Trump and TPP, flexible or flip-flopper?

independentusa · Apr 13, 2018

Trump is suggesting he now wants back in the TPP if it gives us a better deal than Obama got, naturally. His followers are calling his actions admirable and shows his flexibility. When a Dem candidate in the past did this the GOP called it being a flip-flopper. Whatever it is, he is doing this because of the moves made by the Chinese to go after products grown or produced in areas that supported Trump in the election after Trump's tariffs on China. He is rapidly losing support in those areas of the country. I wonder if he will get a better deal or if he can get a deal at all. It sounds like it won't be easy to get back into the TPP.

Phys251 · Apr 13, 2018

independentusa said:
Trump is suggesting he now wants back in the TPP if it gives us a better deal than Obama got, naturally. His followers are calling his actions admirable and shows his flexibility. When a Dem candidate in the past did this the GOP called it being a flip-flopper. Whatever it is, he is doing this because of the moves made by the Chinese to go after products grown or produced in areas that supported Trump in the election after Trump's tariffs on China. He is rapidly losing support in those areas of the country. I wonder if he will get a better deal or if he can get a deal at all. It sounds like it won't be easy to get back into the TPP.

Inb4 some of Trump's followers find a way to justify his flip-flopping and his hypocrisy.

Rexedgar · Apr 13, 2018

Ya know, once you holler "rape", it's a whole new ballgame!

[video]https://link.theplatform.com/s/7wvmTC/vi_HdLxZRwHK?format=redirect&format=redirect&Tracking=true&Embedded=true&formats=MPEG4[/video]

OlNate · Apr 13, 2018

independentusa said:
Trump is suggesting he now wants back in the TPP if it gives us a better deal than Obama got, naturally. His followers are calling his actions admirable and shows his flexibility. When a Dem candidate in the past did this the GOP called it being a flip-flopper. Whatever it is, he is doing this because of the moves made by the Chinese to go after products grown or produced in areas that supported Trump in the election after Trump's tariffs on China. He is rapidly losing support in those areas of the country. I wonder if he will get a better deal or if he can get a deal at all. It sounds like it won't be easy to get back into the TPP.

I say neither. This is merely reality catching up to Trump's twitter account. He probably should have learned how national and global economic strategies differ from running fake universities and shady construction companies before burning so many bridges. He's not flexible, he's not even flip flopping...he's desperate. Here's hoping, for your sakes, not his (he'll be fine), he's not too late...despite over a year of Trump putting the rest of the world "in it's place", it continues to turn, and move on without him.

Gotta say, though, it's nice to say I told you so...hehe

Rogue Valley · Apr 13, 2018

OlNate said:
I say neither. This is merely reality catching up to Trump's twitter account. He probably should have learned how national and global economic strategies differ from running fake universities and shady construction companies before burning so many bridges. He's not flexible, he's not even flip flopping...he's desperate. Here's hoping, for your sakes, not his (he'll be fine), he's not too late...despite over a year of Trump putting the rest of the world "in it's place", it continues to turn, and move on without him.

Gotta say, though, it's nice to say I told you so...hehe

Same with the Paris Accord, except that is a deal-breaker for his base.

JasperL · Apr 13, 2018

OlNate said:
I say neither. This is merely reality catching up to Trump's twitter account. He probably should have learned how national and global economic strategies differ from running fake universities and shady construction companies before burning so many bridges. He's not flexible, he's not even flip flopping...he's desperate. Here's hoping, for your sakes, not his (he'll be fine), he's not too late...despite over a year of Trump putting the rest of the world "in it's place", it continues to turn, and move on without him.

Gotta say, though, it's nice to say I told you so...hehe

The whole episode just highlights what's so dangerous about a no-nothing ignoramus who is proud of being ignorant and doesn't even TRY to get the facts as POTUS. He listened to flame throwers on the right wing who are either stupid or liars instead of getting advice from actually competent people before rashly pulling out of TPP. Who knew POTUS listening to idiots and ignoramuses for advice on major decisions like TPP might come back to haunt us?

sangha · Apr 13, 2018

OlNate said:
I say neither. This is merely reality catching up to Trump's twitter account. He probably should have learned how national and global economic strategies differ from running fake universities and shady construction companies before burning so many bridges. He's not flexible, he's not even flip flopping...he's desperate. Here's hoping, for your sakes, not his (he'll be fine), he's not too late...despite over a year of Trump putting the rest of the world "in it's place", it continues to turn, and move on without him.

Gotta say, though, it's nice to say I told you so...hehe

That is EXACTLY what I was thinking.

He is just beginning to learn that he is in WAY over his head, and now he is desperate.

