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Two black men arrested at Philly Starbucks for trespassing

AliHajiSheik said:
The mayor is an idiot, but not this time.
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The mayor is an idiot, and wrong in his statement. Starbucks is a place of business.

It is also bizarre that he's referring this to a city bureau that apparently can order training for the employees of a private business. I'm not saying that this training wouldn't be warranted based on other information, but that should be up to Starbucks.
 
ecofarm said:
I always get a smile and a cordial remark. Never been told no, never been told get out and sure a hell never been arrested. On an airplane, during ascent, seat-belt sign on, "I gotta go", "no problem, sir". If a white person's gotta piss, everyone gets out of the way and says 'thank you'.
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Depends where you are. I've been told no plenty of times. The arresting part was over the top and uncalled for. But then again, I've never refused to leave.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
Nope.There is white, right and wrong. You could be whright but you are just plain whrong....:lamo
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Wrong about what?

You mean I was not asked to leave restaurants when waiting for the rest of party to show up?

or am I wrong about believing that I am white?
You also have been lucky, there is no right that you are to be granted privilige to use a business' space for free, no matter what your color. To make every concocted offense about race has become so banal that most take to opposing it just based on the annoyance factor.

A useful hobby would be way more productive for all the whinning cynics out their over crying woof woof in your wildernesses, life is ruff ruff all over. :lamo :2wave:
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I said nothing about privilige or being annoyed. I was quite happy to wait for my companions
 
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notquiteright said:
Starbucks offers free WiFi. I have personally witnessed people sitting for hours without making a purchase to use the service. Never seen an Oklahoma Starbucks (or McDonalds) refuse the bathroom or press loitering charges. The Lee Blvd McDonalds allows some very rough people to hang out near the back by the bathrooms. The Starbucks on Quanah Parker Trailway allows people to sit without purchase.

The crap about the Mayor's office and home is BS. No one wanted to use the Starbuck's office or the manager's home. Please try to stay away from absurd arguments.... :peace
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A couple of odd things in the story:

1) They called 911 for this? Really?
2) The police didn't just tell the people to purchase something or leave? Went straight to arrest?

Something doesn't add up here. There's got to be more to the story.
 
holbritter said:
Depends where you are. I've been told no plenty of times. The arresting part was over the top and uncalled for. But then again, I've never refused to leave.
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I'd bet there are extenuating circumstances. I post the above without fear of such. The point is to have the conversation, and to not deny our privilege.
 
sangha said:
Only if they and their kids were not too fat to fit into it.
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The fat kids are on purpose to qualify for the wide-body sedan.
 
ecofarm said:
I'd bet there are extenuating circumstances. I post the above without fear of such. The point is to have the conversation, and to not deny our privilege.
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I don't agree with blaming white privilege on every negative thing that happens to anyone of color.
 
dcsports said:
A couple of odd things in the story: 1) They called 911 for this? Really? 2) The police didn't just tell the people to purchase something or leave? Went straight to arrest? Something doesn't add up here. There's got to be more to the story.
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It would be interesting to here why the owners called 911, but it could be they didn't have a procedure for contacting LE on a non emergency basis. Having seen some Starbucks managers I'd opine cool under pressure isn't a requirement. Exactly who said what to whom when the cops showed up would be interesting to know. Some in LE seem more determined to look tough than reasonable.... :peace
 
holbritter said:
I don't agree with blaming white privilege on every negative thing that happens to anyone of color.
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Every negative thing that happens to everyone? I think you've lept off a cliff there to avoid seeing something.
 
ecofarm said:
I always get a smile and a cordial remark. Never been told no, never been told get out and sure a hell never been arrested. On an airplane, during ascent, seat-belt sign on, "I gotta go", "no problem, sir". If a white person's gotta piss, everyone gets out of the way and says 'thank you'.
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:doh :roll:
 
ecofarm said:
I'd bet there are extenuating circumstances. I post the above without fear of such. The point is to have the conversation, and to not deny our privilege.
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https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/14/us/philadelphia-police-starbucks-arrests/index.html

The police commissioner recorded a summary of the incident, which CNN attached to their 'story'. It's actually a very detailed and thorough account of what happened (from the perspective of the police). It sounds like the Police did a great job with what they had to work with. The two gentlemen had dug in their heels when the police got there. The police were told the men were trespassing by the business, and they refused to leave. I don't know that the police had any choice at that point.

