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Carleen said:
Well, now its Trump’s job, and until recently he wouldn’t say a bad word about Putin. Not sure I understand what that is all about.
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trash talking putin and starting a cold war isnt the best approach, in my opinion. russia meddled in our elections? sure. what have other countries done to us when we meddle in their affairs (libya and syria to name a few)?

our government is not innocent. we meddle in everything. do you disagree?
 
Dittohead not! said:
That does fit with the standard definition of conservative as being opposed to change. Do you think that's what modern conservatives mean when they use the term?
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I don't know, it probably varies. Most don't know what 'liberal' means, but they probably think 'conservative' just means 'not liberal'.
Here's how I think conservatism works- take a picture of a moment in history that you think of as the perfect moment (for most conservatives these days that moment probably happened during the Eisenhower administration), and try by legislation to design society around that moment. If you can just get the right combination of laws and enforcement you can live in that moment forever.
 
biglawnmower said:
trash talking putin and starting a cold war isnt the best approach, in my opinion. russia meddled in our elections? sure. what have other countries done to us when we meddle in their affairs (libya and syria to name a few)?

our government is not innocent. we meddle in everything. do you disagree?
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Yes. What Russia and Putin did goes beyond meddling to me. Trump didn’t have to talk trash to condemn what they did, although he really likes to talk trash about others.
 
Carleen said:
Yes. What Russia and Putin did goes beyond meddling to me. Trump didn’t have to talk trash to condemn what they did, although he really likes to talk trash about others.
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just so we're clear, its ok for the US to meddle, and to help ASSASSINATE leaders...but when russia attempts against us, now its a major problem?

gotta say, you seem nice, but theres a double standard to you.

imo, all of this would never have happened had we left syria alone from 2011 on.
 
biglawnmower said:
just so we're clear, its ok for the US to meddle, and to help ASSASSINATE leaders...but when russia attempts against us, now its a major problem?

gotta say, you seem nice, but theres a double standard to you.

imo, all of this would never have happened had we left syria alone from 2011 on.
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I am nice, but I disagree with you. The Middle East is a threat to our country. We are a country that supports democracy and the rights of all. Have a nice evening.
 
Carleen said:
I am nice, but I disagree with you. The Middle East is a threat to our country. We are a country that supports democracy and the rights of all. Have a nice evening.
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So you do believe that invading these nations and sending our children to die there is making us more safe?

what about the people in those surrounding locations? sending our drones help them?

thank you for your kind discussion, by the way. i enjoy rational people like yourself that can talk without escalating into insults. have a nice evening. hope its warm where you are! beautiful day for me. time to start the garden back up
 
biglawnmower said:
just so we're clear, its ok for the US to meddle, and to help ASSASSINATE leaders...but when russia attempts against us, now its a major problem?

gotta say, you seem nice, but theres a double standard to you.

imo, all of this would never have happened had we left syria alone from 2011 on.
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I don't understand that. Russia and Syria have been allies forever. We did not want ISIS to have an actual base of operations to use to grow their assets and cause even more trouble than they have and we did not want the Kurds to be wiped out. So I don't know what would have changed other than a thriving ISIS caliphate spawning terrorist attacks all over the place as they would have been advertising their safe haven for would be terrorists to the entire world. Heck they only drew something like 40,000 just in the time they had.

We have really made a mess for ourselves. If we make it obvious that Syria is lost (and it is lost) it will look like we are in retreat globally given everything else that is going on and in fact we are in retreat globally and that means democracy looks like it is losing globally. Trump's ludicrous ball washing attitude toward authoritarians does not help in the least.

We need to rebuild our effort in the Middle East and it starts with using those 2,000 troops we have as a buffer or else we are going to find that before we know it Russia/Syria/Iran with the tacit approval of Turkey will have rolled up the whole region between them, leaving the Saudi's positively shaking in their boots and Beni in Israel fingering the trigger on some really nasty stuff because he will feel like he has no choice. Iraq still offers the best geography to maintain a dominant position in the Middle East. But we screwed those people over four ways from Sunday. So I am not sure they want to hear anything from us.

