for asylum seekers who have no home to go to at the port of entry, telling them to come back on another day, while spreading rumors children are being taken away only to never see them again, all of this to foment fear in asylum seekers, ostensibly so the will go away.

I have seen testimonies of undocs ( using translators ) on CNN, MSNBC, etc. Naturally, the right is going to say "theu are actors" (Ann Coulter said it ) or some such BS, but you'll never get the truth on Fox News.

Class B misdemeanors often come with some jail time. And a fine.

First time offending (misdemeanor) Undocs historically are not prosecuted and kids taken away.

CLAX1911 · Jun 22, 2018

OscarLevant said:
See my second reply to your post, as the first one timed out, there is more.

So you are equating a first time misdemeanor offense as a crime worthy of jail time, and sending theior kids away from them to places all over the USA, keeping them in the US, while we deport them eventually and all during this, record keeping is so sloppy there are many reports taht kids are getting lost ion the system, which HHS has a history of, and Trump enacted this policy knowing this about HHS in advance, as he did not care, nor do you.

This is what happens when a brain (such as yours) lacks dimensionality, you come up with anemic reasoning like you have just given.

To wit:

America's immigration inhumanity

Back to quoting you:

But that is what they are doing.
Moreover,
They are denying access to port of entry so they cannot apply for asylum, only letting in a few, here and there, making it very difficult
for asylum seekers who have no home to go to at the port of entry, telling them to come back on another day, while spreading rumors children are being taken away only to never see them again, all of this to foment fear in asylum seekers, ostensibly so the will go away.
I have seen testimonies of undocs ( using translators ) on CNN, MSNBC, etc. Naturally, the right is going to say "theu are actors" (Ann Coulter said it ) or some such BS, but you'll never get the truth on Fox News.

First time offending (misdemeanor) Undocs historically are not prosecuted and kids taken away.

None of this was an argument to anything I said.

So I will just reiterate the key points.

Class B misdemeanors carry jail time and fines it doesn't matter if it's a first-time offense or not you can be sentenced to jail time and fines.

The reason for all of this with illegal aliens is to see if they are truly seeking Asylum.

And historically officials being derelict in their duties has no bearing on anything.

Nickyjo · Jun 22, 2018

CLAX1911 said:
well the facilities were adequate up until this manufactured outrage. You realize these facilities have been there for a number of years before even anybody thought about Donald Trump as president.

Yes, the facilities have been there for years. I used to visit them as part of my job, in Texas and elsewhere. But why then did they put up all those tents recently, send JAG officers to help out? Send kids all over the country to find room for them? The increased facilities and personel are not due to manufactured outrage, but to increases of people fleeing Central America. I assume you noticed. Governments around the world have often increased facilities to deal with increases in refugee flows. The outrage was built by Trump and company and their actions. Was no outrage before Trump started separating families and implementing a brain dead new policy. He appeared to want outdo last year's farce at airports. "You wanna see chaos? I'll show you chaos!" Jeb Bush was right, we have a chaos presidency.

CLAX1911 · Jun 22, 2018

Nickyjo said:
Yes, the facilities have been there for years. I used to visit them as part of my job, in Texas and elsewhere. But why then did they put up all those tents recently, send JAG officers to help out? Send kids all over the country to find room for them? The increased facilities and personel are not due to manufactured outrage, but to increases of people fleeing Central America. I assume you noticed. Governments around the world have often increased facilities to deal with increases in refugee flows. The outrage was built by Trump and company and their actions. Was no outrage before Trump started separating families and implementing a brain dead new policy. He appeared to want outdo last year's farce at airports. "You wanna see chaos? I'll show you chaos!" Jeb Bush was right, we have a chaos presidency.

No the outrage seems to coincide with the Russia conspiracy ruining out of gas.

OscarLevant · Jun 22, 2018

CLAX1911 said:
None of this was an argument to anything I said.

So I will just reiterate the key points.

Class B misdemeanors carry jail time and fines it doesn't matter if it's a first-time offense or not you can be sentenced to jail time and fines.

The reason for all of this with illegal aliens is to see if they are truly seeking Asylum.

And historically officials being derelict in their duties has no bearing on anything.

The issue is the separation of children from their families and the incompetent management of those children's such that they are unable to return them to their parents and this is what's going on this is the issue

CLAX1911 · Jun 22, 2018

OscarLevant said:
The issue is the separation of children from their families

That happens every day. Every time someone is arrested for something they are separated from their children we don't hear you squealing about that. Just when they're illegal aliens why is that?

and the incompetent management of those children's such that they are unable to return them to their parents and this is what's going on this is the issue

Yet the people who are citizens whose parents are arrested they get shoved in the foster care system and you don't give a **** about that.

Why do you value illegal aliens over American citizens?

OscarLevant · Jun 23, 2018

CLAX1911 said:
That happens every day. Every time someone is arrested for something they are separated from their children we don't hear you squealing about that. Just when they're illegal aliens why is that?