Cannot wait until Middle America deserts him and he becomes pariah. It cannot come soon enough

DickBanks · Apr 13, 2018

independentusa said:
Trump is suggesting he now wants back in the TPP if it gives us a better deal than Obama got, naturally. His followers are calling his actions admirable and shows his flexibility. When a Dem candidate in the past did this the GOP called it being a flip-flopper. Whatever it is, he is doing this because of the moves made by the Chinese to go after products grown or produced in areas that supported Trump in the election after Trump's tariffs on China. He is rapidly losing support in those areas of the country. I wonder if he will get a better deal or if he can get a deal at all. It sounds like it won't be easy to get back into the TPP.

I'd say flexible. People forget that TPP was the one issue that HRC and he agreed on.

In the end, it's all about what's best for America.

I'm not a Trump supporter generally, but I have to give credit where credit is due. We got run over with TPP. My friends in Taiwan even admit that.

jnug · Apr 13, 2018

JasperL said:
The whole episode just highlights what's so dangerous about a no-nothing ignoramus who is proud of being ignorant and doesn't even TRY to get the facts as POTUS. He listened to flame throwers on the right wing who are either stupid or liars instead of getting advice from actually competent people before rashly pulling out of TPP. Who knew POTUS listening to idiots and ignoramuses for advice on major decisions like TPP might come back to haunt us?

Flip flopper for sure and it is even worse than you might think.

TPP is saying that the things that trump administration were looking for in a renegotiated TPP were left on the cutting room floor and they don't know if trump is talking about where the other 11 partners are now or something else. They are going to wait to see how serious trump is and what he is looking for. the King of negotiations strikes again. IDIOT!!!

Surrealistik · Apr 13, 2018

The TPP as it existed absolutely _should_ have been scrapped/extensively revised given the draconian IP laws and the undue expansion of corporate power and secretive, opaque tribunals and arbitration it meant to export and uphold; it was one of the few things I actually think Trump made the right call on, barring perhaps his failure to demand and pursue substantive changes instead of dropping it outright.

If he wants to revive the TPP, albeit in a form that excludes or reduces those unacceptable elements, I'm all for it.

However, I will say that in light of his apparent propensity for cronyism/privatization and corporatism I'm now about convinced that he probably reneged on the TPP for all the wrong reasons.

jnug · Apr 13, 2018

Surrealistik said:
The TPP as it existed absolutely _should_ have been scrapped/extensively revised given the draconian IP laws and the undue expansion of corporate power and secretive, opaque tribunals and arbitration it meant to export and uphold; it was one of the few things I actually think Trump made the right call on, barring perhaps his failure to demand and pursue substantive changes instead of dropping it outright.

If he wants to revive the TPP, albeit in a form that excludes or reduces those unacceptable elements, I'm all for it.

However, I will say that in light of his apparent propensity for cronyism/privatization and corporatism I'm now about convinced that he probably reneged on the TPP for all the wrong reasons.

Trump slam dunked himself out of the only real correctly sized and correctly motivated organization that could help us with the China IP theft issues and now I guess somebody has finally convinced him that a) that is our real with China Trade and B) he does not have any levers to pull now that he is out of TPP

Surrealistik · Apr 13, 2018

jnug said:
Trump slam dunked himself out of the only real correctly sized and correctly motivated organization that could help us with the China IP theft issues and now I guess somebody has finally convinced him that a) that is our real with China Trade and B) he does not have any levers to pull now that he is out of TPP

As China was not a signatory, and was not likely to become one in the foreseeable future, I'm not sure that it would have been of real assistance in dealing with IP theft, though yes, there would have been pressure to eventually join and abide by its rules, but that is deferred and uncertain, and even then I'm sure IP theft would remain rampant if it served China's purposes (to be honest, if such curtailing of IP theft happened, it would have more been a pleasant side effect of facilitating trade and maintaining US leadership/hegemony). However, I agree Trump did figure out, probably with considerable assistance, that dropping the TPP negotiations entirely was not a good call.

jnug · Apr 13, 2018

Surrealistik said:
As China was not a signatory, and was not likely to become one in the foreseeable future, I'm not sure that it would have been of real assistance in dealing with IP theft, though yes, there would have been pressure to eventually join and abide by its rules, but that is deferred and uncertain, and even then I'm sure IP theft would remain rampant if it served China's purposes (to be honest, if such curtailing of IP theft happened, it would have more been a pleasant side effect of facilitating trade and maintaining US leadership/hegemony). However, I agree Trump did figure out, probably with considerable assistance, that dropping the TPP negotiations entirely was not a good call.

