• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Can A President Break The Law

biff_poindexter

biff_poindexter

Banned
Joined
Apr 26, 2018
Messages
907
Reaction score
323
Location
Nampa, ID
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
https://heft.live/2017/01/30/can-a-president-break-the-law/

Nixon famously believed and said "The president can't break the law" -- was he right?

So far there is no evidence that Trump did anything illegal, but even if he did do something illegal, he is the President so it doesn't matter anyway. Which is why I don't understand all this drama over whether or not Trump will fire Mueller, or whether or not the President obstructed justice -- He is the president, he can fire whoever he wants in the Justice Department and as Trump himself said, it is impossible for him to obstruct justice.

Nixon is often believed to be the most corrupt president since he was forced to resigned because of his scandals -- but do you believe today's GOP and GOP voters would have had a problem with what Nixon did? I certainly don't think they would.
 
biff_poindexter said:
https://heft.live/2017/01/30/can-a-president-break-the-law/

Nixon famously believed and said "The president can't break the law" -- was he right?

So far there is no evidence that Trump did anything illegal, but even if he did do something illegal, he is the President so it doesn't matter anyway. Which is why I don't understand all this drama over whether or not Trump will fire Mueller, or whether or not the President obstructed justice -- He is the president, he can fire whoever he wants in the Justice Department and as Trump himself said, it is impossible for him to obstruct justice.

Nixon is often believed to be the most corrupt president since he was forced to resigned because of his scandals -- but do you believe today's GOP and GOP voters would have had a problem with what Nixon did? I certainly don't think they would.
Click to expand...

On your last point, I agree, today's GOP don't mind a criminal lying scumbag president. As for as the most corrupt president, I believe Trump will replace Nixon with that award.

Both Nixon and Trump are wrong. Trump is wrong because one of the articles of impeachment for Nixon was just that, obstruction of justice. Nixon was wrong as evidence by his stepping down to thwart the impeachment process.

You can't say "no evidence president did anything legal" until Mueller is finished with his investigation. He's the kind of professional who doesn't let you know in advance of what he's got until the indictments are filed.


Trump can fire whomever he wants as long as the firing is not done with corrupt intent.

Corrupt intent would be, I dunno, obstruction of justice, maybe? ya think?


And the answer to your question is "NO!". If anyone proved that Nixon was wrong it was Nixon, himself, when he stepped down in order to avoid an impeachment process. In order to preempt any charges, Ford pardoned Nixon. You don't pardon innocent people.
 
Last edited:
A Sitting Presidents Amenability to Indictment and Criminal Prosecution

The indictment or criminal prosecution of a sitting President would unconstitutionally undermine the capacity of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned functions

October 16, 2000
Memorandum Opinion for the Attorney General

https://www.justice.gov/file/19351/download
 
biff_poindexter said:
https://heft.live/2017/01/30/can-a-president-break-the-law/

Nixon famously believed and said "The president can't break the law" -- was he right?

So far there is no evidence that Trump did anything illegal, but even if he did do something illegal, he is the President so it doesn't matter anyway. Which is why I don't understand all this drama over whether or not Trump will fire Mueller, or whether or not the President obstructed justice -- He is the president, he can fire whoever he wants in the Justice Department and as Trump himself said, it is impossible for him to obstruct justice.

Nixon is often believed to be the most corrupt president since he was forced to resigned because of his scandals -- but do you believe today's GOP and GOP voters would have had a problem with what Nixon did? I certainly don't think they would.
Click to expand...

I think it depends on what the law is, and whether anyone cares to pursue some type of punishment. For example, Bill Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, but no criminal charges applied. Obama violated the War Powers Resolution, but no one seemed to care, although there were early cries of "foul." So, if Trump breaks a law, I think it will just depend on what the law is and whether there's enough support in Congress to pursue some sort of action against him.

Presidents can get away with a lot.
 
Common Sense 1 said:
A Sitting Presidents Amenability to Indictment and Criminal Prosecution

The indictment or criminal prosecution of a sitting President would unconstitutionally undermine the capacity of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned functions

October 16, 2000
Memorandum Opinion for the Attorney General

https://www.justice.gov/file/19351/download
Click to expand...


That's an opinion. The president could be indicted, but it would be challenged and it would be taken to the Supreme Court. So, the point is, it is not settled law until it is ruled on by SCOTUS, which has yet to rule on it ( because a sitting president has never been indicted ).

If Trump is indicted, it will be upheld by SCOTUS for, I believe, two main reasons:

1. The argument of "undermine/interfere with the prez's ability to execute constitutionally assigned functions" can only be predicated on the idea that the President doesn't have enough time available to deal with such things. This has already been shot down by US vs Nixon. Moreover, the prez spends about a third of his time on the golf course, so it's a weak argument.