That isn't the point. What happens beyond the issue at hand is another subject. The issue at hand, and the point is that we have never, historically, prosecuted first time crossers, a class B misdemeanor, and after we deported them, kept their kids after sending them all around the country to various shelters in such an incompetent manner that returning them will be extremely difficult, if not impossible for some.

Yet the people who are citizens whose parents are arrested they get shoved in the foster care system and you don't give a **** about that.

Why do you value illegal aliens over American citizens?

You can't ask a question with an assumed premise. (not to me, anyway).

If you are going to ask me a question with an assumed premise, you must first prove or at least reach a meeting of the mind with me on that premise, and then, and only then, can you ask me the question.

If you do, I'll just repeat the above, so don't bother unless you can reply with the above request. thank you.

CLAX1911 · Jun 23, 2018

OscarLevant said:
That isn't the point. What happens beyond the issue at hand is another subject. The issue at hand, and the point is that we have never, historically, prosecuted first time crossers, a class B misdemeanor,

okay I understand the point you're making that previous officials have been derelict in their duties. The idea is to stop that.

We do not have to let people off on first-time Class B misdemeanors. So the point you're making is not a point.

and after we deported them, kept their kids after sending them all around the country to various shelters in such an incompetent manner that returning them will be extremely difficult, if not impossible for some.

see this is the part where I don't know if it's true or not and you haven't made no effort to prove your claim so I'm free to doubt it.

You can't ask a question with an assumed premise. (not to me, anyway).

you don't seem to care that this happens to citizens. Our foster care system has been in shambles for decades but we can't blame Donald Trump for that so you don't care.

It isn't a loaded question you clearly do not care about citizens. I don't think you care about illegal aliens either you're just using them as a pathetic little bludgeoned to try and attack Donald Trump for something that was happening before he was even heard of as a presidential candidate.

If you are going to ask me a question with an assumed premise, you must first prove or at least reach a meeting of the mind with me on that premise, and then, and only then, can you ask me the question.

I view you as dishonest so I don't believe there can be a meeting of the minds. Further the premise isn't assumed it's clear how many threads have you started about foster care or children his parents got arrested that were citizens?

If you do, I'll just repeat the above, so don't bother unless you can reply with the above request. thank you.

Ignoring statements in points and wetting your pants over things you misconstrue is forfeiting your position. So I'm thrilled that you choose to ignore my argument to express your butt hurt over my generalization of you. That was the reason I did it.

You were throwing me softballs and making points I've already addressed so the arguments really over.

jnug · Jun 23, 2018

Having read the Brief submitted by the Sessions Justice Dept seeking relief from the standards for keeping children with their parents during immigration/asylum proceedings my personal opinion is that the Government does not have a snowball's chance in hell given the lack of any substance with regard to how the Government might facilitate proceedings.

The Brief simply asks for an open ended "emergency relief" calling it limited emergency relief. Well if they are not going to define "limited" IMO the judge will have no choice but to force the Government to define limited. How long do you want the right to keep kids in detention centers with their parents? What steps have you taken to speed the process for applicants?

None of that information is in the Brief. Hence I would conclude that the Brief as filed is an entirely specious effort, doomed to failure that the Government knows is doomed to failure. The Brief hinges its entire argument on the notion that none of this could have been foreseen. Well I guess if you want to make the case that Miller/Sessions/Trump deciding to prosecute 100% of what is an actual misdemeanor charge was not predictable then yes, nobody would have thought anybody could have been that stupid!

Other than that, the shift from a higher percentage of Mexican families seeking asylum to a higher percentage of Central American families seeking asylum was entirely predictable. I suspect the Judge is going to tell the government that.

OscarLevant · Jun 24, 2018

CLAX1911 said:
okay I understand the point you're making that previous officials have been derelict in their duties.

I'm going to stop you right there. Trump's own caucus, his wife and daughter, republican congresspersons and senators, all previous first ladies and presidents, and many other pundits and civic leaders, on the right and left, have pressured Trump to end this policy. Committing inhumane and cruelty towards children, a majority consensus agrees, is not what America is about.

You need to stop this nonsense you are pursuing that rescinding Trump's unecessary and therefore inhumane treatment of children is a "dereliction of duty".

That's evil, pure evil.

An no, you don't understand the point I'm making because that is not the point I'm making, sheesh....

You are conflating the general issue of immigration control with that one issue, which is the only issue at hand.

OscarLevant · Jun 24, 2018

CLAX1911 said:
That happens every day. Every time someone is arrested for something they are separated from their children we don't hear you squealing about that. Just when they're illegal aliens why is that?

Cruel and inhumane people view undocumented persons fleeing persecution and poverty in order to provide a better life for their children as criminal.

Compassionate people, the kind of people no doubt Jesus & Buddha approved of, do not. And no, this is not a recommendation of open borders, a typical strawman that repubs often kneejerk to.

The truth is that immigration has been way down for some time owing to xenophobia and it is resulting is a labor shortage in America, particularly in farming.

