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Arre Trump's lawyers right about trump's unlimited ability to pardon?

bearpoker said:
He was still pardoned for a crime, even though he wasn't charged with one. Ford acted in advance.
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:lamo


This is what you said, and you were wrong. The above does not excuse your incorrectness.

bearpoker said:
You can only pardon a conviction, not an endictment.
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Not to begin to argue about innocent until proven guilty and that he may not have been found guilty etc... Doh!
 
late said:
Nixon tried something similar, and the courts slapped him down.

Most of what he does now is about the investigation (delay, distract, deny) and law has nothing to do with the scam he's trying to pull.
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what? what does that mean? that courts reversed pardons that had been issued?
 
bearpoker said:
If Trump murdered the bus full of school children anywhere but Washington D.C., that is in one of the states, it seems to me that he could certainly be arrested for it since murder is against the law in every state. Since Trump can only pardon himself for federal and not state crimes, he'd have to get the governor to pardon him.
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Why would Trump murder a school bus full of children? gosh you people can't even use a generic "if the president" to refer to a generic office holder, we have to link the words "Trump" to "murder a bus full of children"
 
Excon said:
No haymarket. You have no Court decisions to support such an interpretation.
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What Court decisions on this matter do you have to demonstrate I am incorrect?





Pardoning a crime, which the Office of the President has the authority, does not preclude an impeachment nor could it.
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It most certainly would not only interfere in the gathering of important and crucial evidence in an impeachment but could well subvert the entire process. Thus a pardon of the presidents fellow criminal allies would indeed effectively preclude an impeachment which would be a constitutional violation.
 
Fletch said:
Trump has not been impeached. Bill Clinton was impeached but that didnt prevent him from pardoning anyone. The fact is, if Trump pardons Manafort and Flynn, for example, there isnt a thing anyone could do about it. The pardons would stand.
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Those pardons would be beyond the power of the president because they would be for a corrupt or illegitimate purpose.
 
hanger4 said:
Impeachment is nothing more an indictment brought by the House of Representatives. The trial is held in the Senate with the Senators as the jury.

*impeachment is on the table*

If it was as simple as "on the table" then Gerald Ford broke the law pardoning Nixon. Impeachment was most definitely "on the table".
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The Ford pardon came AFTER Nixon had resigned so he could not have been impeached as that was no longer "on the table" to use your own phrase. You cant impeach somebody who does not hold the office you are trying to remove him from.
 
haymarket said:
What Court decisions on this matter do you have to demonstrate I am incorrect?
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Sorry, doesn't work that way.
Your claim, you have to support it. So far you have been unable to do so.


haymarket said:
Pardoning a crime, which the Office of the President has the authority, does not preclude an impeachment nor could it
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It most certainly would not only interfere in the gathering of important and crucial evidence in an impeachment but could well subvert the entire process. Thus a pardon of the presidents fellow criminal allies would indeed effectively preclude an impeachment which would be a constitutional violation.
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No haymarket. Stop making things up to believe.
A criminal pardon would not preclude an impeachment.
 
independentusa said:
I am trying to follow Trump's lawyers opinions, not about their belief that the president can't commit obstruction of justice, but about his unlimited ability to pardon. So I ask this question, if Trump said to those in prison, pay me a million dollars and I will pardon you, which he can do, has he committed a crime or violated the law? If you follow the interpretation of the constitution by his lawyers it would seem not. His ability to pardon according to them is unlimited and not open to question, but do you believe this is true?
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Unlimited power of the Pardon, yes. The Constitution states: "He shall have the power to grant reprieves and pardons for offenses against the United States, except in the case of impeachment."

That's pretty cut and dried. Could Trump or any president do as you wrote? Yeah, but that would fall under the quid pro quo which in my opinion would be an impeachable offense. It would also turn a majority of the American people against any president that did such a thing. Impeachment would surely follow. Then once out of office, criminal charges would be brought.
 
Mach said:
Criminals should be pissed they are being investigated.

Interfering with an ongoing investigation is different than being pissed. Attacking the norms of the rule of law, is different than being pissed you got caught up in the norms of the rule of law.

Post something worth a **** Fletch, you can do it.
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Why dont you go take a nap. Maybe when you wake up you will feel better.
 
Fletch said:
I dont think hes acting guilty at all. I think he is pissed that there is a bogus investigation of something he didnt do that is trashing his image and hindering his ability to carry out his duties as president. Id be pissed too.
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[emphasis added by bubba]

rudy julieannie on why he does not want tRump to testify before Mueller:
". . . his 'recollection' of the truth 'keeps changing.'”
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does an innocent man act that way?

https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/re...-not-testify-cant-tell-truth/?comments=disqus
 
Fletch said:
Trump has not been impeached. Bill Clinton was impeached but that didnt prevent him from pardoning anyone. The fact is, if Trump pardons Manafort and Flynn, for example, there isnt a thing anyone could do about it. The pardons would stand.
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Yes the pardons would stand, but if it is done for corrupt purposes, that could get the president in trouble.
 
independentusa said:
Yes the pardons would stand, but if it is done for corrupt purposes, that could get the president in trouble.
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But proving corrupt purposes would be rather difficult since neither man has been charged with a crime linked to Trump at all.
 
