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The Myth of Social Mobility in the US

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ataraxia

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We Americans pride ourselves on the supposed social mobility that exists in the US. Anyone who is willing to work hard can "lift themselves up the bootstraps" and make something of themselves, if they are smart enough and apply themselves. Right?

Well, I was surprised to learn that the US is actually at the bottom of the pack in terms of measures of social mobility among all OECD nations. We may be ahead of Slovenia, but that's about it. If you are born poor in the US, you are far less likely to get a decent education or any opportunities to advance. Forget that, they are not even going to give you lunch in your elementary school.

Who's #1? Denmark, that supposedly socialist hellhole.

The notion that anyone in America who is willing and able to “pull themselves up by their bootstraps” can achieve significant upward mobility is deeply embedded in U.S. society. Conventional wisdom holds that class barriers in the United States are the lowest among the world’s advanced economies. Motivating this belief is the notion that there is a tradeoff between market regulation and mobility; advanced European economies are characterized by higher taxes, greater regulation, more union coverage, universal health care, a more comprehensive social contract, etc. Because some see these policies and institutions as impediments to mobility, mobility is believed to be greater in the United States.

While faith in the American Dream is deep, evidence suggests that the United States lacks policies to ensure the opportunities that the dream envisions. According to the data, there is considerably more mobility in most other developed economies.
https://www.epi.org/publication/usa-lags-peer-countries-mobility/
Click to expand...
 
ataraxia said:
We Americans pride ourselves on the supposed social mobility that exists in the US. Anyone who is willing to work hard can "lift themselves up the bootstraps" and make something of themselves, if they are smart enough and apply themselves. Right?

Well, I was surprised to learn that the US is actually at the bottom of the pack in terms of measures of social mobility among all OECD nations. We may be ahead of Slovenia, but that's about it. If you are born poor in the US, you are far less likely to get a decent education or any opportunities to advance. Forget that, they are not even going to give you lunch in your elementary school.

Who's #1? Denmark, that supposedly socialist hellhole.
Click to expand...

That's because "policies" don't equal motivation or desire. You're not owed anything.
 
WCH said:
That's because "policies" don't equal motivation or desire. You're not owed anything.
Click to expand...

Well...except in Denmark. ;) And Norway, Finland, Canada (woot woot), Australia, Sweden, New Zealand, Germany, Japan, Spain, France, and Switzerland...hehe.. :)
 
WCH said:
That's because "policies" don't equal motivation or desire. You're not owed anything.
Click to expand...

Nope... it is because your educations system is so expensive.

Denmark was much like the US after WW2. We had our "classes" and if you were born into a working class family with the father working at the shipyard, chances were as a man.. you would work there, or get another similar job. There was almost no chance of growing up with a bricklayer father and you becoming a doctor or lawyer.. you could not afford the education basically.

That changed after WW2, when "those damn socialists" changed our education system from top to bottom. Not only did they reform our basic schooling, but they made higher education free (or near free) for everyone. The only barrier was intelligence/grades, not cost.

So my fathers generation, the first generation born just before/under or after the war, became the first generation where upward social mobility became a real possibility. My father came from a real worker family.. grand-dad worked at the biggest shipyard as a welder. My father finished elementary school and as per tradition he was sent out to get a skill.. a bricklayer. He completed that, but just as he did, the new opportunities opened up. He grabbed them, and went to engineering school at university. Only a decade earlier was this near impossible. He also as one of the first went abroad after his degree.. to the US and worked on some of LAs waste management systems in the 1960s.

Now in Denmark, any kid regardless of where they come from or what background.. if you have the grades, then you can literally become whatever you want and desire. You can not say that of the US, where the economic barrier is huge and of course the social and racial barriers are big as well.
 
We could look into the successful social programs that the rest of the first world has embraced for decades, but that might seriously interfere with our "let's let five old white guys control all of the money and hope that they give some back" system.
 
WCH said:
That's because "policies" don't equal motivation or desire. You're not owed anything.
Click to expand...

So in other countries where people have more social mobility, they don't have motivation or desire? The only thing that seems different is the policies.
 
ataraxia said:
We Americans pride ourselves on the supposed social mobility that exists in the US. Anyone who is willing to work hard can "lift themselves up the bootstraps" and make something of themselves, if they are smart enough and apply themselves. Right?

Well, I was surprised to learn that the US is actually at the bottom of the pack in terms of measures of social mobility among all OECD nations. We may be ahead of Slovenia, but that's about it. If you are born poor in the US, you are far less likely to get a decent education or any opportunities to advance. Forget that, they are not even going to give you lunch in your elementary school.