2. SCOTUS will uphold the indictment because of the overall principle that "no man is above the law".
 
Last edited:
HowardBThiname said:
I think it depends on what the law is, and whether anyone cares to pursue some type of punishment. For example, Bill Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, but no criminal charges applied. Obama violated the War Powers Resolution, but no one seemed to care, although there were early cries of "foul." So, if Trump breaks a law, I think it will just depend on what the law is and whether there's enough support in Congress to pursue some sort of action against him.

Presidents can get away with a lot.
Click to expand...

This president has gotten away with far to much, its time to put an end to this American disaster.
 
biff_poindexter said:
https://heft.live/2017/01/30/can-a-president-break-the-law/

Nixon famously believed and said "The president can't break the law" -- was he right?

So far there is no evidence that Trump did anything illegal, but even if he did do something illegal, he is the President so it doesn't matter anyway. Which is why I don't understand all this drama over whether or not Trump will fire Mueller, or whether or not the President obstructed justice -- He is the president, he can fire whoever he wants in the Justice Department and as Trump himself said, it is impossible for him to obstruct justice.

Nixon is often believed to be the most corrupt president since he was forced to resigned because of his scandals -- but do you believe today's GOP and GOP voters would have had a problem with what Nixon did? I certainly don't think they would.
Click to expand...



Of course they would have a problem with what the Nixon administration did. People were convicted of multiple felony's. Nixon could have been charged after he left office but President Ford pardoned him.

It seems that the president can not be charge criminally while president but he can certainly be charged after he leaves the office. Congress has the remedy if a president needs to be removed from office. Impeachment!
 
Common Sense 1 said:
A Sitting Presidents Amenability to Indictment and Criminal Prosecution

The indictment or criminal prosecution of a sitting President would unconstitutionally undermine the capacity of the executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned functions

October 16, 2000
Memorandum Opinion for the Attorney General

https://www.justice.gov/file/19351/download
Click to expand...

Any criminal indictment simply must wait until the POTUS is out of office either through defeat, resignation or a successful impeachment.

POTUS can be subpoenaed and forced to testify however, in a civil suit. Precedent established IIRC...with the Clinton v. Jones
 
OscarLevant said:
That's an opinion. The president could be indicted, but it would be challenged and it would be taken to the Supreme Court. So, the point is, it is not settled law until it is ruled on by SCOTUS, which has yet to rule on it ( because a sitting president has never been indicted ).

If Trump is indicted, it will be upheld by SCOTUS for, I believe, two main reasons:

1. The argument of "undermine/interfere with the prez's ability to execute constitutionally assigned functions" can only be predicated on the idea that the President doesn't have enough time available to deal with such things. This has already been shot down by US vs Nixon. Moreover, the prez spends about a third of his time on the golf course, so it's a weak argument.

2. SCOTUS will uphold the indictment because of the overall principle that "no man is above the law".
Click to expand...

Wrong on both counts! According to justice department guidelines they won't charge a sitting president. Read the posted link.
 
Pedestrian said:
Any criminal indictment simply must wait until the POTUS is out of office either through defeat, resignation or a successful impeachment.

POTUS can be subpoenaed and forced to testify however, in a civil suit. Precedent established IIRC...with the Clinton v. Jones
Click to expand...



Absolutely correct! Nice to see correct information and not some emotional plea why President trump will be charged. :2razz:
 
Every president has broken the law- it seems part of the job.

Having read about what Nixon did, Trump is a boy scout compared to him.
 
Common Sense 1 said:
[/B]

Of course they would have a problem with what the Nixon administration did. People were convicted of multiple felony's. Nixon could have been charged after he left office but President Ford pardoned him.

It seems that the president can not be charge criminally while president but he can certainly be charged after he leaves the office. Congress has the remedy if a president needs to be removed from office. Impeachment!
Click to expand...

People are charged with multiple felonies now -- and back during the Nixon days, we are fooling ourselves if we believe that the Trump GOP would not find a way to justify breaking into the DNC and covering it up -- especially if back during the Nixon days, they could simply say "...but Hillary!!" - who was alive back then.
 
Common Sense 1 said:
Wrong on both counts! According to justice department guidelines they won't charge a sitting president. Read the posted link.
Click to expand...


It was written 18 years ago, it's a guideline. Who knows what the future brings? If the prez is caught in some incredibly bad crimes, dereliction of duty, conspiracy, all kinds of stuff, especially when it's fairly clear to many that he is a threat to national security, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't allow an indictment, but that's just me.

