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Would Trumpsters and present GOP have given Nixon a pass on Watergate?

independentusa said:
I have seen so much written and spoken on the networks and media about the similarities and differences between Watergate and the Russian investigations. I hear the Trumpsters and present GOP saying constantly that there was no collusion or obstruction of justice. I don't know about collusion, but Nixon was forced out by firing the person investigating Watergate and Trump has admitted he fired Comey to end the Russian investigation. So if the present Trumpsters and GOP were politically active during Watergate, do you think they would have given Nixon a pass on his actions?
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Well, to begin, your knowledge of the Watergate affair is faulty. Nixon did not lose the presidency because he fired Cox, he lost the presidency because he staged a cover up.

It has been an accepted fact that most Americans never have seen the harm in a B and E of political opponents, but they get really pissed off at cover ups. The other issue was the tapes, when Americans heard their president using some of the language he used, they bailed.

So now on to the question.

Yes. They would have lied and covered up for him, ANYTHING to prevent "those commie queers" from the reigns of office. What is different today is that Woodward and Bernstein would never get the lee way to do the digging they did. "Investigative Journalism" became "hand out journalism" a decade or two ago and anything that would require the complex explanations of what went on would definitely NOT be ready for prime time. People want **** dumbed down to the lowest common denominator - oops - five syllables - just lost two thirds of the audience.
 
Chomsky said:
Look, I see the same pattern & directions you do. And I'm just as appalled.

But there's going to be an election in November, and there's also going to be a smooth enough transition of power in the House if the voters determine it's to be. Of this, I have no doubt.

And yes, I am with you in the Dem vote.
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You must have missed the latest voter SUPPRESSION out of the god damn gopukkkes today,
forever bastardizing the census and illegally manipulating federal congressional districts.

Did you really think the minority white 'putinized' nationalists would give up power this easy?
I'm not sorry for saying any of this; just the opposite; I'm sorry for not speaking up sooner.

Where exactly do you think we'll be when Congress gets back from another extended vacation?
Who is tending to this tinderbox in DC that YOU trust? Not a single trusted person, that's who.
Who among us believes Mueller won't get fired while Congress is out of town?

It's a good thing you don't watch i24news as I do. You wouldn't sleep. I only sleep because of my CPAP.
Our position on the International Stage could never be more PERILOUS.
Who summarily fires a Secretary of State, 4th in line to be president?
I'm not even sure I believe Mike Pence is an honest broker any more. Ryan and McConnell sure as hell aren't.

You don't have to talk to me any more if you don't want to; I'll understand.
You don't need to be embarrassed with others by speaking with me.

My head has never been clearer. My real life has never been better.
I have the intense intuition of a life-long chemistry/physics teacher.
My intense fears for the future generations are certainly justified ...
 
Linc said:
You must have missed the latest voter SUPPRESSION out of the god damn gopukkkes today,
forever bastardizing the census and illegally manipulating federal congressional districts.

Did you really think the minority white 'putinized' nationalists would give up power this easy?
I'm not sorry for saying any of this; just the opposite; I'm sorry for not speaking up sooner.

Where exactly do you think we'll be when Congress gets back from another extended vacation?
Who is tending to this tinderbox in DC that YOU trust? Not a single trusted person, that's who.
Who among us believes Mueller won't get fired while Congress is out of town?

It's a good thing you don't watch i24news as I do. You wouldn't sleep. I only sleep because of my CPAP.
Our position on the International Stage could never be more PERILOUS.
Who summarily fires a Secretary of State, 4th in line to be president?
I'm not even sure I believe Mike Pence is an honest broker any more. Ryan and McConnell sure as hell aren't.

You don't have to talk to me any more if you don't want to; I'll understand.
You don't need to be embarrassed with others by speaking with me.

My head has never been clearer. My real life has never been better.
I have the intense intuition of a life-long chemistry/physics teacher.
My intense fears for the future generations are certainly justified ...
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Many of us see these things, though to different degrees, Linc.

My disagreement here is with your prediction of either "no election" this November, or no peaceful hand-over of power.
 
Close to 50 years ago..entirely different political climate. Not sure we can do better than guess. I would guess they would cut Nixon more of a break given the lack of middle ground in either party today and the degree to which voting is much more along party lines.

IMO, this congress would not even vote to Impeach Nixon. If they did Impeach I do not think this Senate would vote to remove. Why would this congress even hold actual hearings investigating Nixon. Nixon hearings would be before Judiciary as opposed to House Intel. So you might get actual hearings with actual subpoenas. My sense of it is that the House Republicans would work a way to end up with a stilted investigation even out of the Judiciary Committee.
 
Chomsky said:
Nixon's Republican Congress would treat Nixon in the same manner they treat Trump - they'd react to his approval rating.

I don't have numbers specific to the GOP, but Nixon had a 24% national approval rating when he left office. Trump's lowest was around 36% nationally, but he still managed to hold 80% within the GOP. This of course, keeps the GOP from moving against him. I would assume if Trump gets down to 24% nationally as Nixon did, then in mathematical terms he'd also have to have tanked significantly within the GOP. If so, they will dump him for Pence. Just as the 93rd Congress dumped Nixon for Ford, after the loss of 50 seats.
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I agree. Here's something to back that up: Trump's Presence on Campaign Trail Doesn't Excite GOP Voters. A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 40% of Likely U.S. Voters say it would hurt political candidates in their state if Trump came to campaign for them.

Trump's Presence on Campaign Trail Doesn't Excite GOP Voters - Rasmussen Reports®

Nixon on the day he resigned did have a 24% national approval rating, but 50% among just Republicans only.

Presidential Job Approval Center

But with Nixon there was hard evidence that he participated in the coverup. With Trump, there is none yet. You have one side assuming, hoping and praying he is guilty and the other doing the same thing that he is innocent. I'll wait until Mueller's final report as there is no way I can wade through all this partisan political BS propaganda coming from both sides to determine fact from fiction.

According to the latest YouGov Poll, 20 March 2018, you have 54% of all Republicans giving Trump a very favorable rating. Just about where it was at the end of January of 2017. Within a couple of points. Those Republicans aren't going to waver just like the 50% who still wanted Nixon to stay on the day he resigned. Those Republicans back in Nixon's day called his ouster a silent coup. 21% of all Americans nationally have a very favorable view of Trump. To me that means Trump is in trouble. Now there are 28% of Republicans that give Trump a "Somewhat Favorable," rating. That end up with a 82% overall favorable rating among Republicans. But the somewhats aren't firm or avid supporters of Trump. They view Trump as better than the alternatives. They like him on somethings, don't on others. But since he is a Republican, they are willing to put up with him over any Democrat. But what about another Republican, Pence perhaps? I think they would move to Pence if push came to shove, but not a Democrat. Question 60A

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/p86tnmatk6/econTabReport.pdf

I also think most congressional republicans today think that Trump's uncouth, obnoxious behavior and antics is going to cost them the House. That's why you have 35 Republican incumbents not seeking re-election. Either retiring or looking to run for another office. That number is increasing every month. Quite a lot of Republicans see Trump as an albatross around House Republicans necks. They can't cross Trump now out of fear they would lose his avid supporters and their seats. But they can't embrace Trump out of fear of losing the independent voters and thus their seat.

Regardless, self preservation will end out in the end. These house Republicans may even be more willing to desert Trump than those Republicans of the past were of Nixon. Nixon campaigned hard for them in 1966 and a lot of them owed Nixon politically. Nixon was also a true Republican, a lifelong Republican, one of theirs. Trump made war against the Republican Party, he won. Trump is also an eight time party switcher only becoming a Republican for the third time in 2012. Trump didn't campaign hard for these House Republicans and they don't owe Trump like they did Nixon. Time will tell of course. It all depends on Mueller and his report. If there is a there, there.

