'Fools Build Walls,' Says China — Home Of The Longest Wall In The World!

Rob Larrikin said:

Of course a professional thief cares. Give him a choice and he will prefer no door and no lock. To just walk in and take the money is easier than having to pick the lock and open the door first. It takes a few seconds, but during that time people can see.



Which takes time and is more risky that just walking in.


Give him a choice of two apartments with doorways ten feet apart. One doorway has a strong door with a strong good quality lock, and the other has no door at all. Both apartments have similar treasures within. The thief will take the no door choice every time. Also, doors aren’t meant to keep out professional thieves. They’re designed to keep out the common street rat.



Give him a choice between entering a house with no walls and one with walls, he’ll take the no walls choice each time. Interview him:

Gaius: So, why’d you pick the house with no walls?
Thief: [shrugs] It was easier.
Gaius: Yeah, but you could have got into the other one very quickly.
Thief: Sure.
Gaius: So why didn’t you pick it?
Thief: Slower. Messier. Noisier.
Gaius: Slower by how much?
Thief: Thirty seconds.
Gaius: Messier?
Thief: Sure. Why make a lot of mess and noise when you can just walk into the wall-less one and help yourself?
Gaius: But you…
Thief: No buts man. I’m not a fool. Why waste time and make noise and mess when you don’t have to?



Nothing, since Mexico will pay for it.



Tens of millions of illegals. Don’t forget time and breeding. Money? An incalculable amount.

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Ah....My English must really suck because you're not getting my point. So I'll try again.

If a professional thief wants to get in your house your door and walls aren't going stop him. Hell if some street hood wants to get in your house your doors and walls aren't going to stop him. Similarly if someone's walked all the way from Guatemala and braved dying of thirst in the desert a wall isn't going to be much of deterrent. Perhaps a wall lined with guys with automatic weapons. But guys and automatic weapons cost money.

Mexico will not pay for it. And there's no way on earth we can force them. That's a pipe dream. If it's going to be funded it's going to be funded by US taxpayers.

Tens of millions? Yeah maybe if we wait a couple thousand years. By then it's a moot point.

Most illegals come here legally and overstay visas. Most don't brave the desert. The wall, with lots of guys with machine guns, stops some of them but the problem remains. So since there's no reason to believe that Mexico is going to pay for it and it's going to cost more than 20 billion dollars when you factor in all those guys and guns the question remains: what's the return on the money spent? Do we actually recoup the cost of the wall and the guys and the guns or not?

Gaius46 said:

If a professional thief wants to get in your house your door and walls aren't going stop him.

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That’s okay – nobody said they would, and that’s not why we use them. We use them to keep MOST people out, and most people aren’t professional thieves. However, even they would rather break into a house without doors and walls than one with them.

Hell if some street hood wants to get in your house your doors and walls aren't going to stop him.

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If someone wants to murder you they will. Should we legalize murder? The point is that without murder laws many MORE people will want to murder you.

Similarly if someone's walked all the way from Guatemala and braved dying of thirst in the desert a wall isn't going to be much of deterrent.

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Unless he has a very long ladder and a lot of determination it will indeed deter him.

Perhaps a wall lined with guys with automatic weapons. But guys and automatic weapons cost money.

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Patrols will do, and don’t forget electronic surveillance. Cameras. Drones. Satellites.

Mexico will not pay for it.

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Yes they will – Trump stated that many times, and he is a man of his word.

And there's no way on earth we can force them.

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Taxes.

That's a pipe dream.

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Taxes? No, governments are quite good at taxing. It’s normally all they do.

If it's going to be funded it's going to be funded by US taxpayers.

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Nobody said Mexico would voluntarily pay it, nor did they say it would be paid immediately or in front. It will be paid though, probably with interest.

Tens of millions? Yeah maybe if we wait a couple thousand years. By then it's a moot point.

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You already have tens of millions. Another decade will see tens of millions more, if you don’t stop them.

Gaius46 said:

So you're a mind reader now?

If you've read even 1/10th of written here over the years you'd know that I'm a proponent of doing cost/benefit analysis as a part - a large part - of decision making so what I've written above is completely in line with what I've been writing here for years, as well as with how I make decisions in my private life.

I'm am not for unrestricted immigration, however no one has convincingly made the case that the initial and ongoing costs of a wall are actually less than the costs of we incur by not building it or by dealing with the issue in other ways. There are a myriad of factors that have to be taken into account and just putting up one set of numbers doesn't make the argument.

Specific to your numbers you do understand that a "migrant" is not an illegal immigrant but just someone from another country who is working here. About half the 3.5 million Central Americans in the US are here legally so there's no way to know what that $20 billion actually represents. It may be money that was all legally earned. At worst it's a number that blends legally earned with illegally earned money.

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The fact that you oppose a border wall and oppose more border agents says you are for illegal immigration and open borders.Because right now with the selective enforcement isn't working. So don't sit there with double speak and try to pretend otherwise.

jamesrage said:

The fact that you oppose a border wall and oppose more border agents says you are for illegal immigration and open borders.Because right now with the selective enforcement isn't working. So don't sit there with double speak and try to pretend otherwise.

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So a border wall is the only way to fix the problem? And if someone thinks spending loads of money on a border wall without any evidence that it's actually worth the money then they're for illegal immigration? Then I guess using your odd logic I'm for illegal immigration.

btw - ever hear the phrase "there's more than one way to skin a cat?" Well "there's more than one way to deal with illegal immigration." The wall is a simple solution to a complex problem and in the real world simple solutions to complex problems almost never work. What they do do though is allow the people who are for them to not have to actually do the hard work of thinking.

Have a good Wednesday.

Rob Larrikin said:

Yes they will – Trump stated that many times, and he is a man of his word.

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I think it's time to call it a day on this discussion my friend from the bottom of the world. I have to tell ya though that this comment made me start my day with laugh. Thanks for that.

Gaius46 said:

I think it's time to call it a day on this discussion my friend from the bottom of the world. I have to tell ya though that this comment made me start my day with laugh. Thanks for that.

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Sure. Just remember that people massed together aren't that bright. Trump would tell them two years ago that he would make Mexico pay, regardless of what they said, and that would be done in time. The masses then say a few months later, "Duhh, how come Mexico didn't pay?"

Gaius46 said:

So a border wall is the only way to fix the problem? And if someone thinks spending loads of money on a border wall without any evidence that it's actually worth the money then they're for illegal immigration? Then I guess using your odd logic I'm for illegal immigration.

btw - ever hear the phrase "there's more than one way to skin a cat?" Well "there's more than one way to deal with illegal immigration." The wall is a simple solution to a complex problem and in the real world simple solutions to complex problems almost never work. What they do do though is allow the people who are for them to not have to actually do the hard work of thinking.

Have a good Wednesday.

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People who tend to oppose border walls and any other enforcement measures tend to be pro-open borders and pro-illegal immigration. .Bitching about the cost of a wall is something an illegal alien ass kisser would do.

jamesrage said:

People who tend to oppose border walls and any other enforcement measures tend to be pro-open borders and pro-illegal immigration. .Bitching about the cost of a wall is something an illegal alien ass kisser would do.

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Illegal alien ass kisser? That the best you can do? Gotta tell ya it’s pretty weak.

But then I guess what should I expect from someone who believes in simplistic solutions without a shred of evidence?

Gaius46 said:

Illegal alien ass kisser? That the best you can do? Gotta tell ya it’s pretty weak.

But then I guess what should I expect from someone who believes in simplistic solutions without a shred of evidence?

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My proof is that you pretend that cost is an issue when it comes to cracking down on illegal immigration and preventing it. That somehow we shouldn't have more border guards and a wall because it would some how be too much money compared to everything else the government spends money on or gives away.

jamesrage said:

The fact that you oppose a border wall and oppose more border agents says you are for illegal immigration and open borders.Because right now with the selective enforcement isn't working. So don't sit there with double speak and try to pretend otherwise.

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OK HERE IS YOUR COST OF DOING NOTHING:

Illegal aliens cost the USA 89 billion dollars a year right now.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/map-illegal-immigration-costs-california-most-23b-all-states-89b

And is $ 89 billion year after year after year etc....

VERSES: A one time $80 billion to build the wall.

jamesrage said:

My proof is that you pretend that cost is an issue when it comes to cracking down on illegal immigration and preventing it. That somehow we shouldn't have more border guards and a wall because it would some how be too much money compared to everything else the government spends money on or gives away.

