• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Liberals Can't Have Their Cake And Eat It To


Zero good points made in this article. Let's go through a few...

"as if being conservative is now a de facto threat to other students."

Sadly, yes it is. In this day and age of Trump, the Republican party could realistically be described as a hate group dressed up as a political party. It is nothing more than cognitive dissonance that keeps the average Republican from recognizing how much their views align with the modern KKK, Neo-Nazis, and general white supremacists.

"the school reserves the right to refuse access to open mics based on the content of the speech."

Yes, that's correct. As an institution of higher education, they are not only within their right, but it is, in fact, their duty to ensure that there is educational value in the speech and that it is not simply overt hate speech. As pointed out earlier the current iteration of the Republican party under Donald Trump is nothing more than a hate group dressed up as a political party, and their so-called "arguments" are nothing more than gay-bashing, misogyny, racism, Islamophobia, and xenophobia.

"Liberals appear to want to preserve the right to deny service to conservatives on the basis of political sensibilities while preventing conservatives from denying service based on religious sensibilities"

Yes, that's correct. You see a religion is a protected class because it's not something you can really choose to be a part of. Religions are based on faith. Faith by definition is something that there is no evidence in support of. It's something you just irrationally believe. Often times because it was brainwashed into you from the time you were a baby. A political affiliation, however, is absolutely a choice, although listening to most Trump supporters it sounds more like a religion which is clearly not based on evidence technically it should be possible for facts and evidence to change your mind, and therefore you are responsible for it.

Now, the good news is that for Republicans if you don't want to be discriminated against you can simply not wear stupid MAGA hats, or bring up political topics when you enter a bar or other establishment. If you're not intentionally trying to antagonize the other patrons then there wouldn't be a problem, and most business owners would have absolutely no idea who you were or who you voted for.

Maybe to put in another way for you. Should a bar be allowed to reject patrons wearing known gang colors? Should they be able to reject them based upon their known membership in a gang? At this point in time, the tribalistic and antagonistic nature of Trump's Republican party put them on par with a street gang that's intentionally looking for a fight. If not a fist fight they are certainly going out of their way to purposely piss people off.

Trolling is illegal on most forums like this one for a reason. It's designed to elicit an emotional response. Your boy Milo who is discussed in this article has referred to himself affectionately as a "Troll." His words. Why would a bar which already has issues with drunken fights want to make matters worse by intentionally allowing in someone knowns specifically for stirring up anger?

"It is not a distinction drawn along religious freedom lines. It is all about free speech."

Again, horribly wrong. Free speech doesn't mean the freedom to say whatever you want whenever you want without consequences. It means the freedom to say whatever you want whenever you want without consequences FROM THE GOVERNMENT. If you are specifically attacking, trolling, flaming, or antagonizing the other customers, patrons or students in a private business then the owners of that business have every right to throw you out. But if you're being respectful then the pure and simple fact that you're gay, black, latino, female, Muslim, Atheist... cannot itself be used as a justification for discrimination.

Again...take off the stupid MAGA hat, and nobody would even know you're an idiot...I mean Republican.

"That decision would also apply to a Jewish bakery asked to make a “Mein Kampf” cake"

In this case, a Mein Kampf cake would be a political expression. You could not require a Jewish bakery to make such a cake. However, if two Nazis just happen to be getting married and they asked for a cake that has nothing to do with Hitler or Nazis then no they couldn't refuse.

"or an African American bakery asked to celebrate a skinhead wedding. Would they also be denied the right to refuse?"

If there was nothing on the cake that amounted to hate speech or political speech then no they could not refuse. However if the cake had an image of a burning flag, or they wanted the bride and groom to be wearing white hoods or something then yes.
 
Last edited:
Very good points in the article.
Questionably. It demonstrates common ignorance (or wilful dishonesty) in relation to the same-sex wedding cake case. The religious beliefs of the business owner are irrelevant to the law. Businesses are not permitted to discriminate against customers on the stated grounds, full stop. It doesn’t matter why they want to discriminate or even if they don’t consider it discrimination. If the consequence is treating customers differently on the basis of those grounds, it is against the law.

A Christian baker can’t refuse to make same-sex wedding cakes because it goes against their faith and a non-religious baker can’t refuse to make same-sex wedding cakes because it goes against their personal beliefs. A Christian baker can refuse to make a “Mein Kampf” cake (for anyone) because it goes against their faith and a non-religious baker can refuse to make a “Mein Kampf” cake (for anyone) because it goes against their personal beliefs.