You guys are causing more problems with your xenophobia than you are curing.

Dems say stop the insanity, and let's do a comprehensive immigration policy that works for the greater good, and is not colored by hatred of brown people. That's all we are saying.

CLAX1911 · Jun 24, 2018

OscarLevant said:
I'm going to stop you right there. Trump's own caucus, his wife and daughter, republican congresspersons and senators, all previous first ladies and presidents, and many other pundits and civic leaders, on the right and left, have pressured Trump to end this policy.

what policy?

Committing inhumane and cruelty towards children, a majority consensus agrees, is not what America is about.

Well good that's not what America was doing.

You need to stop this nonsense you are pursuing that rescinding Trump's unecessary and therefore inhumane treatment of children is a "dereliction of duty".

I'm sorry if you don't arrest criminals even if they have children that is dereliction of Duty.

That's evil, pure evil.

arresting and prosecuting criminals fairly and justly at the expense of our justice system is evil? I consider it very kind other countries would just kill them or lock them up in prison or simply Deport them.

Listening to them and giving them the opportunity to defend themselves is an act of kindness.

An no, you don't understand the point I'm making because that is not the point I'm making, sheesh....

it's because the point you're making is stupid.

Your point is that criminals should get away with whatever crimes they commit if they have children and if they're not citizens. And everybody else around them should just learn to accept it because we don't want to see it toddler cry.

You are conflating the general issue of immigration control with that one issue, which is the only issue at hand.

I am not even talking about immigration. If people want to immigrate to this country I simply ask that they do it legally.

If they want to sneak in and lie about Asylum absolutely not.

justabubba · Jun 24, 2018

OscarLevant said:
Cruel and inhumane people view undocumented persons fleeing persecution and poverty in order to provide a better life for their children as criminal.

if one is fleeing poverty, is that adequate justification for breaking our nation's immigration laws?
to me, it is not

Compassionate people, the kind of people no doubt Jesus & Buddha approved of, do not. And no, this is not a recommendation of open borders, a typical strawman that repubs often kneejerk to.

paraphrased:

whatever you did for the least among us, you did for me

describes Christianity to me, a non-Christian. but we are a secular nation with secular laws. and those seeking to immigrate to the USA should adhere to those laws. when they enter the country illegally, they do not, and thus, subject themselves to the justice system

The truth is that immigration has been way down for some time owing to xenophobia and it is resulting is a labor shortage in America, particularly in farming.

such immigration suppresses the labor wage for US citizens without alternative work skills. and we have many of those under-skilled US citizens. but they - as citizens - can access the social safety net and live an equivalent existence NOT having to work fields for less than a living wage
we are faced with a few alternatives: (1) open our borders to more immigrants willing to work for a low wage; (2) shred our social safety net to force the poor to work for inadequate wages because there is no longer a safety net for them; or (3) pay higher prices for food (and other low skill services) to offset the wage increase needed to motivate US citizens to tend and harvest crops

You guys are causing more problems with your xenophobia than you are curing.

in '96, when reagan conferred amnesty upon millions of the undocumented, he then insisted the problem with the porous borders would be fixed so that the immigration problem did not continue. this is a long standing issue that the government seems unwilling or unable to solve

Dems say stop the insanity, and let's do a comprehensive immigration policy that works for the greater good, and is not colored by hatred of brown people. That's all we are saying.

no, they don't. if they did, this problem would have been solved early in Obama's administration, when democrats owned the white house, senate, and house of representatives, as the republicans do today

CLAX1911 · Jun 24, 2018

OscarLevant said:
Cruel and inhumane people view undocumented persons fleeing persecution and poverty in order to provide a better life for their children as criminal.

well that's incorrect the law actually does. But I don't care about your stupid appeals to emotion they aren't logical arguments.

Compassionate people, the kind of people no doubt Jesus & Buddha approved of, do not. And no, this is not a recommendation of open borders, a typical strawman that repubs often kneejerk to.

appeals to emotion are not logical arguments.

The truth is that immigration has been way down for some time owing to xenophobia and it is resulting is a labor shortage in America, particularly in farming.

claiming that people suffer from xenophobia is an appeal to emotion and not a logical argument.

The labor shortage is due to lazy people the 325 million people in this country that's more than we've ever had.

You guys are causing more problems with your xenophobia than you are curing.

calling people xenophobic is not a logical argument.

Dems say stop the insanity,

and yet they don't want to do it damn thing about the hemorrhage that is our borders.

So insane people crying to stop the insanity is profoundly hypocritical.

and let's do a comprehensive immigration policy that works for the greater good,

see this is insanity. Our immigration policy should be for the good of the United States and it's people not some greater purpose.

and is not colored by hatred of brown people. That's all we are saying.

what you're saying is banal and idiotic. If people want to immigrate legally I don't have a problem with that.

You don't seem to understand the problem is only with people sneaking it and then them lying about seeking Asylum.

Is there a law that requires families to be separated at the border?

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