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That's not proof. That's a belief - and a wrong one at that - on your part.

You've also mis-characterized my position. What's the true cost of the wall and how much money will it save. In other words. What's the cost/benefit analysis. What's the cost/benefit analysis of other solutions?

JONRID said:

OK HERE IS YOUR COST OF DOING NOTHING:

Illegal aliens cost the USA 89 billion dollars a year right now.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/map-illegal-immigration-costs-california-most-23b-all-states-89b

And is $ 89 billion year after year after year etc....

VERSES: A one time $80 billion to build the wall.

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Okay so you're quoting numbers from a newspaper that got them from a website that got them from an anti-immigration organization. Did you question the numbers or do you just accept them because they agree with your views?


So let's assume for sake of argument that the 89 billion number is correct - I doubt it since the numbers I've seen are much lower and, depending on who you ask illegal immigrants may be a net benefit to the economy.
But anyway assume you're right. You are assuming that all 89 billion of that cost comes from people who cross the southern border illegally and you then further assume that the wall will be 100% effective in stopping them.

The wall will not stop people who enter the country legally and overstay their visas. Most estimates I've seen put that number at 40% of all illegals.

The wall not stop people who enter the country illegally from Canada. I couldn't find numbers for that but the US Immigration and Naturalization service has called it a significant problem

The wall will not be 100% effective. People will still get over it and others will simple go by boat. The US and Mexico afterall do both sit on the Pacific ocean and the Gulf of Mexico.

All those whittle down your, probably overestimated, number of $89 billion that the wall will save us significantly.


Now compare that against cost. We built about 700 miles of fence - not walls fencing - in some of the easiest to reach public land at the border. Average cost for a fence was 3.3 million dollars per mile (in 2009 dollars - that's about 4 million today) That doesn't include the cost of getting property - most of the border is private land and would need to be condemned - nor the cost of building roads to get out into remote parts of the desert, nor the additional costs of dealing with rougher terrain. And clearly a "big beautiful wall" is in and of itself going to be more expensive than a fence. So I have serious doubts that the quoted 20 billion figure is even in the ballpark.

Then there's the border agents at about $100,000 per year per agent. Vehicles, barracks etc etc etc.

It's far from clear that we get our money's worth from a wall.

Xelor said:

Context is "everything."

One will observe that the Great Wall of China was:

• Conceived and constructed as a military fortification.
• Does not sit on the current Chinese border and did not span the entirety of ancient Chinese border from which the Han nation could have been assailed and/or penetrated by adversaries.
  
  
  
  
  
  Indeed, there was a regular transit route that the Great Wall didn't obstruct.
  
  
  
• Has not been replicated on the current Chinese border, though there is a barrier between China and the DPRK.
  
  
  

Insofar as China has refrained from erecting a wall around its whole nation, the overwhelming majority of which abuts the territories of even less developed nations, it stand to reason that between the ancient era and the modern era, the Chinese have learned that erecting "great wall" walls is rarely an efficient use of resources.


As goes Trump's wall, I don't have a strong opinion whether there be or be not a wall on our border. I object to my tax dollars being used to build and/or maintain it, most especially insofar as Trump made such a big deal about Mexico paying for the wall he wants to build. Trump said that, and nobody made him do so. Trump encouraged throngs of people to chant that Mexico would pay for the wall, and nobody forced him to do so. So, as far as I'm concerned, he needs to be held to the terms of his promise -- build a wall spanning the Southern border that Mexico pays for.

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Try to cross Chinas border, then go ask for your government assistance.
We got idiots saying we don’t need a wall, we should just enforce the laws already on the books, but Trump just tried that and liberals lost their minds, they are still protesting, so we don’t believe for one minute that liberals will let us enforce our laws.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MrShangles said:

Try to cross Chinas border, then go ask for your government assistance.
We got idiots saying we don’t need a wall, we should just enforce the laws already on the books, but Trump just tried that and liberals lost their minds, they are still protesting, so we don’t believe for one minute that liberals will let us enforce our laws.