There are some fair points of discussion regarding preventing people speaking at events due to their politics, though I suspect it’d go both ways (there just seems to be less desire for liberals to speak at conservative institutions, or at least less noise about it). There’s no real connection between that and the baker case (and others like it) though, not least because there’s no real connection between the different people involved in them. You can’t just stick a generic label on them all to declare them all guilty of shared offences.
 
Zero good points made in this article. Let's go through a few...

"as if being conservative is now a de facto threat to other students."

Sadly, yes it is. In this day and age of Trump, the Republican party could realistically be described as a hate group dressed up as a political party. It is nothing more than cognitive dissonance that keeps the average Republican from recognizing how much their views align with the modern KKK, Neo-Nazis, and general white supremacists.

"the school reserves the right to refuse access to open mics based on the content of the speech."

Yes, that's correct. As an institution of higher education, they are not only within their right, but it is, in fact, their duty to ensure that there is educational value in the speech and that it is not simply overt hate speech. As pointed out earlier the current iteration of the Republican party under Donald Trump is nothing more than a hate group dressed up as a political party, and their so-called "arguments" are nothing more than gay-bashing, misogyny, racism, Islamophobia, and xenophobia.

"Liberals appear to want to preserve the right to deny service to conservatives on the basis of political sensibilities while preventing conservatives from denying service based on religious sensibilities"

Yes, that's correct. You see a religion is a protected class because it's not something you can really choose to be a part of. Religions are based on faith. Faith by definition is something that there is no evidence in support of. It's something you just irrationally believe. Often times because it was brainwashed into you from the time you were a baby. A political affiliation, however, is absolutely a choice, although listening to most Trump supporters it sounds more like a religion which is clearly not based on evidence technically it should be possible for facts and evidence to change your mind, and therefore you are responsible for it.

Now, the good news is that for Republicans if you don't want to be discriminated against you can simply not wear stupid MAGA hats, or bring up political topics when you enter a bar or other establishment. If you're not intentionally trying to antagonize the other patrons then there wouldn't be a problem, and most business owners would have absolutely no idea who you were or who you voted for.

Maybe to put in another way for you. Should a bar be allowed to reject patrons wearing known gang colors? Should they be able to reject them based upon their known membership in a gang? At this point in time, the tribalistic and antagonistic nature of Trump's Republican party put them on par with a street gang that's intentionally looking for a fight. If not a fist fight they are certainly going out of their way to purposely piss people off.

Trolling is illegal on most forums like this one for a reason. It's designed to elicit an emotional response. Your boy Milo who is discussed in this article has referred to himself affectionately as a "Troll." His words. Why would a bar which already has issues with drunken fights want to make matters worse by intentionally allowing in someone knowns specifically for stirring up anger?

"It is not a distinction drawn along religious freedom lines. It is all about free speech."

Again, horribly wrong. Free speech doesn't mean the freedom to say whatever you want whenever you want without consequences. It means the freedom to say whatever you want whenever you want without consequences FROM THE GOVERNMENT. If you are specifically attacking, trolling, flaming, or antagonizing the other customers, patrons or students in a private business then the owners of that business have every right to throw you out. But if you're being respectful then the pure and simple fact that you're gay, black, latino, female, Muslim, Atheist... cannot itself be used as a justification for discrimination.

Again...take off the stupid MAGA hat, and nobody would even know you're an idiot...I mean Republican.

"That decision would also apply to a Jewish bakery asked to make a “Mein Kampf” cake"

In this case, a Mein Kampf cake would be a political expression. You could not require a Jewish bakery to make such a cake. However, if two Nazis just happen to be getting married and they asked for a cake that has nothing to do with Hitler or Nazis then no they couldn't refuse.

"or an African American bakery asked to celebrate a skinhead wedding. Would they also be denied the right to refuse?"

If there was nothing on the cake that amounted to hate speech or political speech then no they could not refuse. However if the cake had an image of a burning flag, or they wanted the bride and groom to be wearing white hoods or something then yes.

LOL. Of course, being a liberal, you would think all that.
 
Questionably. It demonstrates common ignorance (or wilful dishonesty) in relation to the same-sex wedding cake case. The religious beliefs of the business owner are irrelevant to the law. Businesses are not permitted to discriminate against customers on the stated grounds, full stop. It doesn’t matter why they want to discriminate or even if they don’t consider it discrimination. If the consequence is treating customers differently on the basis of those grounds, it is against the law.