Democrats are the only ones crying out loud and raising a ruckus for impeachment. For impeachment to be successful there has to be a serious there, there. Independents must climb on board along with some Republicans or it is a waste of time. Public opinion must be for impeachment or it won't work.
 
independentusa said:
I have seen so much written and spoken on the networks and media about the similarities and differences between Watergate and the Russian investigations. I hear the Trumpsters and present GOP saying constantly that there was no collusion or obstruction of justice. I don't know about collusion, but Nixon was forced out by firing the person investigating Watergate and Trump has admitted he fired Comey to end the Russian investigation. So if the present Trumpsters and GOP were politically active during Watergate, do you think they would have given Nixon a pass on his actions?
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Go get him tiger!

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independentusa said:
Tell me, is there a difference between a physical break in to get information and hacking to get information. I believe that the hacking was a modern version of the Watergate break in. And in the end Trump like Nixon most serious possible crime isn't the break in but the cover up which was an obstruction of justice. The cover up started with and included the firing of Cox.
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Last time I checked, it is Russia that allegedly hacked into the dnc server, not the Trump team. You are correct in that Nixon's real problems started with cover ups and obstruction of justice. However there was a clear crime to begin with. Bill Clinton's problems were actually more similar to Nixon's. The Russian collusion nonsense however is a left wing spittle spewing, slobber on shoes, dribbling witch hunt. Nearly two years in and still no evidence of collusion. Mueller's goal has shifted to hoping to catch Trump in s process crime sych as a perjury trap.

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Chomsky said:
This is a great question, and I hope some Trump voters - and still supporters - weigh-in on this.
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Its not a great question. It's a backhanded swipe meant to insult Trump supporters. Would Obama supporters remained loyal to him if he had done what Nixon did? We already know Clinton supporters would. See how that works...

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Vetplus40 said:
More "Trumpster" conjecture. Yoiu have no ****ing clue what Mueller has so stop talking out of your ass. We can simply wait until Mueller is finished with his investigation if Trump doesnt try and fire him first.

BTW, MY OBAMACARE has and continues to work just fine. Even your username is wrong.....LMAO
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If Mueller had anything worth anything, it would have leaked out by now. As for your Obamacare, If you like it, your in one of the following categories: You are one of the relatively few who is subsidized, you have a very generous employer, you are independently wealthy, or you are still on mommy and daddy's policy. Most Americans do not smile and take it when their health insurance is more expensive then their home mortgage payments and does not kick in until several thousand dollars out of pocket.

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Vetplus40 said:
More "Trumpster" conjecture. Yoiu have no ****ing clue what Mueller has so stop talking out of your ass. We can simply wait until Mueller is finished with his investigation if Trump doesnt try and fire him first.

BTW, MY OBAMACARE has and continues to work just fine. Even your username is wrong.....LMAO
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Lol your one to talk.

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independentusa said:
I have seen so much written and spoken on the networks and media about the similarities and differences between Watergate and the Russian investigations. I hear the Trumpsters and present GOP saying constantly that there was no collusion or obstruction of justice. I don't know about collusion, but Nixon was forced out by firing the person investigating Watergate and Trump has admitted he fired Comey to end the Russian investigation. So if the present Trumpsters and GOP were politically active during Watergate, do you think they would have given Nixon a pass on his actions?
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Yes. If a Republican does anything the right will excuse them. Unless they are a minority. Minority Republicans have to walk a very tight rope.
 
trouble13 said:
Its not a great question. It's a backhanded swipe meant to insult Trump supporters. Would Obama supporters remained loyal to him if he had done what Nixon did? We already know Clinton supporters would. See how that works...

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Yeah, I can see where some might get offended at comparisons. Even though I believe the comparisons have grown to the point of being reasonably legit. Or at the least, fair to ask. But the only real possible negative, depends upon the responses to the question & their validity.
 
MrMike said:
I think your view of history is a little distorted. It wasn't the firing that forced Nixon out. It was the fact he would be impeached and removed from office because there were enough votes to do so.

If Trump had folks break into Hillary's HQ, wiretapped, stole information and created false narratives with the help of foreign agents I think he should resign, be charged, whatever. Unfortunately for the Left, the problem is, they (and their candidate/party) were involved in misuse of government agencies against an opposition candidate, constructing a conspiracy, and paying foreign agents for it.

Good luck!
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Trump did use stolen information to create false narratives with the help of foreign agents. That's how we won!