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Red:
Nobody's telling him not to enforce extant immigration laws. Nobody's losing their minds over Trump's enforcing extant immigration laws. All anyone's saying is don't separate kids from their parents, or at least don't do so outside the parameters of the law.

MrShangles said:

Try to cross Chinas border, then go ask for your government assistance.
We got idiots saying we don’t need a wall, we should just enforce the laws already on the books, but Trump just tried that and liberals lost their minds, they are still protesting, so we don’t believe for one minute that liberals will let us enforce our laws.

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Red:
What is your point? China is unlikely to grant citizenship to many or any would-be immigrants because China (1) has nearly two billion citizens (more than any other nation on Earth) and (2) remains consistently at full employment, having only structural unemployment.

Another thing is that China is as much concerned with keeping it's people in China than it is about much anyone (other than North Koreans) from without trying to immigrate illegally into the PRC. That's mostly because the PRC's neighbors don't want Chinese people flooding in to escape the command economy and political structure. Not that most Chinese want to; it's just that because the population is so large, even a small percentage of Chinese is a huge quantity of people. (Even just 1% of them is 20M people.)

FWIW, China has a fence on its border with the DPRK. China doesn't have a fence (or wall) spanning most or all of its borders. It has designated crossing points, but, for example, if one is in the wilds of the Wakhan Corridor, one can just walk on into the PRC. The Chinese border guards may or may not approach you and point you back across the line. It's somewhat harder to be non-Chinese and get to the Corridor from the Chinese side because that area it's considered a military zone and one has to get through the military zone to get to the Corridor.

That sucks because the Wakhan Corridor is gorgeous. I just didn't think it was worth going through A-stan to get to it. (Others may feel differently.) I knew about the place, and wanted to visit it, but I couldn't gain passage through the military zone to get to the A-stan side.

JONRID said:

OK HERE IS YOUR COST OF DOING NOTHING:

Illegal aliens cost the USA 89 billion dollars a year right now.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/map-illegal-immigration-costs-california-most-23b-all-states-89b

And is $ 89 billion year after year after year etc....

VERSES: A one time $80 billion to build the wall.

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The one time cost of 80 billion to build a wall sounds like bargain compared to what it costs year after year to deal with illegals. This is why I laugh when illegal alien testicle lickers complain about the cost of the wall.

Gaius46 said:

That's not proof. That's a belief - and a wrong one at that - on your part.

You've also mis-characterized my position. What's the true cost of the wall and how much money will it save. In other words. What's the cost/benefit analysis. What's the cost/benefit analysis of other solutions?

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Anyone concerned with deterring and stopping illegal immigration isn't concerned with the cost of the wall. You are.So it proves which side of the illegal immigration debate you are on.

jamesrage said:

Anyone concerned with deterring and stopping illegal immigration isn't concerned with the cost of the wall. You are.So it proves which side of the illegal immigration debate you are on.

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Forgive my saying this but people who don't worry about costs are either fools or still live with their parents.

Gaius46 said:

Forgive my saying this but people who don't worry about costs are either fools or still live with their parents.

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People who do worry about the costs of securing our borders are illegal alien ass kissers. Because the cost of the border wall and extra border agents is nothing compared to the costs of illegals and what we give away to other countries in the form of military and financial aid. This sort of money is chump change to our government and the only time they are concerned about costs is when it is money being spent on things they don't want. You don't want a wall and extra border agents because that would stop a lot of illegal immigration into this country.

jamesrage said:

People who do worry about the costs of securing our borders are illegal alien ass kissers. Because the cost of the border wall and extra border agents is nothing compared to the costs of illegals and what we give away to other countries in the form of military and financial aid. This sort of money is chump change to our government and the only time they are concerned about costs is when it is money being spent on things they don't want. You don't want a wall and extra border agents because that would stop a lot of illegal immigration into this country.

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Whatever you want to think. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

JONRID said:

The world has 7 billion people. The USA cannot be the life boat for the rest of the world without destroying the USA in the process.

Strong borders (oceans and a wall) are the only answers.

What the USA can do is be the template for the rest of the world (if they will) to follow.

Unfortunately even when 3rd word peoples try to mimic us, the end up with a Constitution with 150 Amendments.

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only lousy capitalists, say that. Good Capitalists proclaim, we should be finding a way to make a capital profit in a market friendly manner.