"Here Iraq, we will help you with this that and the other thing and don't worry, we won't pull out before you get to climax just because we were premature." Not sure that is going to fly and who would present it.....Kushner? Please...please the very thought makes my ears hurt. But we do have to keep those troops as a buffer and then we actually have to develop a Middle East policy. If we no longer want any part of the post WW2 world that we created then we need to get people, especially the Europeans to see their strategic interests through the Middle East. As I have said before, we need leaders again who can speak the language of mutual self interest and we have none. We better get some quickly or we will find that retreat is not going work out like some of us want it to. Here again if we can compel our European allies to understand, they might have better luck being the front man for any effort there.

Read your history. We have been here before with disastrous results for the world and for us. I would say that the right place for us is somewhere about half way between where trump "thinks" he wants to go and where we were, assuming we no longer have the stomach for where we were from the 1950's to the beginning of this century. And we need to get out of Afghanistan yesterday. No earthly idea what we think we are doing there any longer.
 
jnug said:
I don't understand that. Russia and Syria have been allies forever. We did not want ISIS to have an actual base of operations to use to grow their assets and cause even more trouble than they have and we did not want the Kurds to be wiped out. So I don't know what would have changed other than a thriving ISIS caliphate spawning terrorist attacks all over the place as they would have been advertising their safe haven for would be terrorists to the entire world. Heck they only drew something like 40,000 just in the time they had.

We have really made a mess for ourselves. If we make it obvious that Syria is lost (and it is lost) it will look like we are in retreat globally given everything else that is going on and in fact we are in retreat globally and that means democracy looks like it is losing globally. Trump's ludicrous ball washing attitude toward authoritarians does not help in the least.

We need to rebuild our effort in the Middle East and it starts with using those 2,000 troops we have as a buffer or else we are going to find that before we know it Russia/Syria/Iran with the tacit approval of Turkey will have rolled up the whole region between them, leaving the Saudi's positively shaking in their boots and Beni in Israel fingering the trigger on some really nasty stuff because he will feel like he has no choice. Iraq still offers the best geography to maintain a dominant position in the Middle East. But we screwed those people over four ways from Sunday. So I am not sure they want to hear anything from us.

"Here Iraq, we will help you with this that and the other thing and don't worry, we won't pull out before you get to climax just because we were premature." Not sure that is going to fly and who would present it.....Kushner? Please...please the very thought makes my ears hurt. But we do have to keep those troops as a buffer and then we actually have to develop a Middle East policy. If we no longer want any part of the post WW2 world that we created then we need to get people, especially the Europeans to see their strategic interests through the Middle East. As I have said before, we need leaders again who can speak the language of mutual self interest and we have none. We better get some quickly or we will find that retreat is not going work out like some of us want it to. Here again if we can compel our European allies to understand, they might have better luck being the front man for any effort there.

Read your history. We have been here before with disastrous results for the world and for us. I would say that the right place for us is somewhere about half way between where trump "thinks" he wants to go and where we were, assuming we no longer have the stomach for where we were from the 1950's to the beginning of this century. And we need to get out of Afghanistan yesterday. No earthly idea what we think we are doing there any longer.
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what are you talking about? we didnt go into syria to get rid of isis. we went in because obama thought assad was being too hard on the rebels...
 
biglawnmower said:
what are you talking about? we didnt go into syria to get rid of isis. we went in because obama thought assad was being too hard on the rebels...
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I am talking about our conflict status, not our efforts to get Assad off his chem attack stuff. Our conflict status has been focused on ISIS and keeping the Kurds from being wiped out. Our humanitarian effort even when using some military assets has been to deal with Assad and his chem weapons. If we had felt so inclined to use our military to actually fight alongside the rebels the rebels would have won and Assad would have lost. There was really never any opportunity to do that with the Russians sitting palace guard on Assad.

Now post ISIS about the only thing we can do is find a way to keep troops on the Syrian side of the border as a buffer until we can actually put together a rational middle east policy.
 