I was extremely impressed by the police commissioner in this video. It's a great addition to their own program that they take every cadet to the Smithsonian African American History Museum and Holocaust Museum as a part of their sensitivity program. I also loved how he took the opportunity to put in a plug for the need to provide all officers with body cameras.
 
Why would they come in and ask? Every starbucks I was ever in, had open, multi occupant bathrooms. What are they 7 year olds? Who ask to use a bathroom?
 
JC Callender said:
It looks like two black men wanted to use the restroom at Starbucks and were denied because they weren't purchasing anything. They then sat down and were asked to leave since they weren't making a purchase and they refused. The police were called and asked the men to leave and they again refused, so the police arrested them. Now there's a public outcry of racism, but what if that particular Starbucks has a problem with people loitering or conducting business without making purchases and they're taking up valuable space that could be used for paying customers, wouldn't that be a problem? Wouldn't if be fair to expect someone to purchase something when using their establishment?

Philly's mayor, defending the two black men, says that Starbucks is "not just a place to buy a cup of coffee, but a place to meet up with friends or family members, or to get some work done", but is it really up to the mayor to assume that Starbucks should provide an office or hang out place free of charge or purchases? Maybe the mayors office and home could be a place for the public to meet up with friends and get some work done? And is it really impossible to see that two white guys could be asked to leave as well under the same circumstances?

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...-on-controversial-arrest-of-2-black-men-in-ph

What do you think?
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They should have left. I am white, and this happened to me years ago after my friend's car broke down in the winter. We were waiting in a store for his dad to come pick us up. 5 minutes later, the cops show up and ask us to leave. Guess what we did? We left.

These 2 should d have done the same. They somehow think they have the privilege to ignore the manager, who asked them to leave nicely, then the police that asked them to leave nicely. I guarantee if I had refused to leave and been arrested, I wouldn't have had people sticking up for me. I'm the wrong color for that privilege.
 
notquiteright said:
It would be interesting to here why the owners called 911, but it could be they didn't have a procedure for contacting LE on a non emergency basis. Having seen some Starbucks managers I'd opine cool under pressure isn't a requirement. Exactly who said what to whom when the cops showed up would be interesting to know. Some in LE seem more determined to look tough than reasonable.... :peace
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Yes, I don't doubt the Starbucks employees were idiots and poorly managed. However, it sounds like they and the two men dug in their heels here and decided to do what they wanted to do. If they would have just bought something, or waited outside, it wouldn't have been an issue.

Check out the police commissioner's account of the incident.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/14/us/philadelphia-police-starbucks-arrests/index.html
 
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Yep...this one sure does look like a case of racial bias. Hard to get around the facts on this one.
 
OlNate said:
Not being a Starbucks guy, I'm a little ignorant of the Starbucks etiquette, in fact I find the whole thing a bit intimidating, and I can never figure out how to order an extra large without being looked down on by a snobby brewista for not saying "Venti"...hehe...so I took this story at face value and initially thought "No, that's not right, you shouldn't be able to loiter in a place of business, no matter who you are".

But, in reading the comment from your linked article, which states ""All the other white ppl are wondering why it’s never happened to us when we do the same thing.", I'm left thinking that if waiting around for friends is something that happens, and if there is a gap between how white people are treated and black people are treated in this location, then they should be on the hook for explaining why, or apologizing, which Starbucks has done.

Can any hardcore Starbucks fans comment on how the store they frequent handles this kind of scenario, where people are waiting for others to join them?
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I don't live in a big city and generally only to go Starbucks when traveling, and it's mostly 'go in, buy needed caffeine, leave.' But I think this video struck a nerve because even in my limited experience it's common to meet there, and it's common to see people sitting at tables with nothing in front of them, often with a laptop, or paper.

