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Do the West have a historical debt to Jews?

shanners said:
That was a rigged vote. Countries like Sri Lanka (Ceylon) were threatened: vote against it and you'll receive no more aid. That did the trick.
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Perhaps. But I do not think that is wrong. If a country wants aid from another country, and votes against the aiding country's desires or interests, the aiding country is well within its rights to cut off aid.

But I do not think the United Nations, in my view, holds any legitimacy whatsoever. The sooner it is dissolved, the better.
 
Felis Leo said:
First, who in the "West" kisses Israel's ass? Israel is the most hated, protested, and condemned country in the world.

Second, who gave Muslim land to "outsiders"? Jews had been living in the Palestine Mandate long before it became Israel.

Third, it is clear by Saudi Arabia's actions recently and the actions of many of Israel's neighbors, most Arab nations do not care a flying fig about the Palestinians. So to claim that the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis, and the United States siding with Israel (which we don't; we generally side with Saudi Arabia) seems to be bespeak a baleful ignorance.
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You failed to understand my post at all. That is how the Arabs view the situation, not myself. Calm down !! I wont ask for an apology, though you owe me one
 
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Felis Leo said:
First, who in the "West" kisses Israel's ass?
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The US and its allies, primarily.

Second, who gave Muslim land to "outsiders"? Jews had been living in the Palestine Mandate long before it became Israel.
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An over-simplification.

Third, it is clear by Saudi Arabia's actions recently and the actions of many of Israel's neighbors, most Arab nations do not care a flying fig about the Palestinians. So to claim that the conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis, and the United States siding with Israel (which we don't; we generally side with Saudi Arabia) seems to be bespeak a baleful ignorance.
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You're talking about the actions of the leaders of those Arab nations, which generally do not equate to the attitudes of their citizens.
 
Felis Leo said:
As I see it, there's plenty of room for both.
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I think it's a bad idea to force people to live among those they hate. Palestinians and Jews seem to hate each other a lot.
 
UtahBill said:
Jewish people far outdistance all others on the list of great scientists
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Can you name any "great scientists" before the 1800s?

I ask because the very first Hebrew work on geography, published in Russia in the early 1800s, complained in its preface that many great rabbis were denying the existence of the American continent, saying that such a thing was impossible.
 
Felis Leo said:
Perhaps. But I do not think that is wrong. If a country wants aid from another country, and votes against the aiding country's desires or interests, the aiding country is well within its rights to cut off aid.
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To cut off humanitarian aid, food etc in such regard is deplorable.

But I do not think the United Nations, in my view, holds any legitimacy whatsoever.
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Then why does the US, by dint of its position on the Security Council, veto so many resolutions?
 
Wan said:
Hello. A few days ago, someone said that the West have a historical debt to the Jews. I assume he was talking about all the bad things White people have ever done to Jews, things like pogroms from the past, and the Holocaust, to name a few.

Personally, I think he is going overboard. It's certainly bad that the West have done some nasty things to Jews, but I feel that as long as they make sure to never repeat history, it should be good enough. To feel that they are now "indebted" to Jews just does not make sense to me.

Your thoughts?
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Really? Someone said that? Who? I could be wrong but my spidey sense is telling me you might be trying to stoke a little anti Jewish sentiment.
 
Felis Leo said:
Oh lovely. One of those conversations.

Well, before I begin let me lay my cards out on the table and say what no one has asked of me, in case I am accused of being a closet-Zionist. I am not. I am an unapologetically pro-Israel Conservative Republican who believes the creation of Israel was a good thing; that the United States tacitly and begrudgingly accepting their right to exist at the United Nations in 1948 was a good thing; oh, and I also that Jews do not somehow secretly run the world solely for their own benefit and to the detriment of all other non-Jewish people. So I am not a closet Zionist. I am an open loud-and-proud non-Jewish Zionist.

With all that having been said, it must be asked, first of all, who exactly is the "West" in all this? Certainly, specific European, African and Middle Eastern governments have sought to abridge the rights of Jews, and sought their extermination. But to my knowledge, neither the United States government nor any state government within the United States, nor Canada, nor any country in the Western Hemisphere has oppressed Jews.

