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Nicaragua Goes the Way of Venezuea

LowDown

Curmudgeon
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Nicaragua is showing all the symptoms of a failed state. At the center of the storm is the corrupt minority government of Daniel Ortega, the former revolutionary leader who now acts more like a cartel boss than a president. Over the past seven weeks, Ortega’s police and paramilitaries have killed more than 120 people, mostly students and other young protesters who are demanding the president’s ouster and a return to democracy, according to a human-rights group. Police hunt students like enemy combatants. Sandinista Youth paramilitaries, armed and paid by Ortega’s party, drive around in pickup trucks attacking protesters. Gangs of masked men loot and burn shops with impunity. Cops wear civilian clothing, and some paramilitaries dress in police uniforms. “This is starting to look more like Syria than Caracas,” one Nicaraguan business leader told me.

Leftist governments always follow the same trajectory from democratic idealism to losing democracy to horrible repressive violence and totalitarianism. It's inevitable because people don't want to live under real socialism and force is required to enact the ultimate policies of full nationalization of the means of production and of private property.

And now it looks like Mexico may go the same way.
 
So I guess Trump can have his own Iran-Contra Affair.
 
Leftist governments always follow the same trajectory from democratic idealism to losing democracy to horrible repressive violence and totalitarianism.

Where is the repressive violence and totalitarianism in Sweden and Norway and other leftist governments? And why do you ignore the repressive and totalitarianist right-wing regimes?
 
Leftist governments always follow the same trajectory from democratic idealism to losing democracy to horrible repressive violence and totalitarianism. It's inevitable because people don't want to live under real socialism and force is required to enact the ultimate policies of full nationalization of the means of production and of private property.

And now it looks like Mexico may go the same way.

This could be CIA, NED, USAID sponsored covert activities just like Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Venezuela, Haiti, Honduras, Panama, etc. The famous colar flag revolutions, except the CIA never admits to interfering in electoral politics. That, in itself, should reveal everything you need to know.
/
 
This could be CIA, NED, USAID sponsored covert activities just like Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Venezuela, Haiti, Honduras, Panama, etc. The famous colar flag revolutions, except the CIA never admits to interfering in electoral politics. That, in itself, should reveal everything you need to know.
/

It is certainly possible...

But this activity also "could be" aliens from outer or inner space. Almost anything "could be". Do you have any evidence at all? Our frequent historical interventions into Latin America, and Nicaragua specifically, aside, and I am not at all defending, but your just speculating without any facts is really saying much about nothing.

More of a look both ways before crossing this street warning, but we obviously should do that when crossing any street.
 
Where is the repressive violence and totalitarianism in Sweden and Norway and other leftist governments? And why do you ignore the repressive and totalitarianist right-wing regimes?

Right wing regimes get violently repressive when they are undemocratic and the people oppose them. This is well known and beside the point.

Sweden is an example of a left leaning nation that has not attempted to implement full socialism because they remain democratic and the people don't support doing that. In fact, Sweden isn't socialist. They have not abolished private property and most of their industry is privately owned. Publicly owned industries are of minor importance. They don't tax their rich as much as you might think, either, wanting to keep incentives for productivity alive. Their tax system is less progressive than the US.

In short, the claim that Sweden is socialist is misleading unless by socialism you mean "high taxes to pay for lots of government services". And that doesn't equate to a higher standard of living by a long shot.

The official name of Norway is "The Kingdom of Norway", and it's system is similar to that of Sweden although I didn't have time to look into the details.
 
Ortega's police and paramilitaries remind me a lot of the leftist Antifa here in the US. Forced compliance by means of violently beating people. Yep, enforcing authoritarian socialism is great. Freedom of speech has been greatly limited in Europe, another wonderful accomplishment for the so-called "enlightened left." And the kookers here want to follow the same path?
 
This could be CIA, NED, USAID sponsored covert activities just like Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Venezuela, Haiti, Honduras, Panama, etc. The famous colar flag revolutions, except the CIA never admits to interfering in electoral politics. That, in itself, should reveal everything you need to know.
/

Oh, but the Cold War is so last century.
 