I saw this on Twitter, and the problem is we don't know near enough to make a judgment about anyone's actions here. Yes, it's CLEARLY generally, traditionally, typically OK to wait on friends in Starbucks without ordering. It's OFTEN OK to sit for a long time with nothing in front of you but a laptop or newspaper or work documents. Being a place to hang out and wait for friends to meet there is good business for Starbucks GENERALLY. I had a brief client meeting in Starbucks about 10 days ago. My client was 15 minutes early (she told me by text) and waited there at a table with her information and we ordered when I got there on time. No problem, and that's their model in my experience.

So if this was a typical situation, no, Starbucks doesn't generally have a policy to kick out people who say they're waiting on a friend, order or not, doesn't matter. Problem is we don't know really anything about what really happened before the police got there, and so it's hard to judge the behavior of Starbucks' employees here.

My problem is no matter what did happen, you can't legally loiter in a private business, and when a cop asks you to leave a business you're declined to patronize, you leave. I don't see how the police had an option but to remove them.
 
OlNate said:
lol...I mean, I get what you're saying, if it were me I couldn't not, but I have weird anxiety issues around politeness, believe it or not...hehe...perhaps that's why I enjoy anonymous political debate so much, it's good therapy...hehe

But "all they had to do" doesn't explain a gap in the way one treats one group of people vs. another, if such a gap exists. I'd have no problem with the store doing what they did, if they can demonstrate a consistent approach to how they do things. If not, then they deserve to challenged on it. Seems a pretty reasonable position to hold.
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Right now I don't know if there is a gap. It probably will depend on how busy or not busy the store is.
If it isn't busy then I am probably not going to care who sits where.

If I am packed then I only want my paying customers there.
If I have a few people walk in and sit down and not order something
I would ask them to leave so paying people can sit.

If they go we are waiting on a friend I would tell them to please wait standing up.
So other people can have a table.

I doesn't matter what their skin color is.
 
JC Callender said:
It looks like two black men wanted to use the restroom at Starbucks and were denied because they weren't purchasing anything.
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Quite an acceptable corporate policy. If the two can establish that "Whites" are allowed to use the restrooms without purchasing anything then they may have a case.

JC Callender said:
They then sat down and were asked to leave since they weren't making a purchase ...
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Quite an acceptable corporate policy. If the two can establish that "Whites" are allowed to use the premises without purchasing anything then they may have a case.

JC Callender said:
and they refused. The police were called and asked the men to leave ...
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Quite an acceptable corporate policy. If the two can establish that the police are not called when "Whites" are using the premises without purchasing and refuse to leave when asked to leave then they may have a case.

JC Callender said:
and they again refused, so the police arrested them.
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Quite an acceptable corporate policy. If the two can establish that "Whites" are not arrested when they refuse to leave a premises when the police ask them to do so then they may have a case.

JC Callender said:
Now there's a public outcry of racism, but what if that particular Starbucks has a problem with people loitering or conducting business without making purchases and they're taking up valuable space that could be used for paying customers, wouldn't that be a problem? Wouldn't if be fair to expect someone to purchase something when using their establishment?
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That would be quite an acceptable corporate practice - provided that it was enforced equally on all regardless of race, colour, creed, gender, sexual orientation, national origin, or any other "discriminatory" criterion.


JC Callender said:
Philly's mayor, defending the two black men, says that Starbucks is "not just a place to buy a cup of coffee, but a place to meet up with friends or family members, or to get some work done",...
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Let's just say Bull S*** and leave it at that.


JC Callender said:
.but is it really up to the mayor to assume that Starbucks should provide an office or hang out place free of charge or purchases?[/ Maybe the mayors office and home could be a place for the public to meet up with friends and get some work done?
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See above

JC Callender said:
And is it really impossible to see that two white guys could be asked to leave as well under the same circumstances?
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Nope.
 
dcsports said:
Yes, I don't doubt the Starbucks employees were idiots and poorly managed. However, it sounds like they and the two men dug in their heels here and decided to do what they wanted to do. If they would have just bought something, or waited outside, it wouldn't have been an issue. Check out the police commissioner's account of the incident.
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I don't doubt the two men were not happy with Starbucks denying them the bathroom, or allowed to hang out. Like I posted, I've never seen a Starbucks that restricted it's bathroom or denied people the use of their WiFi without purchase. I'd say there is more to the story, why did the Starbucks refuse the bathroom or a seat to these guys??? :peace
 
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