If you have 11 nations allied against an IP thief it does not matter if the IP thief joins. It would be better if he joined but not necessary. As long as the 11 or 12 with the US included agree about what IP theft actually is and agree on the penalties that would be incurred you at least have something. As it is now, nobody has anything and no bilateral agreement was ever going to accomplish anything in that regard. They would have to agree about what IP theft is and they would have to agree not to wimp out in the penalty stage.

You would hope that eventually China would see its way to joining such an organization for a number of reasons. But it is the best step to actually dealing with this issue and IMO, the only step that makes any sense. WTO is not going to be effective. Its too large, too cumbersome in its penalties structure (would take as long as 3-5 years to actually get a WTO response to an offense) and includes too many countries that don't care a rats behind about IP.

Surrealistik · Apr 13, 2018

jnug said:
If you have 11 nations allied against an IP thief it does not matter if the IP thief joins. It would be better if he joined but not necessary. As long as the 11 or 12 with the US included agree about what IP theft actually is and agree on the penalties that would be incurred you at least have something. As it is now, nobody has anything and no bilateral agreement was ever going to accomplish anything in that regard. They would have to agree about what IP theft is and they would have to agree not to wimp out in the penalty stage.

You would hope that eventually China would see its way to joining such an organization for a number of reasons. But it is the best step to actually dealing with this issue and IMO, the only step that makes any sense. WTO is not going to be effective. Its too large, too cumbersome in its penalties structure (would take as long as 3-5 years to actually get a WTO response to an offense) and includes too many countries that don't care a rats behind about IP.

IP theft would absolutely remain a problem, albeit less of one, particularly if the second largest, likely going on largest economy, remains a prolific thief; let's keep it real. While I don't disagree that the TPP would have _helped_, it's not my argument that it wouldn't; only that its impact wouldn't be some kind of silver bullet or even effective to the point of eliminating it as a problem in practice (or at best the magnitude of that help would be uncertain), though I agree, there are precious few alternatives that would be as effective.

Getting back to the point though, resuming the TPP negotiations is a good thing so long as the very legitimate concerns regarding the excess/overreach of IP enforcement and corporate power to challenge local regulatory, and opaque rulings/enforcement are addressed; if that's where Trump goes with any such revival, I'm all for it.

jnug · Apr 13, 2018

Surrealistik said:
IP theft would absolutely remain a problem, albeit less of one, particularly if the second largest, likely going on largest economy, remains a prolific thief; let's keep it real. While I don't disagree that the TPP would have _helped_, it's not my argument that it wouldn't; only that its impact wouldn't be some kind of silver bullet or even effective to the point of eliminating it as a problem in practice, though I agree, there are precious few alternatives that would be as effective.

Getting back to the point though, resuming the TPP negotiations is a good thing so long as the very legitimate concerns regarding the excess/overreach of IP enforcement and corporate power to challenge local regulatory, and opaque rulings/enforcement are addressed; if that's where Trump goes with any such revival, I'm all for it.

Wonder if we will ever get to see what ended up on the "cutting room floor" from the last go round.

OlNate · Apr 13, 2018

JasperL said:
The whole episode just highlights what's so dangerous about a no-nothing ignoramus who is proud of being ignorant and doesn't even TRY to get the facts as POTUS. He listened to flame throwers on the right wing who are either stupid or liars instead of getting advice from actually competent people before rashly pulling out of TPP. Who knew POTUS listening to idiots and ignoramuses for advice on major decisions like TPP might come back to haunt us?

Honestly, I think it's simpler than that. He was looking for a way to elicit hell yeah's from his base, and this was low hanging fruit, however unrealistic, and, in fact, economically suicidal. Maybe he got his inspiration from idiots, but it seems pretty well documented that he beats to his own drum, and is his own primary advisor.

OlNate · Apr 13, 2018

sangha said:
That is EXACTLY what I was thinking.

He is just beginning to learn that he is in WAY over his head, and now he is desperate.

Cannot wait until Middle America deserts him and he becomes pariah. It cannot come soon enough

Yes...at some point this is exactly why populist leaders fail (using populist loosely, because while Trump's message was populist, his actions have been anything but). It takes more than memes and slogans to fix the problems that exist in America.

Trump and TPP, flexible or flip-flopper?

independentusa

Phys251

Purge evil with Justice

Rexedgar

Yo-Semite!

OlNate

Shameless Canuck

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way

JasperL

sangha

DickBanks

Well-known member

jnug

Surrealistik

jnug

Surrealistik

jnug

Surrealistik

jnug

OlNate

Shameless Canuck

OlNate

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