Do certain European governments owe debts to certain Jews, perhaps? I think the argument could certainly be made. Were Jewish families dispossessed of certain property, such as art, jewelry or other heirlooms or artifacts that could be returned to them? Absolutely. But I do not believe the "West" as a whole is somehow collectively guilty for the Holocaust or anti-Jewish oppression, or that Jews as an entire group are somehow collectively entitled to some kind of handout. I do not believe in communal blood guilt of all Westerners, any more than I believe that all Jews to this day (or any Jews to this day for that matter) are collectively responsible to this day for the death of Jesus.

It's ridiculous, and, frankly, I this whole thread seems to tailor-made to stoke anti-Jewish resentment for such presumptuousness.
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Ok, so it's not just me.
 
Jetboogieman said:
Hey look!

A holocaust denier has graced the thread with his presence.

Wow, didn’t know you’d also go after Einstein.
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What problem could he possibly have with Einstein? Hmmmm, I just don't know what it could be. The hair maybe?
 
shanners said:
Can you name any "great scientists" before the 1800s?

I ask because the very first Hebrew work on geography, published in Russia in the early 1800s, complained in its preface that many great rabbis were denying the existence of the American continent, saying that such a thing was impossible.
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got a point to make?
 
UtahBill said:
There is a long list, you want to explain why you chose justs one...
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What do you mean, a long list of search results or a long list of plagiarist scientists?
 
DaveFagan said:
It's the other way around. It is the West that freed the Jews from gas chambers, prisons, etc.
/
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Alas! by the time the "west " freed the Jews from the gas chambers they were nearly all dead. Your post implies that the alies fought WWII on behalf if the Jews. Nlot so; when Britain declared war on Germany in September 1939 the fate of the Jews did not figure in even a minor way. And, once again, we must recall that it was Germany that declared war on the USA, not the other way around.
 
spud_meister said:
Racial guilt is not a thing.
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"The West" is not a "race". Nor, for that matter are Jews. (And the whole concept of 'races' is deeply flawed. It should be abandoned).
 
jamesrage said:
The only Jews who are owed anything are the individual Jews who were wronged.
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And/or the demonstrable heirs of those individuals, surely? The notion that a debt is suddenly nullified if the one owed died seems at odds with common practice and law (and would actually create a perverse incentive to kill creditors and/or delay reparations wherever possible).

jamesrage said:
The only ones who owe a debt to the Jews are the individuals who wrong those individual Jews.
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And the institutions/governments which ordered and organized those wrongs, surely? Individual responsibility should never be ignored (which is arguably one of if not the greatest problems with the corporation), but ignoring institutional failures, crimes and debts merely because specific individuals involved have passed on seems equally absurd: As if all treaties and obligations of a country's government were suddenly nullified when a new adminstration takes over?

jamesrage said:
Most of those who were wronged are no longer around and most of those who did the wrong doing are no longer around.The idea that anyone owes a historical debt is absurd.
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In the specific case of the Holocaust, seventy years down the track - probably, yes.

Some folk have interpreted the thread as anti-semitic; an alternative possibility is that it's an deliberately absurd caricature of 'racial guilt' intended to distract from issues such as potential culpability of (for example) the Australian government for historical crimes committed by the Australian government against an indigenous population, or similar scenarios in other countries. 21st century Germans (let alone 'the West' generally) are not culpable for the crimes of an earlier generation, nor for a Nazi government which no longer exists: But the Australian government is responsible for the actions of the Australian government - good and bad alike, both its laws and its crimes - and the US government is responsible for the actions of the US government, and so on.
 
shanners said:
I just did. Now answer the question please.
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Your point is not clear, are you accusing the Jews of stealing the scientific discoveries of others? Name the others, please. Make a list. One name is not a list.
 
No one owes them anything, most that were wronged are now gone and most that did them wrong are are also dead.
The World owes you Nothing, Welcome to Reality.
 
When you cram too many people of different opinions together, there will be conflict. Current conflict is difficult enough, why drag up ancient grievances?
I can respect the accomplishments of Jews and Arabs alike. None of us should be seeking reward or recognition for the accomplishments if we didn't personally contribute to the effort.
 
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