A Christian baker can’t refuse to make same-sex wedding cakes because it goes against their faith and a non-religious baker can’t refuse to make same-sex wedding cakes because it goes against their personal beliefs. A Christian baker can refuse to make a “Mein Kampf” cake (for anyone) because it goes against their faith and a non-religious baker can refuse to make a “Mein Kampf” cake (for anyone) because it goes against their personal beliefs.

There are some fair points of discussion regarding preventing people speaking at events due to their politics, though I suspect it’d go both ways (there just seems to be less desire for liberals to speak at conservative institutions, or at least less noise about it). There’s no real connection between that and the baker case (and others like it) though, not least because there’s no real connection between the different people involved in them. You can’t just stick a generic label on them all to declare them all guilty of shared offences.

So, why would it be legal to throw out people in an establishment with MAGA hats?
 
So, why would it be legal to throw out people in an establishment with MAGA hats?
By default it’s legal for a private business to refuse service to anyone. There is a specific exception to that default for discrimination on the basis of specified characteristics. They vary by jurisdiction but nowhere do they include perceived political affiliation (or choice of headwear ;) ). That doesn’t mean it was right, only that it was legal.
 
The article references the cake story that took place in CO where LGBT people are a protected class. Businesses are not allowed to discriminate against protected classes. As far as I know there is no protected class for people that wear MAGA hats.
 
So, why would it be legal to throw out people in an establishment with MAGA hats?

Because they are being intentionally antagonistic, and political affiliation is not considered a protected class. When you vote you make a clear choice of who to align yourself with, and the decisions made by the leaders you elect have consequences that potentially hurt other people. If you support a political party that is clearly trying to undermine the rights of gays, blacks, women, Latios, Muslims, Atheists... then those groups have a perfectly good reason to be angry at you for that.

Put it another way. Should the NRA or a gun club be allowed to kick me out for wearing a Hillary hat? Sure. Now of course if I was walking into a gun club I likely would not wear clothing that easily identified myself as a liberal unless I was intentionally trying to antagonize people and start an argument.
 
LOL. Of course, being a liberal, you would think all that.

Yes, as a liberal I generally do make sense, and I am correct about most things. Unlike you, I fully understand what political correctness is, and why it's important so it really shouldn't be a surprise that I can explain it to you so well.
 
By default it’s legal for a private business to refuse service to anyone. There is a specific exception to that default for discrimination on the basis of specified characteristics. They vary by jurisdiction but nowhere do they include perceived political affiliation (or choice of headwear ;) ). That doesn’t mean it was right, only that it was legal.

So, you're saying that if a group of white males were thrown out of an establishment because they were wearing MAGA hats that would be legal but if a group of women, blacks, or gays were thrown out of an establishment for wearing MAGA hats, that would be illegal.
 
Because they are being intentionally antagonistic, and political affiliation is not considered a protected class. When you vote you make a clear choice of who to align yourself with, and the decisions made by the leaders you elect have consequences that potentially hurt other people. If you support a political party that is clearly trying to undermine the rights of gays, blacks, women, Latios, Muslims, Atheists... then those groups have a perfectly good reason to be angry at you for that.

Put it another way. Should the NRA or a gun club be allowed to kick me out for wearing a Hillary hat? Sure. Now of course if I was walking into a gun club I likely would not wear clothing that easily identified myself as a liberal unless I was intentionally trying to antagonize people and start an argument.

So, you're saying that if a group of white males were thrown out of an establishment because they were wearing MAGA hats that would be legal but if a group of women, blacks, or gays were thrown out of an establishment for wearing MAGA hats, that would be illegal.
 
Yes, as a liberal I generally do make sense, and I am correct about most things. Unlike you, I fully understand what political correctness is, and why it's important so it really shouldn't be a surprise that I can explain it to you so well.

LOL. Someone who says they are correct about most things has obviously got a problem.
 
LOL. Someone who says they are correct about most things has obviously got a problem.

Really? Cause that sounds like exactly what Trump does all the time. The difference is that I put forth a rational argument for why you should accept my conclusion rather than just say it's so. And for the record, you have yet to put forth any kind of rebuttal to my argument because you can't.
 
So, you're saying that if a group of white males was thrown out of an establishment because they were wearing MAGA hats that would be legal but if a group of women, blacks, or gays were thrown out of an establishment for wearing MAGA hats, that would be illegal.