MAGA!
 
trouble13 said:
Its not a great question. It's a backhanded swipe meant to insult Trump supporters. Would Obama supporters remained loyal to him if he had done what Nixon did? We already know Clinton supporters would. See how that works...

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
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The back-handed swipe is comparing us to Hillary and Obama supporters.

Stop doing that.
 
Perotista said:
I agree. Here's something to back that up: Trump's Presence on Campaign Trail Doesn't Excite GOP Voters. A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone and online survey finds that 40% of Likely U.S. Voters say it would hurt political candidates in their state if Trump came to campaign for them.

Trump's Presence on Campaign Trail Doesn't Excite GOP Voters - Rasmussen Reports®

Nixon on the day he resigned did have a 24% national approval rating, but 50% among just Republicans only.

Presidential Job Approval Center

But with Nixon there was hard evidence that he participated in the coverup. With Trump, there is none yet. You have one side assuming, hoping and praying he is guilty and the other doing the same thing that he is innocent. I'll wait until Mueller's final report as there is no way I can wade through all this partisan political BS propaganda coming from both sides to determine fact from fiction.

According to the latest YouGov Poll, 20 March 2018, you have 54% of all Republicans giving Trump a very favorable rating. Just about where it was at the end of January of 2017. Within a couple of points. Those Republicans aren't going to waver just like the 50% who still wanted Nixon to stay on the day he resigned. Those Republicans back in Nixon's day called his ouster a silent coup. 21% of all Americans nationally have a very favorable view of Trump. To me that means Trump is in trouble. Now there are 28% of Republicans that give Trump a "Somewhat Favorable," rating. That end up with a 82% overall favorable rating among Republicans. But the somewhats aren't firm or avid supporters of Trump. They view Trump as better than the alternatives. They like him on somethings, don't on others. But since he is a Republican, they are willing to put up with him over any Democrat. But what about another Republican, Pence perhaps? I think they would move to Pence if push came to shove, but not a Democrat. Question 60A

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/p86tnmatk6/econTabReport.pdf

I also think most congressional republicans today think that Trump's uncouth, obnoxious behavior and antics is going to cost them the House. That's why you have 35 Republican incumbents not seeking re-election. Either retiring or looking to run for another office. That number is increasing every month. Quite a lot of Republicans see Trump as an albatross around House Republicans necks. They can't cross Trump now out of fear they would lose his avid supporters and their seats. But they can't embrace Trump out of fear of losing the independent voters and thus their seat.

Regardless, self preservation will end out in the end. These house Republicans may even be more willing to desert Trump than those Republicans of the past were of Nixon. Nixon campaigned hard for them in 1966 and a lot of them owed Nixon politically. Nixon was also a true Republican, a lifelong Republican, one of theirs. Trump made war against the Republican Party, he won. Trump is also an eight time party switcher only becoming a Republican for the third time in 2012. Trump didn't campaign hard for these House Republicans and they don't owe Trump like they did Nixon. Time will tell of course. It all depends on Mueller and his report. If there is a there, there.

Democrats are the only ones crying out loud and raising a ruckus for impeachment. For impeachment to be successful there has to be a serious there, there. Independents must climb on board along with some Republicans or it is a waste of time. Public opinion must be for impeachment or it won't work.
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Great post, Perotista.

I agree with your numbers & analysis, but was earlier missing the Nixon GOP approval as he left office. Thanks for supplying it (I actually suspected it was around 50% or a bit less). And I must admit, you do make a good case for Trump being easier deserted by the GOP politicos, than Nixon was.

The Republican leadership is stuck with Trump. He's an albatross around their necks in many ways, but he enjoys 86% approval (last two polls) among their rank & file voters, so he can destroy them individually at his whim. They're pretty screwed, here.

And finally, I don't think we can underestimate the impact of the Repubs losing 49 seats just prior to their dumping Nixon. If the same were to occur this November (I doubt it will), I wouldn't be surprised if the GOP establishment start thinking about getting rid of Trump.
 
MrMike said:
He was to be impeached for three issues (articles), not one. But I'm happy to concede that obstruction of justice was one reason and I see why the Left needs to try and hang their hats on that one, but in this case, it just doesn't fly. I wish you luck in your endeavors though.