Who's #1? Denmark, that supposedly socialist hellhole.
Click to expand...
That economic organization is known to be left leaning, but regardless, lets address the facts....

https://www.heritage.org/internatio...g-international-comparisons-economic-mobility

This article has some excellent rebuttals ... specifically the "The Accuracy of Economic Mobility May Be Affected by Demography and Country Size" portion.

Comparing statistics of countries with the population size of Washington DC.... to an entire country like the USA...is rather puzzling. Western Europe would be a more accurate comparison with(397 million people). Otherwise, selecting Denmark is like just cherry picking the best city in the USA for economic mobility and consider that as a valid representation of the entire USA's economic policies.

If you view Europe as an integrated marketplace, it has larger wage inequality than the USA.
 
OlNate said:
Well...except in Denmark. ;) And Norway, Finland, Canada (woot woot), Australia, Sweden, New Zealand, Germany, Japan, Spain, France, and Switzerland...hehe.. :)
Click to expand...

Based on what the father made as opposed to their sons? If they're figuring in what those sons and daughter make living at home with their parents. LOL. IMO, it has nothing to do with "pulling yourself up"

Look at the board of directors for EPI. More than a few commie, worker's party types. They don't want anyone achieving too much.
 
celticwar17 said:
That economic organization is known to be left leaning, but regardless, lets address the facts....

https://www.heritage.org/internatio...g-international-comparisons-economic-mobility

This article has some excellent rebuttals ... specifically the "The Accuracy of Economic Mobility May Be Affected by Demography and Country Size" portion.

Comparing statistics of countries with the population size of Washington DC.... to an entire country like the USA...is rather puzzling. Western Europe would be a more accurate comparison with(397 million people). Otherwise, selecting Denmark is like just cherry picking the best city in the USA for economic mobility and consider that as a valid representation of the entire USA's economic policies.

If you view Europe as an integrated marketplace, it has larger wage inequality than the USA.
Click to expand...

The lower social mobility in the US and the UK when compared to the rest of western Europe (excluding eastern Europe) and Canada is a widely reported issue. I have posted on it at least 2 over the last few years.

The first article was from The Economist magazine and was from a few years ago. Educational opportunities and health care are likely the largest factor in social mobility. Both of which are quite affordable in most of Europe and Canada for a good quality education. Not so much in the US and UK. This allows the individual to more strongly determine where they end up, rather than how wealthy their family was at birth.
 
PeteEU said:
Nope... it is because your educations system is so expensive.

Denmark was much like the US after WW2. We had our "classes" and if you were born into a working class family with the father working at the shipyard, chances were as a man.. you would work there, or get another similar job. There was almost no chance of growing up with a bricklayer father and you becoming a doctor or lawyer.. you could not afford the education basically.

That changed after WW2, when "those damn socialists" changed our education system from top to bottom. Not only did they reform our basic schooling, but they made higher education free (or near free) for everyone. The only barrier was intelligence/grades, not cost.

So my fathers generation, the first generation born just before/under or after the war, became the first generation where upward social mobility became a real possibility. My father came from a real worker family.. grand-dad worked at the biggest shipyard as a welder. My father finished elementary school and as per tradition he was sent out to get a skill.. a bricklayer. He completed that, but just as he did, the new opportunities opened up. He grabbed them, and went to engineering school at university. Only a decade earlier was this near impossible. He also as one of the first went abroad after his degree.. to the US and worked on some of LAs waste management systems in the 1960s.

Now in Denmark, any kid regardless of where they come from or what background.. if you have the grades, then you can literally become whatever you want and desire. You can not say that of the US, where the economic barrier is huge and of course the social and racial barriers are big as well.
Click to expand...

I know all sorts of people who didn't rely on education to become successful. They worked hard.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
The lower social mobility in the US and the UK when compared to the rest of western Europe (excluding eastern Europe) and Canada is a widely reported issue. I have posted on it at least 2 over the last few years.

The first article was from The Economist magazine and was from a few years ago. Educational opportunities and health care are likely the largest factor in social mobility. Both of which are quite affordable in most of Europe and Canada for a good quality education. Not so much in the US and UK. This allows the individual to more strongly determine where they end up, rather than how wealthy their family was at birth.
Click to expand...

You said nothing about any of the points made by me or the article...
 
ataraxia said:
So in other countries where people have more social mobility, they don't have motivation or desire? The only thing that seems different is the policies.
Click to expand...

They were given free **** to get a leg up. Now that's industrious.
BTW: what are people paying in taxes in those countries?
 
don't get pregnant while you're a teenager.
Problem halved .
don't get involved with drugs.

Problem halved again.

Don't drop out of high school.

Problem almost gone.
 
WCH said:
I know all sorts of people who didn't rely on education to become successful. They worked hard.
Click to expand...

This is like someone saying "I know someone who didn't get vaccinated and never got polio."