Nope, you can be thrown out of an establishment for wearing MAGA hats regardless of your skin color, sex, or sexual orientation. The decision is being made based on the political affiliation, and that is not a protected class because it is very clearly a choice that you made which can negatively impact others. If a club decided to throw Kanye West out because he supported Trump that would be well within their right. If they wanted to throw him out because he's a known idiot that's their choices as well. The key is that they need to have a specific and valid reason to not like him or want him around other than his skin color, race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation.
 
So, you're saying that if a group of white males were thrown out of an establishment because they were wearing MAGA hats that would be legal but if a group of women, blacks, or gays were thrown out of an establishment for wearing MAGA hats, that would be illegal.
No.

If any group is thrown out because they’re wearing the hats, that would be legal (but not necessarily right).
If any group is thrown out because of their race or gender (including white males), that would be illegal.

The motive of the business is the key (one of the reasons such cases are difficult to sort out). If an establishment threw you out because they thought you were gay, they’d be guilty of discrimination even if they were mistaken.
 
Goofy thread.

When do we burn the crosses?
 
"That decision would also apply to a Jewish bakery asked to make a “Mein Kampf” cake"

In this case, a Mein Kampf cake would be a political expression. You could not require a Jewish bakery to make such a cake. However, if two Nazis just happen to be getting married and they asked for a cake that has nothing to do with Hitler or Nazis then no they couldn't refuse.

"or an African American bakery asked to celebrate a skinhead wedding. Would they also be denied the right to refuse?"

If there was nothing on the cake that amounted to hate speech or political speech then no they could not refuse. However if the cake had an image of a burning flag, or they wanted the bride and groom to be wearing white hoods or something then yes.
As you said...

What the establishment does for someone it must do for anyone. If an establishment does not make Hitler cakes, they don't make Hitler cakes. It doesn't matter who asks, the customer is irrelevant; it has nothing to do with discriminating against customers.
 
The article references the cake story that took place in CO where LGBT people are a protected class. Businesses are not allowed to discriminate against protected classes. As far as I know there is no protected class for people that wear MAGA hats.

LGBTQ in Colorado are a protected class like undocumenteds in California are a protected class? IMO, ultimately, it's up to the fed.
 
As you said...

What the establishment does for someone it must do for anyone. If an establishment does not make Hitler cakes, they don't make Hitler cakes. It doesn't matter who asks, the customer is irrelevant; it has nothing to do with discriminating against customers.

It's slightly more than that. An artist does not have to allow their art to be used for advocating political positions they disagree with. However, a wedding cake does not advocate for a political position. It celebrates a legal wedding. Now if the cake said something like "I support Gay marriage!" then the bakery would be within their right to refuse.
 
It's slightly more than that. An artist does not have to allow their art to be used for advocating political positions they disagree with. However, a wedding cake does not advocate for a political position. It celebrates a legal wedding. Now if the cake said something like "I support Gay marriage!" then the bakery would be within their right to refuse.
Artwork being using without authorization aside.
As I said... If an establishment does not make cakes that say "gay", then they don't. Not for anyone. It's not a product they provide.
 

"That decision would also apply to a Jewish bakery asked to make a “Mein Kampf” cake"

In this case, a Mein Kampf cake would be a political expression. You could not require a Jewish bakery to make such a cake. However, if two Nazis just happen to be getting married and they asked for a cake that has nothing to do with Hitler or Nazis then no they couldn't refuse.

"or an African American bakery asked to celebrate a skinhead wedding. Would they also be denied the right to refuse?"

If there was nothing on the cake that amounted to hate speech or political speech then no they could not refuse. However if the cake had an image of a burning flag, or they wanted the bride and groom to be wearing white hoods or something then yes.

Honest question for the maker of the OP, what do you disagree about in the above comments?
 
LGBTQ in Colorado are a protected class like undocumenteds in California are a protected class? IMO, ultimately, it's up to the fed.

It's less controversial to protect legal citizens from discrimination on the bases of their sexuality than it is to establish protections for illegal immigrants. I'm fine with sanctuary cities, but I'm not sure I would compare it to LGBTQ protections.
 
So, why would it be legal to throw out people in an establishment with MAGA hats?


Businesses are allowed to have dress codes. Remember the common "no shirt, no shoes, no service"?

In the case of MAGA hats, that business probably experienced too many bar fights because of such hats, and they are just trying to keep the peace in their establishment, which they have every right to do.


A business has the right to refuse service to anyone, as long as it is not based on race, creed, etc...
 
Back
Top Bottom