"On July 24, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled against him. On July 27, 29, and 30, 1974, the Committee approved three articles of impeachment against Nixon, for obstruction of justice, abuse of power, and contempt of Congress, and reported those articles to the House of Representatives."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_process_against_Richard_Nixon
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Let me see, Trump fired Comey and then on national TV said he was thinking about the investigation when he did the firing. And then later bragged to the Russian Ambassador that he had gotten rid fo the investigation. Sounds a lot like obstruction of justice to me. Seems to be a lot like Watergate.
 
ObamacareFail said:
Last time I checked, it is Russia that allegedly hacked into the dnc server, not the Trump team. You are correct in that Nixon's real problems started with cover ups and obstruction of justice. However there was a clear crime to begin with. Bill Clinton's problems were actually more similar to Nixon's. The Russian collusion nonsense however is a left wing spittle spewing, slobber on shoes, dribbling witch hunt. Nearly two years in and still no evidence of collusion. Mueller's goal has shifted to hoping to catch Trump in s process crime sych as a perjury trap.

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Do any of you Cons remember more than fifteen minutes back. Trump fired Comey who was leading an investigation into the Russian meddling in our election and to see of Trump or one of the members of his campaign colluded with the Russians. Trump fired Comey and said on national TV that he was thinking of the investigation when he did the firing. That is enough for obstruction of justice and he convicted himself by stating he was firing Comey to stop the investigation.
 
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trouble13 said:
Its not a great question. It's a backhanded swipe meant to insult Trump supporters. Would Obama supporters remained loyal to him if he had done what Nixon did? We already know Clinton supporters would. See how that works...

Sent from my SM-T800 using Tapatalk
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Clinton lied about a sexual affair. Not the same or as important to the nation as messing with our elections. Both Watergate and the Russian meddling have to do with the thing that has made us better than any other nation, our free elections. Thee difference between Clinton and the watergate and Russia is night and day.
 
ObamacareFail said:
If Mueller had anything worth anything, it would have leaked out by now. As for your Obamacare, If you like it, your in one of the following categories: You are one of the relatively few who is subsidized, you have a very generous employer, you are independently wealthy, or you are still on mommy and daddy's policy. Most Americans do not smile and take it when their health insurance is more expensive then their home mortgage payments and does not kick in until several thousand dollars out of pocket.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
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Unlike most of our government including Trump's Whitehouse, Mueller runs a very tight ship. When anything of importance takes place in this investigation, it is announced publicly, or hven't you noticed? Or do you only watch Fox News and listen to Rush Limbaugh so you don't get any real news.
 
independentusa said:
Unlike most of our government including Trump's Whitehouse, Mueller runs a very tight ship. When anything of importance takes place in this investigation, it is announced publicly, or hven't you noticed? Or do you only watch Fox News and listen to Rush Limbaugh so you don't get any real news.
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I would be willing to bet that today's news identifying Person A in the Indictments and the further announcement that Gates shuttled back and forth meeting with Person A is a warning to trump not to try to pardon Manafort. Pardoning Manafort regardless of what he might know if he flips could now be very dangerous for trump. Pardoning a guy that has committed crimes is one thing. Pardoning a guy that might have been planted by a foreign government is quite another. I suspect Manafort lost his shot at a pardon today. You never know...But I do think that is why we had this news today.
 
independentusa said:
Clinton lied about a sexual affair. Not the same or as important to the nation as messing with our elections. Both Watergate and the Russian meddling have to do with the thing that has made us better than any other nation, our free elections. Thee difference between Clinton and the watergate and Russia is night and day.
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Thank you for proving my point

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independentusa said:
I have seen so much written and spoken on the networks and media about the similarities and differences between Watergate and the Russian investigations. I hear the Trumpsters and present GOP saying constantly that there was no collusion or obstruction of justice. I don't know about collusion, but Nixon was forced out by firing the person investigating Watergate and Trump has admitted he fired Comey to end the Russian investigation. So if the present Trumpsters and GOP were politically active during Watergate, do you think they would have given Nixon a pass on his actions?
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That question is as useful as "Would Anti-Trumpers have supported Joe McCarthy?"
 