Maybe Mueller won't find anything, but if he did, and if it were really bad, guidelines can be broken, especially when the prez has been treating the DOJ like merde ( 'scuse my french ).
 
biff_poindexter said:
https://heft.live/2017/01/30/can-a-president-break-the-law/

Nixon famously believed and said "The president can't break the law" -- was he right?

So far there is no evidence that Trump did anything illegal, but even if he did do something illegal, he is the President so it doesn't matter anyway. Which is why I don't understand all this drama over whether or not Trump will fire Mueller, or whether or not the President obstructed justice -- He is the president, he can fire whoever he wants in the Justice Department and as Trump himself said, it is impossible for him to obstruct justice.

Nixon is often believed to be the most corrupt president since he was forced to resigned because of his scandals -- but do you believe today's GOP and GOP voters would have had a problem with what Nixon did? I certainly don't think they would.
Click to expand...

The law is what rules.

Ask King Charles I.
 
OscarLevant said:
It was written 18 years ago, it's a guideline. Who knows what the future brings? If the prez is caught in some incredibly bad crimes, dereliction of duty, conspiracy, all kinds of stuff, especially when it's fairly clear to many that he is a threat to national security, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't allow an indictment, but that's just me.

Maybe Mueller won't find anything, but if he did, and if it were really bad, guidelines can be broken, especially when the prez has been treating the DOJ like merde ( 'scuse my french ).
Click to expand...

So it's guidance used by the DOJ! The DOJ follows that document.

Maybe or if ........... ??
 
Can A President Break The Law
Click to expand...
Of course, like anyone, a POTUS can break the law. L'etat c'est moi is not consistent with the the nature of the U.S. presidency.
 
OscarLevant said:
On your last point, I agree, today's GOP don't mind a criminal lying scumbag president. As for as the most corrupt president, I believe Trump will replace Nixon with that award.

Both Nixon and Trump are wrong. Trump is wrong because one of the articles of impeachment for Nixon was just that, obstruction of justice. Nixon was wrong as evidence by his stepping down to thwart the impeachment process.

You can't say "no evidence president did anything legal" until Mueller is finished with his investigation. He's the kind of professional who doesn't let you know in advance of what he's got until the indictments are filed.


Trump can fire whomever he wants as long as the firing is not done with corrupt intent.

Corrupt intent would be, I dunno, obstruction of justice, maybe? ya think?


And the answer to your question is "NO!". If anyone proved that Nixon was wrong it was Nixon, himself, when he stepped down in order to avoid an impeachment process. In order to preempt any charges, Ford pardoned Nixon. You don't pardon innocent people.
Click to expand...

It does not matter what trump does, the GOP Senate will never find him guilty even if the House goes Dem and they impeach him. That is the truth of it. Trump was always right about one thing, he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and the GOP would still find him not guilty of any crime that would remove him from office. Isn't that a shame for this country!
 
independentusa said:
It does not matter what trump does, the GOP Senate will never find him guilty even if the House goes Dem and they impeach him. That is the truth of it. Trump was always right about one thing, he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and the GOP would still find him not guilty of any crime that would remove him from office. Isn't that a shame for this country!
Click to expand...


I'll have to concede, and yes, it's a shame, and why I assert that America is currently in decline.

I'm praying for both houses, but it's not likely for them both to be dem.
 
biff_poindexter said:
Nixon famously believed and said "The president can't break the law" -- was he right?
Click to expand...

A president can indeed break the law. However, arrest and detainment are not permitted. Impeachment is the Constitutional trial mechanism rather than a criminal courtroom.

I have extreme doubt that the current highly partisan GOP majority 115th Congress would entertain the impeachment mechanism vis-a-vis president Trump.
 
biff_poindexter said:
https://heft.live/2017/01/30/can-a-president-break-the-law/

Nixon famously believed and said "The president can't break the law" -- was he right?

So far there is no evidence that Trump did anything illegal, but even if he did do something illegal, he is the President so it doesn't matter anyway. Which is why I don't understand all this drama over whether or not Trump will fire Mueller, or whether or not the President obstructed justice -- He is the president, he can fire whoever he wants in the Justice Department and as Trump himself said, it is impossible for him to obstruct justice.

Nixon is often believed to be the most corrupt president since he was forced to resigned because of his scandals -- but do you believe today's GOP and GOP voters would have had a problem with what Nixon did? I certainly don't think they would.
Click to expand...

The question is not whether he can break the law, the question is can he be prosecuted for doing so. He certainly can be indicted after he leaves office. Clinton broke the law, was impeached, lost his law license, fined, etc. Main problem here is that the GOP lacks the integrity to pursue any illegal activities as they did both Clinton's, and Obama. Trump has already violated the law, and the Constitution, with his actions in Syria, and nothing will be done by the corrupt Republicans.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom