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What is the "Deep State" any way?

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Puigb

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Not too long ago I created a thread asking if Hannity considered former president George W. Bush part of the "Deep State". I asked this because Hannity used to defend Bush all the time similar to the way he now defends Trump (though I think he actually worships Trump, but that's a topic for another thread). So, what is the "Deep State" any way, and who is part of it? I know right wing pundits include pretty much ANY Democrat as part of the "Deep State", and apparently Republicans like Mueller and Comey, and also the entire FBI are part of the "Deep State". But what about McConnell? Ryan? Cruz? Rubio? Even Mike Pence? Are they part of the "Deep State"? Maybe Sessions is? Is the "Deep State" basically ANYONE who dares to oppose the almighty Donald Trump? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
According to Wiki's sources, the Deep State is government bureaucracy and establishment politicians...

"...In the United States the term "deep state" is used within political science to describe influential decision making bodies within government that are relatively permanent and whose policies and long-term plans are unaffected by changing administrations. The term is often used in a critical sense vis-à-vis the general electorate to refer to the lack of influence popular democracy has on these institutions and the decisions they make.[1][2] The term was originally coined in a somewhat pejorative sense to refer to similar relatively invisible state apparatus in Turkey and post-Soviet Russia.[3] With respect to the United States, the concept has been discussed in numerous published works by Marc Ambinder, David W. Brown, Peter Dale Scott, Mike Lofgren, Kevin Shipp and Michael Wolff.

While definitions vary, the term gained popularity among various groups, primarily supporters of Donald Trump, Bernie Sanders, and conspiracy theorists, during the 2016 U.S. presidential election, in opposition to establishment Republican and Democratic candidates. Since Trump's inauguration, the term has been used by commentators who argue that a 'deep state', involving the FBI, CIA, NSA, former President Barack Obama, and/or Hillary Clinton, is aiming to delegitimize the Trump presidency and thwart its policy goals.[4][5]...."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state_in_the_United_States​


It goes on to say that Breitbart and Trump supporters have appropriated the term to support their conspiracy theory narratives....


"...The term has been appropriated by Breitbart News and other conservative and right-wing news outlets, where supporters of the Trump Administration have used it to support a variety of conspiracy theories.[11] It has been dismissed by authors for The New York Times[4] and The Observer.[12] University of Miami Professor Joseph Uscinski says, "The concept has always been very popular among conspiracy theorists, whether they call it a deep state or something else."[13]..."​
 
Moot said:
According to Wiki's sources, the Deep State is government bureaucracy and establishment politicians...

"...In the United States the term "deep state" is used within political science to describe influential decision making bodies within government that are relatively permanent and whose policies and long-term plans are unaffected by changing administrations. The term is often used in a critical sense vis-à-vis the general electorate to refer to the lack of influence popular democracy has on these institutions and the decisions they make.[1][2] The term was originally coined in a somewhat pejorative sense to refer to similar relatively invisible state apparatus in Turkey and post-Soviet Russia.[3] With respect to the United States, the concept has been discussed in numerous published works by Marc Ambinder, David W. Brown, Peter Dale Scott, Mike Lofgren, Kevin Shipp and Michael Wolff.

While definitions vary, the term gained popularity among various groups, primarily supporters of Donald Trump, Bernie Sanders, and conspiracy theorists, during the 2016 U.S. presidential election, in opposition to establishment Republican and Democratic candidates. Since Trump's inauguration, the term has been used by commentators who argue that a 'deep state', involving the FBI, CIA, NSA, former President Barack Obama, and/or Hillary Clinton, is aiming to delegitimize the Trump presidency and thwart its policy goals.[4][5]...."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_state_in_the_United_States​


It goes on to say that Breitbart and Trump supporters have appropriated the term to support their conspiracy theory narratives....


"...The term has been appropriated by Breitbart News and other conservative and right-wing news outlets, where supporters of the Trump Administration have used it to support a variety of conspiracy theories.[11] It has been dismissed by authors for The New York Times[4] and The Observer.[12] University of Miami Professor Joseph Uscinski says, "The concept has always been very popular among conspiracy theorists, whether they call it a deep state or something else."[13]..."​
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Yep, just as I thought. Anyone who dares to oppose Trump = Part of the "Deep State".
 
Puigb said:
Not too long ago I created a thread asking if Hannity considered former president George W. Bush part of the "Deep State". I asked this because Hannity used to defend Bush all the time similar to the way he now defends Trump (though I think he actually worships Trump, but that's a topic for another thread). So, what is the "Deep State" any way, and who is part of it? I know right wing pundits include pretty much ANY Democrat as part of the "Deep State", and apparently Republicans like Mueller and Comey, and also the entire FBI are part of the "Deep State". But what about McConnell? Ryan? Cruz? Rubio? Even Mike Pence? Are they part of the "Deep State"? Maybe Sessions is? Is the "Deep State" basically ANYONE who dares to oppose the almighty Donald Trump? Inquiring minds want to know.
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So at its basest form a "deep state" is the idea that the elected, representative government is really run by a sort of hidden oligarchy of the rich, major political figures, whatever that nobody knows about. In essence, while, yes, American politics afford a bit more influence to certain people and political groups, and it could probably be more democratic, the "deep state" thing is a conspiracy theory that allows people to justify inefficiency in the US government/the Xistan War/their own nutty ideas by alleging that an evil left/right wing shadow government is secretly running the show.
 
Will Marshall said:
So at its basest form a "deep state" is the idea that the elected, representative government is really run by a sort of hidden oligarchy of the rich, major political figures, whatever that nobody knows about. In essence, while, yes, American politics afford a bit more influence to certain people and political groups, and it could probably be more democratic, the "deep state" thing is a conspiracy theory that allows people to justify inefficiency in the US government/the Xistan War/their own nutty ideas by alleging that an evil left/right wing shadow government is secretly running the show.
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Yep. The Infamous "Obama Shadow Government" that's behind all of Trump's woes.
 
Puigb said:
Yep. The Infamous "Obama Shadow Government" that's behind all of Trump's woes.
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In Hannity's mind, yeah, that's what the Deep State is. The Democrats have completely infiltrated the government and judicial system (despite the fact there's a Republican President, House, Senate and Supreme Court) and are collaborating with the Fake News Media (i.e. not!Fox) to destroy Donald Trump's reputation and delay his legislation. Y'know.
 
Will Marshall said:
In Hannity's mind, yeah, that's what the Deep State is. The Democrats have completely infiltrated the government and judicial system (despite the fact there's a Republican President, House, Senate and Supreme Court) and are collaborating with the Fake News Media (i.e. not!Fox) to destroy Donald Trump's reputation and delay his legislation. Y'know.
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They are also collaborating with the FBI as well. At least that's what Hannity and right wing pundits, along with Trump is claiming.
 
Puigb said:
Not too long ago I created a thread asking if Hannity considered former president George W. Bush part of the "Deep State". I asked this because Hannity used to defend Bush all the time similar to the way he now defends Trump (though I think he actually worships Trump, but that's a topic for another thread). So, what is the "Deep State" any way, and who is part of it? I know right wing pundits include pretty much ANY Democrat as part of the "Deep State", and apparently Republicans like Mueller and Comey, and also the entire FBI are part of the "Deep State". But what about McConnell? Ryan? Cruz? Rubio? Even Mike Pence? Are they part of the "Deep State"? Maybe Sessions is? Is the "Deep State" basically ANYONE who dares to oppose the almighty Donald Trump? Inquiring minds want to know.
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There is no deep state, it's briebart/bannon horse manure
 
Puigb said:
Yep, just as I thought. Anyone who dares to oppose Trump = Part of the "Deep State".
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In my youth it was just called "anti-establishment" ....or if you want to get fancy, "antiestablishmentarianism".

"...Individuals who were anti-establishment often spoke of "fighting the man", "selling out to the Establishment", and "tearing down the Establishment." Many well renowned activists and activist groups innovated great changes to society by standing up to "the Establishment", including the MC5, Symbionese Liberation Army, Black Panther Party, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Malcolm X, Malvina Reynolds, Dead Kennedys, Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, Bernie Sanders, Public Enemy, System of a Down, K-Rino, Immortal Technique, Black Flag, Rage Against the Machine, Terminator X, Gil-Scott Heron, dead prez, Timothy Leary, Paris and Lupe Fiasco among others..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-establishment​


But yeah, today's "deep state" is used, right or wrongly, to purge Trump's critics and perceived political enemies from government.
 
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Puigb said:
Not too long ago I created a thread asking if Hannity considered former president George W. Bush part of the "Deep State". I asked this because Hannity used to defend Bush all the time similar to the way he now defends Trump (though I think he actually worships Trump, but that's a topic for another thread). So, what is the "Deep State" any way, and who is part of it? I know right wing pundits include pretty much ANY Democrat as part of the "Deep State", and apparently Republicans like Mueller and Comey, and also the entire FBI are part of the "Deep State". But what about McConnell? Ryan? Cruz? Rubio? Even Mike Pence? Are they part of the "Deep State"? Maybe Sessions is? Is the "Deep State" basically ANYONE who dares to oppose the almighty Donald Trump? Inquiring minds want to know.
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I've noticed that too. I mean all those who defended G.W. Bush to the max have now declared him public enemy number one since he didn't back Trump. But that is the way partisanship is. I noticed the same thing when this Stormy Daniels thing hit, those older Democrats who defended Bill Clinton to the hilt back in the 90's threw him under the bus so they could use Daniels for political advantage.

To me the deep state isn't so much our elected officials, although those who make congress a political career probably qualify. I would say the deep state is all these governmental agencies and their folks who work there. Those who aren't elected, the unelected who were there before any new president and will be there long after that president is gone. They continue for run their agencies and departments like they always have regardless of what any new elected president wants. They have their own agenda. They all basically go their own way regardless of any new policies brought forth or any of the old policies revoked. Why not? They were there before and administration change and will be there after.

They do things their way. Our government is so big and so entrenched, no one could ever change direction or reverse policy course even if they tried.
 
The boogeyman "Deep State" is the underworld in the Federal Government only recently imagined by Right wingers who never tire of scaring themselves. In other words, their current favorite conspiracy theory. The actual deep state is the Civil Service System in which ordinary people, unaffected by political patronage, do the nuts and bolts of government work.
 
If you want to understand what people mean by the Deep State a good place to start is do a search on the Moorer Radford Affair. It occurred during the Nixon presidency.

Here's a link to get you started.

The Men Who Spied on Nixon: New Details Reveal Extent of 'Moorer-Radford Affair' | Fox News

The Deep State is made up of bureaucrats and unelected persons that have been entrenched in Washington that use their access and powers to direct policy as they see fit and overriding those the people elect. You will find them at the Pentagon, FBI, DOJ, CIA, NSA and the other intel agencies, and the State Department. You don't read their names in print but they are often the sources of all leaks out of Washington.

Also two investigative reporters James Rosen and Sharyl Attkisson who both experienced ordeals by those unelected people in government that used their powers in sinister ways during the Obama administration. Both have authored books on their experiences. Attkisson is still fighting her case through the courts.
 
Puigb said:
Not too long ago I created a thread asking if Hannity considered former president George W. Bush part of the "Deep State". I asked this because Hannity used to defend Bush all the time similar to the way he now defends Trump (though I think he actually worships Trump, but that's a topic for another thread). So, what is the "Deep State" any way, and who is part of it? I know right wing pundits include pretty much ANY Democrat as part of the "Deep State", and apparently Republicans like Mueller and Comey, and also the entire FBI are part of the "Deep State". But what about McConnell? Ryan? Cruz? Rubio? Even Mike Pence? Are they part of the "Deep State"? Maybe Sessions is? Is the "Deep State" basically ANYONE who dares to oppose the almighty Donald Trump? Inquiring minds want to know.
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Two answers...

Actual Answer as it relates to the concept: The Deep State would be career civil servants within the various executive branch agencies that are in significant positions of authority or scope, who are a notch below the actual political appointee positions within the agencies. These individuals are employees who survive within the government through multiple Presidential terms and are able to use their positions to steer agency, and thus to an extent federal, policy and guidelines in ways that are unrelated to the will of any given elected official. Essentially, while leadership at the "top" may change and may have different goals or desires, the people actually "running" day to day operations of the agencies and thus actually steering them in a practical sense are those who have been there, and will continue to be there, through numerous presidencies.

Practical Answer as it relates to it's use by some in the public eye: The Deep State is anyone in, or previously in, government that dislikes Donald Trump.
 
OscarLevant said:
There is no deep state, it's briebart/bannon horse manure
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Eh, there is essentially a deep state. It's just not this shadowy orchestrated and organized apparatus that the brietbart folks present it as, nor is it inherently "anti-Trump".

At most, it may be organized to a point within an agency or within a sector of government (such as the intelligence community), but even then it's typically focused less around some attempt to thwart or circumvent a President and more focused on dealing with the core missions of any given agency, and assuring that continues seemlessly, regardless of what changes occur at the top (i.e. President or political appointees).

The reason, at times, this may manifest in a way that seems "anti-Trump" right now is that you have instances where the Trump Administration has been taking steps to actively stop and/or hinder agencies from engaging in what these employees view as their core missions, and thus action is taken to find ways to continue to do that despite Trump Administration desires. Such instances, however, are less about being "Anti-Trump" as they are about being pro-agency. As is normal in all sectors of life, people within a particular job tend to become defensive and resistant to change that threatens their jobs existance.
 
Puigb said:
Not too long ago I created a thread asking if Hannity considered former president George W. Bush part of the "Deep State". I asked this because Hannity used to defend Bush all the time similar to the way he now defends Trump (though I think he actually worships Trump, but that's a topic for another thread). So, what is the "Deep State" any way, and who is part of it? I know right wing pundits include pretty much ANY Democrat as part of the "Deep State", and apparently Republicans like Mueller and Comey, and also the entire FBI are part of the "Deep State". But what about McConnell? Ryan? Cruz? Rubio? Even Mike Pence? Are they part of the "Deep State"? Maybe Sessions is? Is the "Deep State" basically ANYONE who dares to oppose the almighty Donald Trump? Inquiring minds want to know.
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It's a giant turd pulled out of idiot right wingers butts that they attempt to use when they have nothing to defend Trump or other republicans. I can't believe there are so many idiots in this country that believe that nonsense
 
Puigb said:
Not too long ago I created a thread asking if Hannity considered former president George W. Bush part of the "Deep State". I asked this because Hannity used to defend Bush all the time similar to the way he now defends Trump (though I think he actually worships Trump, but that's a topic for another thread). So, what is the "Deep State" any way, and who is part of it? I know right wing pundits include pretty much ANY Democrat as part of the "Deep State", and apparently Republicans like Mueller and Comey, and also the entire FBI are part of the "Deep State". But what about McConnell? Ryan? Cruz? Rubio? Even Mike Pence? Are they part of the "Deep State"? Maybe Sessions is? Is the "Deep State" basically ANYONE who dares to oppose the almighty Donald Trump? Inquiring minds want to know.
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The "Deep State" is now anyone or anything that opposes Donald "The Don" Trump.

In the eyes of the White House, I am a member of the Deep State corps.
 
vesper said:
If you want to understand what people mean by the Deep State a good place to start is do a search on the Moorer Radford Affair. It occurred during the Nixon presidency.

Here's a link to get you started.

The Men Who Spied on Nixon: New Details Reveal Extent of 'Moorer-Radford Affair' | Fox News

The Deep State is made up of bureaucrats and unelected persons that have been entrenched in Washington that use their access and powers to direct policy as they see fit and overriding those the people elect. You will find them at the Pentagon, FBI, DOJ, CIA, NSA and the other intel agencies, and the State Department. You don't read their names in print but they are often the sources of all leaks out of Washington.

Also two investigative reporters James Rosen and Sharyl Attkisson who both experienced ordeals by those unelected people in government that used their powers in sinister ways during the Obama administration. Both have authored books on their experiences. Attkisson is still fighting her case through the courts.
Click to expand...

It always goes back to the Intelligence Agencies. Their relationship with the MIC and Military Offense contractors (corporatism) and the top secret nature of many MIC contracts puts them, Intelligence Agencies, at the hub of Washington's secrets. It also puts them in contact with the Big Money players in Washington and the World. They cultivate those relationships and keep the players in influential positions, especially in the State Department. They become teh underlying gears that move many things in Politics. Money, power, influence, corruption, and manipulation and it becomes the Deep State. It's not necessarily left or right, but follows the path of convenience to maximize its' influence. Take a serious look at the CIA connectioss of GHWBush, both Clintons, GWBush, etc. and wonder why so many CIA affiliates become President.
/
 
DaveFagan said:
It always goes back to the Intelligence Agencies. Their relationship with the MIC and Military Offense contractors (corporatism) and the top secret nature of many MIC contracts puts them, Intelligence Agencies, at the hub of Washington's secrets. It also puts them in contact with the Big Money players in Washington and the World. They cultivate those relationships and keep the players in influential positions, especially in the State Department. They become teh underlying gears that move many things in Politics. Money, power, influence, corruption, and manipulation and it becomes the Deep State. It's not necessarily left or right, but follows the path of convenience to maximize its' influence. Take a serious look at the CIA connectioss of GHWBush, both Clintons, GWBush, etc. and wonder why so many CIA affiliates become President.
/
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Directors of Intel agencies are appointed by the president confirmed by the Senate. What has happened in my opinion are these agencies have become way too politicized and I do think the case is being made that most recently the Obama administration encouraged abuse of several agencies for political purposes.

I think probably the most honest statement Chuck Schumer ever made was in reference to Trump.........
“Let me tell you, you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you, “So even for a practical, supposedly hard-nosed businessman, he’s being really dumb to do this.”

Apparently Schumer believes those within the Intel agencies can be abusive with their power and act in nefarious ways.
 
vesper said:
Directors of Intel agencies are appointed by the president confirmed by the Senate. What has happened in my opinion are these agencies have become way too politicized and I do think the case is being made that most recently the Obama administration encouraged abuse of several agencies for political purposes.

I think probably the most honest statement Chuck Schumer ever made was in reference to Trump.........
“Let me tell you, you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you, “So even for a practical, supposedly hard-nosed businessman, he’s being really dumb to do this.”

Apparently Schumer believes those within the Intel agencies can be abusive with their power and act in nefarious ways.
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Not to mention that even a veiled threat can be considered a threat.
 
Lot's of good comments here setting the record straight about exactly what is the Deep State. I've "liked" a few of them and have no reason or inclination to repeat their well-made points.

But I will add this: The Deep State very well CAN include the top echelons of various departments...even the appointed heads of departments. Also, the Deep State doesn't imply that ALL government workers take part. Most just do their jobs without any personal political motivations directing their actions.
 
Lovebug said:
Not to mention that even a veiled threat can be considered a threat.
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Like the veiled threats coming from former intel directors under the Obama administration out there either pushing a book or demonizing a sitting president in their speeches, tweets and broadcasted interviews in media? Those who leaked information for the purpose to set up a special counsel?

https://spectator.org/comey-and-brennan-leaders-of-the-coup/
 
Puigb said:
Not too long ago I created a thread asking if Hannity considered former president George W. Bush part of the "Deep State". I asked this because Hannity used to defend Bush all the time similar to the way he now defends Trump (though I think he actually worships Trump, but that's a topic for another thread). So, what is the "Deep State" any way, and who is part of it? I know right wing pundits include pretty much ANY Democrat as part of the "Deep State", and apparently Republicans like Mueller and Comey, and also the entire FBI are part of the "Deep State". But what about McConnell? Ryan? Cruz? Rubio? Even Mike Pence? Are they part of the "Deep State"? Maybe Sessions is? Is the "Deep State" basically ANYONE who dares to oppose the almighty Donald Trump? Inquiring minds want to know.
Click to expand...

What is the 'Deep State'? As of now it would appear to be defined as being any political or career public servant holdover who has ever expressed any past negative opinion of President Trump, dares to question him or resists his demands for their complete fealty. I think that about covers it.
 
OscarLevant said:
There is no deep state, it's briebart/bannon horse manure
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i disagree, having been a member of that deep state until retirement during dubya's administration
it's the civil servants who have sworn to uphold the Constitution. while they are led by those who received political appointments, the deep state civil servants adhere strictly to the laws, regulations, and standard operation procedures as they are written
and they get away with doing the peoples' work the right way because they are largely insulated from termination for political reasons (thanks to the wide unionization of government employees and whistleblower laws)
this is what allows our federal government to operate with minimal disruption no matter what party is in control of the white house
and i can see why a president who thrives on chaos would paint such stability due to a deep state as a negative thing
 
Atomic Kid said:
What is the 'Deep State'? As of now it would appear to be defined as being any political or career public servant holdover who has ever expressed any past negative opinion of President Trump, dares to question him or resists his demands for their complete fealty. I think that about covers it.
Click to expand...

Sounds to me like you are describing people who don't want to do the work they were hired to do. In most organizations, those people tend to get fired.
 
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