It is certainly possible...

But this activity also "could be" aliens from outer or inner space. Almost anything "could be". Do you have any evidence at all? Our frequent historical interventions into Latin America, and Nicaragua specifically, aside, and I am not at all defending, but your just speculating without any facts is really saying much about nothing.

More of a look both ways before crossing this street warning, but we obviously should do that when crossing any street.

well, you obviously understand the US Government has a track record of ****ing with other nations & leaving destruction in the wake

the possibility certainly is real for such acts to continue so, why are you skeptical?
 
Right wing regimes get violently repressive when they are undemocratic and the people oppose them. This is well known and beside the point.

Sweden is an example of a left leaning nation that has not attempted to implement full socialism because they remain democratic and the people don't support doing that. In fact, Sweden isn't socialist. They have not abolished private property and most of their industry is privately owned. Publicly owned industries are of minor importance. They don't tax their rich as much as you might think, either, wanting to keep incentives for productivity alive. Their tax system is less progressive than the US.

In short, the claim that Sweden is socialist is misleading unless by socialism you mean "high taxes to pay for lots of government services". And that doesn't equate to a higher standard of living by a long shot.

The official name of Norway is "The Kingdom of Norway", and it's system is similar to that of Sweden although I didn't have time to look into the details.

Sweden, Denmark and Norway are "leftist" and "socialist" because they have a security net and universal healthcare.. that is what we hear over here all the time from the American right. The reality is, that the countries are in fact more free and open both politically, socially and economically than the US.

As for the topic at hand.. Nicaragua going left is the result of a US backed right wing terror campaign going back decades... thanks Reagan and his cronies for what Nicaragua has become... same with Venezuela in many ways.

By this I mean, the whole situation is a reaction to abuses by the US and their right wing lackeys in the region going back decades. It is how people react.... by going the opposite way.

Take Spain... 50 years of a right wing dictatorship. Democracy comes and the left comes to power for over a decade. Now in Spain's case it did not end in the chaos of other countries going through the same problem, but the reaction is similar.

Or take the countries behind the Iron curtain. Democracy comes and the opposition takes over power for a long period. The old left wing parties are no where to be found and in many places still are not. Most major governing political parties in countries behind the Iron curtain are centre right or right wing and in the extreme cases like in Hungary and now Poland, the far right fascist parties have taken over and that is a direct result of the abuses of the Soviet era.
 
It is certainly possible...

But this activity also "could be" aliens from outer or inner space. Almost anything "could be". Do you have any evidence at all? Our frequent historical interventions into Latin America, and Nicaragua specifically, aside, and I am not at all defending, but your just speculating without any facts is really saying much about nothing.

More of a look both ways before crossing this street warning, but we obviously should do that when crossing any street.

Both USAID and NED are operating in Nicaragua. Follow the money. Funding.
/
 
It is certainly possible...

But this activity also "could be" aliens from outer or inner space. Almost anything "could be". Do you have any evidence at all? Our frequent historical interventions into Latin America, and Nicaragua specifically, aside, and I am not at all defending, but your just speculating without any facts is really saying much about nothing.

More of a look both ways before crossing this street warning, but we obviously should do that when crossing any street.

Page not found | The American Conservative
 
Oh, but the Cold War is so last century.

What do you think the CIA does. The NeoCons brought the Cold War back because it's makes them money.
/
 
This could be CIA, NED, USAID sponsored covert activities just like Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Venezuela, Haiti, Honduras, Panama, etc. The famous colar flag revolutions, except the CIA never admits to interfering in electoral politics. That, in itself, should reveal everything you need to know.
/

Or it could be simply that some nations choose poorly...

But we KNOW your answer to any world problem is the CIA is at fault.

Piling USAID in with the CIA is simply ignorant.
 
Leftist governments always follow the same trajectory from democratic idealism to losing democracy to horrible repressive violence and totalitarianism. It's inevitable because people don't want to live under real socialism and force is required to enact the ultimate policies of full nationalization of the means of production and of private property.
And now it looks like Mexico may go the same way.