Fletch said:
That makes a good deal of sense but the problem is, the charges against Flynn and Manafort have nothing to do with Trump. Nor is there any evidence that Trump committed a crime that even needs to be covered up. Those guys would have to be facing charges somehow related or tied to Trump for a pardon of them to be viewed as obstruction of some sort.
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As one person here wrote though, it would make forcing them to spill on trump easy as they would no longer have the 5th Amendment to hide behind. They would either spill the beans or go to jail for as long as they held out. It might actually be worse for Trump to pardon them.
 
Fletch said:
Oh I am not advocating that either be pardoned, certainly not Manafort. Manafort seems to be a bad guy. I think Trump should let the investigation play out because I dont think he did anything wrong. I was simply pointing out that he could, not that he should.
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Are you basing your opinion on what has come out about the investigation or what trump has said about no collusion, no obstruction and the FBI is corrupt? None of which has any validity in reality or the evidence?
 
iliveonramen said:
I agree with Trumps lawyers. The check on Presidential power is Congress not the court system. Trump not being held accountable would be the fault of Republicans in Congress and their voters.
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The question isn't one of Presidential power but whether the President is above the law, which he effectively is if he can pardon himself. In a society built on the rule of law the concept of self pardon is repulsive, also illogical.
 
Fearandloathing said:
That raises a question.

If he has done nothing wrong, why is he acting so guilty?
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A while back I was at a family holiday function and we were discussing this topic and a Trump supporter offered a rather unique defense. When somebody asked this very question - why does Trump act like he is guilty - we were told by a defender that Trump has been a complete and total asshole his entire adult life and that is simply who is he and we cannot hold that against him nor use his complete and total assholery as a sign he is guilty.

Now what do you say to that except "never mind" and go see if the dessert is out yet?
 
Fletch said:
I have no idea. But I have seen zero evidence of collusion after 2 years of investigation. It didnt happen.
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So you think because Mueller hasn't leaked all he knows it hasn't happened. Many of the people who have been questioned by Mueller's team have come out and said that Mueller knows a lot more than anyone thinks. I think if you are being objective about the whole investigation you would do like the rest of us and wait to see. In the end you may be right that Trump and everyone on his team were not colluding with the Russians, and I actually hope that is true, but then you might be wrong. I wonder if anyone who is a trump supporter would believe it if the evidence proved Trump guilty? I do not think so as I see them as being engaged in a kind of cult with Trump as their messiah.
 
Excon said:
Sorry, doesn't work that way.
Your claim, you have to support it. So far you have been unable to do so.


No haymarket. Stop making things up to believe.
A criminal pardon would not preclude an impeachment.
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I did support it with the Constitution and analysis.

What Court decisions do you cite to show I am incorrect?

If the practical effect of a pardon of the presidents fellow criminals then prevents evidence from coming to light, it certainly does have the very real world effect of preventing an impeachment since the evidence necessary for it never comes to light.
 
Fletch said:
Why dont you go take a nap. Maybe when you wake up you will feel better.
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I accept your forfeiture. We all know what the DOJ clearly states on this, and that you claimed it was not the case, with no evidence.
 
haymarket said:
I did support it with the Constitution and analysis.
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iLOL No.
Please provide a Court case to support your position.

You can't because you know there is none.


haymarket said:
If the practical effect of a pardon of the presidents fellow criminals then prevents evidence from coming to light, it certainly does have the very real world effect of preventing an impeachment since the evidence necessary for it never comes to light.
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iLOL You are again making something up to believe.
 
Trump's lawyers are correct except there is a chance that he cant pardon himself. The remedy for improper use of the pardon is impeachment, a political act.

No president has ever tried to pardon himself, let alone been prosecuted after trying to pardon himself, so no court has had a chance to rule on the validity of self-pardons. Nixon considered pardoning himself just before he resigned. His lawyer advised him that he had the power, but Nixon decided against it. President Bill Clinton rendered the issue moot by reaching a settlement with his special prosecutor the day before he left office (and pardoned 140 people other than himself).
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Can Trump Pardon Himself? – Foreign Policy


In a Constitution filled with checks and balances among the branches of
government, the executive pardon power "stands alone in its capaciousness,"2
providing the President "Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against
the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."3 The only recognized
constitutional check on the pardon power is Congress's ability to impeach a President
for "treasonous wrongdoing" connected with pardons.4 I
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https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1287&context=ilj
 
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