Knowing a neighbor who did something is not a substitute for large scale evaluations of the consequences of various social policies.
 
KLATTU said:
don't get pregnant while you're a teenager.
Problem halved .
don't get involved with drugs.

Problem halved again.

Don't drop out of high school.

Problem almost gone.
Click to expand...

So if a kid is not getting enough to eat at his elementary school, that's not an issue we should address. Got it.
 
ataraxia said:
This is like someone saying "I know someone who didn't get vaccinated and never got polio."

Knowing a neighbor who did something is not a substitute for large scale evaluations of the consequences of various social policies.
Click to expand...

Yea.... it does. In the blue collar world, it does.
 
KLATTU said:
don't get pregnant while you're a teenager.
Problem halved .
don't get involved with drugs.

Problem halved again.

Don't drop out of high school.

Problem almost gone.
Click to expand...

The Blue collar world cheered when Trump went in and saved 500 jobs in that Carrier plant in Indiana early in his presidency.

Did you know that same plant just sent another 200 jobs to Mexico recently, and is planning on closing that whole plant altogether by next year? Where is Trump to help them now? I bet they are not covering this story on Fox.

With this kind of thinking, the blue collar is just shooting itself in its own foot. And what's tragic is to watch with what enthusiasm and glee they are doing it with... it really would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.
 
KLATTU said:
don't get pregnant while you're a teenager.
Problem halved .
don't get involved with drugs.

Problem halved again.

Don't drop out of high school.

Problem almost gone.
Click to expand...

Those things are a two way street. A vicious cycle. Poverty leads to such behaviors, which leads to more poverty. Sure one or two people might be able to pull themselves up by the bootstraps from such situations. But it only gets worse if you just leave it all alone.

Don't confuse an incompetent government with a free one.
 
WCH said:
Based on what the father made as opposed to their sons? If they're figuring in what those sons and daughter make living at home with their parents. LOL. IMO, it has nothing to do with "pulling yourself up"

Look at the board of directors for EPI. More than a few commie, worker's party types. They don't want anyone achieving too much.
Click to expand...

haha... I'm not familiar with the EPI. Nor am I a fan of communism. But damn, the conversation goes there faster than a lefty calling Trump a Nazi after praising white supremacists with you guys, doesn't it? :lol: Just playin, W, it's all good.

Just don't let the fear of communism close you down completely. None of those countries would self identify as communist, and look nothing like the USSR, so maybe give a bit of thought to their methodology...might make things better, who knows?
 
celticwar17 said:
That economic organization is known to be left leaning, but regardless, lets address the facts....

https://www.heritage.org/internatio...g-international-comparisons-economic-mobility

This article has some excellent rebuttals ... specifically the "The Accuracy of Economic Mobility May Be Affected by Demography and Country Size" portion.

Comparing statistics of countries with the population size of Washington DC.... to an entire country like the USA...is rather puzzling. Western Europe would be a more accurate comparison with(397 million people). Otherwise, selecting Denmark is like just cherry picking the best city in the USA for economic mobility and consider that as a valid representation of the entire USA's economic policies.

If you view Europe as an integrated marketplace, it has larger wage inequality than the USA.
Click to expand...

Canada is 4th on the list, and is the 2nd biggest country in the world.... Just sayin'... ;)

(PS: Just being flippant, Celtic, I'll check out the article when I get home...hehe)
 
OlNate said:
haha... I'm not familiar with the EPI. Nor am I a fan of communism. But damn, the conversation goes there faster than a lefty calling Trump a Nazi after praising white supremacists with you guys, doesn't it? :lol: Just playin, W, it's all good.

Just don't let the fear of communism close you down completely. None of those countries would self identify as communist, and look nothing like the USSR, so maybe give a bit of thought to their methodology...might make things better, who knows?
Click to expand...

I'm less concerned about what happens in other countries and more concerned about where these people are trying to take this one.
 
ataraxia said:
Those things are a two way street. A vicious cycle. Poverty leads to such behaviors, which leads to more poverty. Sure one or two people might be able to pull themselves up by the bootstraps from such situations. But it only gets worse if you just leave it all alone.

Don't confuse an incompetent government with a free one.
Click to expand...

BLA BLa blah . We need more government.Because that's worked out SO well . Broken record.
 
WCH said:
I'm less concerned about what happens in other countries and more concerned about where these people are trying to take this one.
Click to expand...


To the cleaners!
 
WCH said:
I'm less concerned about what happens in other countries and more concerned about where these people are trying to take this one.
Click to expand...

It's OK to sometimes look around and see what others are doing right to see if you can learn from them.

If someone somewhere is doing things which are useful and leading to good outcomes, only an ideological zealot and fanatic would turn a blind eye to them and say they don't care.
 
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