How strong of a role does plain ol corruption play in the failure of a state vs the effects of some -ism?

Is there an -ism which will let a state survive severe corruption?
 
Or it could be simply that some nations choose poorly...

But we KNOW your answer to any world problem is the CIA is at fault.

Piling USAID in with the CIA is simply ignorant.

I acknowledge your ignorance.
/
 
How strong of a role does plain ol corruption play in the failure of a state vs the effects of some -ism?

Is there an -ism which will let a state survive severe corruption?

Probably not. I have relatives that have worked in Nicaragua... Plenty of graft to go around.
 
Sweden, Denmark and Norway are "leftist" and "socialist" because they have a security net and universal healthcare.. that is what we hear over here all the time from the American right. The reality is, that the countries are in fact more free and open both politically, socially and economically than the US.

As for the topic at hand.. Nicaragua going left is the result of a US backed right wing terror campaign going back decades... thanks Reagan and his cronies for what Nicaragua has become... same with Venezuela in many ways.

By this I mean, the whole situation is a reaction to abuses by the US and their right wing lackeys in the region going back decades. It is how people react.... by going the opposite way.

Take Spain... 50 years of a right wing dictatorship. Democracy comes and the left comes to power for over a decade. Now in Spain's case it did not end in the chaos of other countries going through the same problem, but the reaction is similar.

Or take the countries behind the Iron curtain. Democracy comes and the opposition takes over power for a long period. The old left wing parties are no where to be found and in many places still are not. Most major governing political parties in countries behind the Iron curtain are centre right or right wing and in the extreme cases like in Hungary and now Poland, the far right fascist parties have taken over and that is a direct result of the abuses of the Soviet era.

Except the US had nothing to do with Franco coming to power, so your entire premise is inherently flawed.
 
The USA can't back pro democracy or right leaning groups in other nations?

Really?

While plenty of munitions and money flowed from Russia and Chine to foment "peoples" rebellions around the globe...

"Allen Weinstein, a member of the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) working group known as the Democracy Group, which first proposed the formation of a quasi-governmental group to channel U.S. political aid, served as NED's acting president during its first year. Talking about the role of NED, Weinstein told the Washington Post in 1991 that "a lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA."

https://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/national_endowment_for_democracy/

"To substitute for secret CIA financing of political and cultural organizations (which had been prohibited by Congress after revelations that the CIA was funding domestic academic and cultural organizations), neoconservatives and their labor partners advocated that Reagan establish a quasi-governmental organization to redirect USIA and USAID funds."

"Not only did NED give neoconservatives a government-funded institute over which they exercised effective control, but it also facilitated close links with the U.S. government-funded international operations of the AFL-CIO, while building new ties with business. NED supported the creation of a series of neoconservative-led front groups that sought bipartisan and U.S. public support for an interventionist policy in Central America, which was part of the larger rollback and containment policy advocated by groups such as the Committee on the Present Danger and the Coalition for Peace through Strength. One of the most prominent of these NED-financed front groups was the Project for Democracy in Central America (PRODEMCA), whose objectives merged the hard (military) and soft (political aid/public diplomacy) sides of the neoconservative agenda in Central America. On the one hand, it received clandestine support from the unofficial "Project Democracy" of the National Security Council, operated by Oliver North and supervised by Elliott Abrams. On the other hand, it received USAID funding through NED for public diplomacy efforts."

"According to NED's website, the largest single 2002 NED grant in Latin America went to ACILS. NED gave this USAID-supported branch of the AFL-CIO $775,000 "to implement a program to reinforce the capacity of labor unions to promote economic and political reform and build alliance with civil society at community and national levels." ACILS did the same in Venezuela, where it worked with anti-Chávez worker groups that formed an alliance with business, civil society, and political parties that engineered the attempted coup in April 2002. The same year, ACILS received $116,000 to "support the Venezuelan trade movement, represented by the Confederation of Venezuelan Workers, in developing a program to extend organization, training, and representation to the informal sector."