Grand Mal said:
I don't know, it probably varies. Most don't know what 'liberal' means, but they probably think 'conservative' just means 'not liberal'.
Here's how I think conservatism works- take a picture of a moment in history that you think of as the perfect moment (for most conservatives these days that moment probably happened during the Eisenhower administration), and try by legislation to design society around that moment. If you can just get the right combination of laws and enforcement you can live in that moment forever.
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I'm sure it varies.
The Eisenhower Administration, 1952-60, was a great time in our history, as long as you were male, white, and not drafted to fight in Korea.
I'm thinking that the past looks better when you just think about the good things and forget the rest.
 
jnug said:
I am talking about our conflict status, not our efforts to get Assad off his chem attack stuff. Our conflict status has been focused on ISIS and keeping the Kurds from being wiped out. Our humanitarian effort even when using some military assets has been to deal with Assad and his chem weapons. If we had felt so inclined to use our military to actually fight alongside the rebels the rebels would have won and Assad would have lost. There was really never any opportunity to do that with the Russians sitting palace guard on Assad.

Now post ISIS about the only thing we can do is find a way to keep troops on the Syrian side of the border as a buffer until we can actually put together a rational middle east policy.
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and why is the the problem of the US? how many other countries oppose isis?

i know youre using the george bush defense but come on dude. we have no business there and you know it
 
biglawnmower said:
and why is the the problem of the US? how many other countries oppose isis?

i know youre using the george bush defense but come on dude. we have no business there and you know it
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The point is you just cannot retreat everywhere all at once no matter how much you might like to and somebody better pull some long dead president out of his grave so we have somebody that can discuss mutual self interest intelligently and effectively. Either that or somebody has to arrive soon, by 2020 for example to do that job. We cannot just retreat everywhere. We have to hold the line till we get a new president. Then again there is fairly broad support in this country for having an authoritarian approach even here. So maybe we are so screwed up that we are willing to accept that nonsense even here.
 
jnug said:
The point is you just cannot retreat everywhere all at once no matter how much you might like to and somebody better pull some long dead president out of his grave so we have somebody that can discuss mutual self interest intelligently and effectively. Either that or somebody has to arrive soon, by 2020 for example to do that job. We cannot just retreat everywhere. We have to hold the line till we get a new president. Then again there is fairly broad support in this country for having an authoritarian approach even here. So maybe we are so screwed up that we are willing to accept that nonsense even here.
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lol wow.

we have no need to retreat. the russians AND assad all want isis dead. they just use harsh tactics which is why we intervened in the first place.

why not let them kill isis?

why do you want americans to die over this?
 
biglawnmower said:
So you do believe that invading these nations and sending our children to die there is making us more safe?

what about the people in those surrounding locations? sending our drones help them?

thank you for your kind discussion, by the way. i enjoy rational people like yourself that can talk without escalating into insults. have a nice evening. hope its warm where you are! beautiful day for me. time to start the garden back up
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Just wanted you to know that my son is appalled by the 375,000 Iraqis who were killed in a war that was waged upon a lie. And he was right. Hope you are having a good day.
 
I guess we could just disregard the press and leave it up to tRump to tell us the truth............lol
 
Carleen said:
Just wanted you to know that my son is appalled by the 375,000 Iraqis who were killed in a war that was waged upon a lie. And he was right. Hope you are having a good day.
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Good for him. So am I. Ironically, many of those who promoted the war also refer to abortion as a "holocaust."
I've been appalled by the two million or so Vietnamese who were killed in a war that was waged upon a lie for some time now.
 
tres borrachos said:
There's nothing that warms my heart more than alt-righters who have sold their souls for Trump whining like babies about the mean old press, just like fearless leader himself does. Daily.
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It keeps the base riled up, and thanks for that.
 
LowDown said:
It keeps the base riled up, and thanks for that.
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Because you need other people to tell you what to think and when to get "riled up"? Can't do it on your own, eh? How sad. I'm glad to be an adult who can think for myself.
 
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