Chomsky said:
Great post, Perotista.

I agree with your numbers & analysis, but was earlier missing the Nixon GOP approval as he left office. Thanks for supplying it (I actually suspected it was around 50% or a bit less). And I must admit, you do make a good case for Trump being easier deserted by the GOP politicos, than Nixon was.

The Republican leadership is stuck with Trump. He's an albatross around their necks in many ways, but he enjoys 86% approval (last two polls) among their rank & file voters, so he can destroy them individually at his whim. They're pretty screwed, here.

And finally, I don't think we can underestimate the impact of the Repubs losing 49 seats just prior to their dumping Nixon. If the same were to occur this November (I doubt it will), I wouldn't be surprised if the GOP establishment start thinking about getting rid of Trump.
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Actually Nixon resigned in August and the GOP lost those seats in November. But the writing was on the wall. The GOP House republicans knew what was about to happen and they had hoped distancing themselves from Nixon might help. It didn't and distancing oneself from a sitting president of your own party rarely does, if ever.

I just received the latest from Larry Sabato this AM, there are now 37 house republicans who decided not to run for re-election. 37 open GOP House seats where there will be no incumbent. That is up 2 from yesterday. Forget the generic congressional polls, but look at the seats that are at risk of switching. 46 Republican house seats fall into that at risk category vs. 8 for the Democrats. 6 of those GOP house seats the Democratic candidate is a solid favorite or in plain English, those 6 seats are going to the democrats, call them safe Democratic seats currently held by the GOP. That means the Dems just need 17 of the remaining 40 GOP currently held house seats to take control. They'll get many more than that if the current trends continue. 30 plus in my book with what looks like a one seat loss at this time among the 8 at risk Democratic seats. A preview to my April Forecast.

I have a problem with polls that just list favorable and unfavorable, don't break it down to very and somewhat favorable. You don't get an accurate picture. Sure, 86% or there about of Republicans give Trump a favorable rating. What I want to know is how solid that support is. Trump's solid support is around 55%. The rest could vanish fairly quickly given a negative situation or circumstance.

Trump has the solid support of 55% of Republicans, 15% of Independents and 5% of democrats. 21% solid support nationwide. The somewhat support, not solid but favor or support him today subject to change is at 28% Republican, 16% Independent, 5% Democratic with a 16% somewhat support nationwide. These somewhat support can easily change into somewhat disapprove or somewhat unfavorable overnight. The same for the somewhat oppose or unfavorable could climb into the somewhat for Trump over night also. They are, the somewhat unfavorable, but not totally against Trump, 9% Republican, 11% Independent, 7% Democratic and 10% nationwide.

The solids, very favorable or very unfavorable don't change. They aren't going to change much at all. Perhaps a point or two over the long run, but they are solid in their view of Trump. Just had to add this. One can say that today, Trump's solid support, those who won't ever leave him is at the same level as Nixon's on the day he resigned. If Mueller finds a there, there. something very serious, Trump is in a heap of big trouble. It won't take much to move those somewhats favor or somewhat supports into the somewhat unfavorable or oppose column. The solids or very's aren't going to change much if at all. It's the somewhats that will desert him.
 
independentusa said:
Do any of you Cons remember more than fifteen minutes back. Trump fired Comey who was leading an investigation into the Russian meddling in our election and to see of Trump or one of the members of his campaign colluded with the Russians. Trump fired Comey and said on national TV that he was thinking of the investigation when he did the firing. That is enough for obstruction of justice and he convicted himself by stating he was firing Comey to stop the investigation.
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Sorry but no. If firing Comey were obstruction of justice, Mueller would have indicted him for it by now. You are confusing legal and political. Trump can legally fire anyone he chooses. He can even fire Mueller and not be indicted. It would be a very risky political move that would put him at great risk of impeachment, however he would never be convicted in the Senate. Nixon was not in a **** storm merely for firing Archibald Cox. His goose was pretty much cooked before then. However politically, it was the last straw.

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