""An even more dubious initiative," wrote Barbara Conry for a 1993 Cato Institute report, "was NED's involvement in Costa Rica. Not only is Costa Rica a well-established democracy—former president George Bush visited the country in 1989 to celebrate 100 years of democracy there—it is the only stable democracy in Central America. But Costa Rican president Oscar Arias had opposed Ronald Reagan's policy in Central America, especially his support of the Nicaraguan Contras. Arias received the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to dampen conflicts in the region, but he incurred the wrath of right-wing NED activists. So from 1986 to 1988 NED gave money to Arias's political opposition, which was also strongly supported by Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega. As Rep. Stephen Solarz (D-NY) commented: 'They may technically have been within the law, but I felt this clearly violated the spirit. … The whole purpose of NED is to facilitate the emergence of democracy where it doesn't exist and preserve it where it does exist. In Costa Rica, neither of these [conditions] applies."
 
"Allen Weinstein, a member of the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) working group known as the Democracy Group, which first proposed the formation of a quasi-governmental group to channel U.S. political aid, served as NED's acting president during its first year. Talking about the role of NED, Weinstein told the Washington Post in 1991 that "a lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA."

https://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/national_endowment_for_democracy/

"To substitute for secret CIA financing of political and cultural organizations (which had been prohibited by Congress after revelations that the CIA was funding domestic academic and cultural organizations), neoconservatives and their labor partners advocated that Reagan establish a quasi-governmental organization to redirect USIA and USAID funds."

"Not only did NED give neoconservatives a government-funded institute over which they exercised effective control, but it also facilitated close links with the U.S. government-funded international operations of the AFL-CIO, while building new ties with business. NED supported the creation of a series of neoconservative-led front groups that sought bipartisan and U.S. public support for an interventionist policy in Central America, which was part of the larger rollback and containment policy advocated by groups such as the Committee on the Present Danger and the Coalition for Peace through Strength. One of the most prominent of these NED-financed front groups was the Project for Democracy in Central America (PRODEMCA), whose objectives merged the hard (military) and soft (political aid/public diplomacy) sides of the neoconservative agenda in Central America. On the one hand, it received clandestine support from the unofficial "Project Democracy" of the National Security Council, operated by Oliver North and supervised by Elliott Abrams. On the other hand, it received USAID funding through NED for public diplomacy efforts."

"According to NED's website, the largest single 2002 NED grant in Latin America went to ACILS. NED gave this USAID-supported branch of the AFL-CIO $775,000 "to implement a program to reinforce the capacity of labor unions to promote economic and political reform and build alliance with civil society at community and national levels." ACILS did the same in Venezuela, where it worked with anti-Chávez worker groups that formed an alliance with business, civil society, and political parties that engineered the attempted coup in April 2002. The same year, ACILS received $116,000 to "support the Venezuelan trade movement, represented by the Confederation of Venezuelan Workers, in developing a program to extend organization, training, and representation to the informal sector."

""An even more dubious initiative," wrote Barbara Conry for a 1993 Cato Institute report, "was NED's involvement in Costa Rica. Not only is Costa Rica a well-established democracy—former president George Bush visited the country in 1989 to celebrate 100 years of democracy there—it is the only stable democracy in Central America. But Costa Rican president Oscar Arias had opposed Ronald Reagan's policy in Central America, especially his support of the Nicaraguan Contras. Arias received the Nobel Peace Prize for his efforts to dampen conflicts in the region, but he incurred the wrath of right-wing NED activists. So from 1986 to 1988 NED gave money to Arias's political opposition, which was also strongly supported by Panamanian dictator Manuel Noriega. As Rep. Stephen Solarz (D-NY) commented: 'They may technically have been within the law, but I felt this clearly violated the spirit. … The whole purpose of NED is to facilitate the emergence of democracy where it doesn't exist and preserve it where it does exist. In Costa Rica, neither of these [conditions] applies."

So, you won't answer my question... Got it.
 
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