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It's past time to tax churches

Cardinal said:
They are given them because of the assumption that they are charities, regardless of whether they act like them.

"Churches (including integrated auxiliaries and conventions or associations of churches) that meet the requirements of section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of exempt status from the IRS. Donors are allowed to claim a charitable deduction for donations to a church that meets the section 501(c)(3) requirements even though the church has neither sought nor received IRS recognition that it is tax exempt. In addition, because churches and certain other religious organizations are not required to file an annual return or notice with the IRS, they are not subject to automatic revocation of exemption for failure to file. See Annual Return Filing Exceptions for a complete list of organizations that are not required to file."

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-p...s-and-conventions-or-associations-of-churches

The "freedom of religion" argument is a red herring and I'll be ignoring it as a matter of course.
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Its not a red herring its sole reason why churches are tax exempt, the reason people get to use the deductions is along the same line of reasoning.
 
Cardinal said:
Giving a blanket tax exemption to churches is moronic. Tax them if act like a business and don't tax them if they act like a charity.
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Who gets to decide which category a given church would fall into,Lois Lerner?
 
Crovax said:
Its not a red herring its sole reason why churches are tax exempt, the reason people get to use the deductions is along the same line of reasoning.
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And if the church isn't acting like a charity but a business? That's the problem. It may not be, but it gets the automatic exemption anyway.
 
Crovax said:
Well, you are wrong

Here is from the Walz v Tax Commission (1970) decision

"The legislative purpose of tax exemptions is not aimed at establishing, sponsoring, or supporting religion, and New York's legislation simply spares the exercise of religion from the burden of property taxation levied on private profit institution

The tax exemption creates only a minimal and remote involvement between church and state, far less than taxation of churches would entail, and it restricts the fiscal relationship between them, thus tending to complement and reinforce the desired separation insulating each from the other

Freedom from taxation for two centuries has not led to an established church or religion, and, on the contrary, has helped to guarantee the free exercise of all forms of religious belief"

Walz v. Tax Comm'n of City of New York, (full text) :: 397 U.S. 664 (1970) :: Justia US Supreme Court Center
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Good point. But then couldn't it inversely say that taxing churches would also NOT lead to established church or religion?
 
washunut said:
Who gets to decide which category a given church would fall into,Lois Lerner?
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Um, there are extremely basic ways to determine whether an individual or institution is a business. As a small business owner myself I can say this is extremely basic. The system for determining a business didn't suddenly become archaic and fuzzy just because it entered the walls of a church.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Hmm... do you feel the same way about labor unions and all other non-profit organizations (e.g. Planned Parenthood)?

https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/big-labor-big-money
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If you can find me any passages where the founding fathers were saying there needs to be a separation of union and state I'm game to read it.

If it leads to abolishing tax free orgs altogether... sure. Just have charitable write-offs. Then clearly define what is considered "charitable."
 
Cardinal said:
And if the church isn't acting like a charity but a business? That's the problem. It may not be, but it gets the automatic exemption anyway.
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That is certainly a problem and that should be investigated and dealt with accordingly. But taxing a church/religion preemptively is an undue burden on the first amendment
 
Cardinal said:
And if the church isn't acting like a charity but a business? That's the problem. It may not be, but it gets the automatic exemption anyway.
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Well even if they do get taxed as a business (which they are) they will still be taxed at a far lower rate than you or I.
 
Crovax said:
That is certainly a problem and that should be investigated and dealt with accordingly.
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That's easy to say, but churches are betting on a lack of will and manpower to audit each of the 350,000 (number changes per year) churches currently in the United States. That has proven to be an extremely safe bet.
 
poweRob said:
Good point. But then couldn't it inversely say that taxing churches would also NOT lead to established church or religion?
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Taxing churches would make some churches/religions untenable and therefore unintentionally create favoritism of one church/religion over the others
 
Cardinal said:
That's easy to say, but churches are betting on a lack of will and manpower to audit each of the 350,000 (number changes per year) churches currently in the United States. That has proven to be an extremely safe bet.
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So govt is incompetent and inefficient and your answer is more govt? You dont see the problem do you?
 
Crovax said:
That is certainly a problem and that should be investigated and dealt with accordingly. But taxing a church/religion preemptively is an undue burden on the first amendment
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Its like there are no repercussions for getting political anymore.

Pastors take to pulpit to protest IRS limits on political endorsements

Pastors across the country are taking to their pulpits this Sunday to protest an Internal Revenue Service law that they say limits their religious freedom.

Pulpit Freedom Sunday is an initiative started in 2008 by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative Arizona-based non-profit focused on defending religious liberty.​
 
Crovax said:
So govt is incompetent and inefficient and your answer is more govt? You dont see the problem do you?
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I'm not discussing the competence of government, but the blanket assumption that an institution is acting like a charity without review and only for the reason that it goes under a certain name. It's a good racket if you want to make some cash and avoid paying the taxes on it.
 
Crovax said:
Taxing churches would make some churches/religions untenable and therefore unintentionally create favoritism of one church/religion over the others
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It sounds like you're admitting that the inherent assumption that churches are charities is understood to be false.
 
poweRob said:
Its like there are no repercussions for getting political anymore.

Pastors take to pulpit to protest IRS limits on political endorsements

Pastors across the country are taking to their pulpits this Sunday to protest an Internal Revenue Service law that they say limits their religious freedom.

Pulpit Freedom Sunday is an initiative started in 2008 by the Alliance Defending Freedom, a conservative Arizona-based non-profit focused on defending religious liberty.​
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There never should be I dont see how what a church says should be able to impact its tax status.
 
longview said:
Be careful what you wish for!
There could be plenty of unknown consequences to taxing religious organizations,
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Such as...?
 
it is beyond pathetic how the church in the US has become a whore for politicians; absolutely ****ing pathetic

Jesus would not approve of this bull**** whatsoever ..........
 
Cardinal said:
It sounds like you're admitting that the inherent assumption that churches are charities is understood to be false.
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No im actually saying that most churches act like charities so much they would close if subjected to taxes but as I have said multiple times in this thread. Taxation of churches has, nothing, zero, zilch, nada, to do with their charitable activities
 
Cardinal said:
I'm not discussing the competence of government, but the blanket assumption that an institution is acting like a charity without review and only for the reason that it goes under a certain name. It's a good racket if you want to make some cash and avoid paying the taxes on it.
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If you think there is so much money in it start your own church
 
Crovax said:
No im actually saying that most churches act like charities so much they would close if subjected to taxes but as I have said multiple times in this thread. Taxation of churches has, nothing, zero, zilch, nada, to do with their charitable activities
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How do you know that "most" churches act like charities?
 
Crovax said:
No im actually saying that most churches act like charities so much they would close if subjected to taxes but as I have said multiple times in this thread. Taxation of churches has, nothing, zero, zilch, nada, to do with their charitable activities
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What about taxing churches like any other org and let them write off their charitable donations and activities?
 
Crovax said:
If you think there is so much money in it start your own church
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I don't know how much money is in it, but since they are automatically operating under a 501c3 status there's no reason not operate like a business.
 
Geoist said:
Such as...?
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The power to tax is the power to destroy, care should be exercised.
As with any major change, the real problem is that we do not know what the consequences could be.
like changing from an income tax to a consumption tax, it sounds like a good idea, but could cause all sorts of issues
we will not have anticipated.
 
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