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"What is Happening to Men?" A First Response By Jordan Peterson

Jesse Booth said:
"Your" was a mistake. I apologize.

It's the boomers' fault our generations have been handed a stagnant economy, low social mobility, and horrendous parenting coupled with unnecessary medication. The best we can do is play what cards we have, and try to stop this problem here & now.
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Preachin to the choir, I'm a stay at home dad that works from home maybe 4 hours a day on paperwork. I've been present every day for my kids. My oldest is in the first grade and the teacher is just amazed at how advanced she is, her words were at least two years ahead of the other kids in reading vocabulary and math. I designed games around the alphabet and reading and played them everyday with her, I made songs about numbers. I talk to her constantly about how wonderful science is, and do simple experiments for fun. She legite wants to be a chemist when she grows up. We just made Crystal Rock Candy the other day.

And I'm teaching her to code with minecraft. Just started, but she is all about learning how to make her own mods.

Not only that I've always explained things like social issues in simple terms and used stories for larger concepts. I've never once ignored a question.

Results speak for themselves, my kid is happy and healthy and a problem solver. The most important thing to teach your kid is to ask questions, and not stop til you get the answer. Might be annoying to some, but it's the best way to prepare them.

Before my son passed, he was a gentle kind child who loved music. I bought him a piano, and had a whole thing planned. And when he passed, I taught my daughter how to grieve. I didn't take the easy route, I answered every hard painful question. The kind that make you want to curl up and cry for days. And she adjusted, she learned how to be sad and not break.

Being a good parent is the most important thing you will ever do, you are helping the people you love most prepare for a harsh and cruel world. I can't understand how that's not everyone's main priority.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Preachin to the choir, I'm a stay at home dad that works from home maybe 4 hours a day on paperwork. I've been present every day for my kids. My oldest is in the first grade and the teacher is just amazed at how advanced she is, her words were at least two years ahead of the other kids in reading vocabulary and math. I designed games around the alphabet and reading and played them everyday with her, I made songs about numbers. I talk to her constantly about how wonderful science is, and do simple experiments for fun. She legite wants to be a chemist when she grows up. We just made Crystal Rock Candy the other day.

And I'm teaching her to code with minecraft. Just started, but she is all about learning how to make her own mods.

Not only that I've always explained things like social issues in simple terms and used stories for larger concepts. I've never once ignored a question.

Results speak for themselves, my kid is happy and healthy and a problem solver. The most important thing to teach your kid is to ask questions, and not stop til you get the answer. Might be annoying to some, but it's the best way to prepare them.

Before my son passed, he was a gentle kind child who loved music. I bought him a piano, and had a whole thing planned. And when he passed, I taught my daughter how to grieve. I didn't take the easy route, I answered every hard painful question. The kind that make you want to curl up and cry for days. And she adjusted, she learned how to be sad and not break.

Being a good parent is the most important thing you will ever do, you are helping the people you love most prepare for a harsh and cruel world. I can't understand how that's not everyone's main priority.
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I'm terribly sorry about your son, but I'm pleased to hear about your success as a parent. I fully intend to do as good a job at it as you're doing, someday.
 
Jesse Booth said:
Like I said earlier, there's a lot of variables at work in comparing Sweden and America. For the purposes of discussing single motherhood in America, it's positively correlated with unplanned pregnancies, low income households, and distressed family life. I imagine those correlations are significantly less severe in Sweden, or at the very least, that they are better offset by one of the finest social safety nets and education systems in the western world.

For the purposes of discussing American households, it is a strong indicator for educational failure and future criminality. This does not mean that fatherless households cause criminality and educational failing, merely that they are correlated.
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Actually, I am not a fan of single motherhood. But, facts are facts. And, pointing to single moms as THE problem, as Vesper did, is not based in reality. Sweden proves that.
 
NeverTrumpGOP said:
Not according to this study, but of course it doesn't match your preconceptions (which is all this topic is) so you won't look into it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1395774/
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ADHD is a hyperactive disorder. People who have it act exactly as I said (to varying degrees) when they don't have their meds.

Most girls who have an attention disorder aren't hyperactive, so they wouldn't have ADHD but a general attention deficit disorder. I was speaking specifically about attention deficit hyperactive disorder.
 
Jesse Booth said:
I'm terribly sorry about your son, but I'm pleased to hear about your success as a parent. I fully intend to do as good a job at it as you're doing, someday.
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The key is finding a partner that doesn't stress you out. No joke, your kids are fun when your not stressed and it's easy to teach them. It's easy to find someone you love, very hard to find one that doesn't stress you out. I locked mine down soon as I realized we didn't get on each others nerves.
 
NeverTrumpGOP said:
Not according to this study, but of course it doesn't match your preconceptions (which is all this topic is) so you won't look into it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1395774/
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Did you even read your "study?"

It is entitled "Perceptions of Girls and ADHD: Results From a National Survey"

Not actual statistics on children diagnosed and treated for ADD/ADHD. Just how those surveyed see it affecting girls vs. boys.

The statistics on actual figures you keep ignoring are from the CDC as quoted in the article I provided, and as repeatedly cited to you by other members herein.

Those statistics show more boys are diagnosed and treated than girls by a factor of 2:1 and progressing to 5:1 in secondary school.

Those are the facts on which the arguments are based.

Meanwhile, that is only ONE of the symptoms of the effects of anti-male issues raised by my OP.

There is the increase in male suicides, reductions in males going to college with increasing numbers dropping out as compared to females.

Fewer men marrying, fewer men staying to take care of their children, more men getting involved in the MGTOW movement.

This has been evolving over the last 30 years, about the same time male youth began the mass shooting phenomena.

It may well be one explanation that people prefer to shy away from, since it upsets third wave feminist ideology.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
Preachin to the choir, I'm a stay at home dad that works from home maybe 4 hours a day on paperwork. I've been present every day for my kids. My oldest is in the first grade and the teacher is just amazed at how advanced she is, her words were at least two years ahead of the other kids in reading vocabulary and math. I designed games around the alphabet and reading and played them everyday with her, I made songs about numbers. I talk to her constantly about how wonderful science is, and do simple experiments for fun. She legite wants to be a chemist when she grows up. We just made Crystal Rock Candy the other day.

And I'm teaching her to code with minecraft. Just started, but she is all about learning how to make her own mods.

Not only that I've always explained things like social issues in simple terms and used stories for larger concepts. I've never once ignored a question.

Results speak for themselves, my kid is happy and healthy and a problem solver. The most important thing to teach your kid is to ask questions, and not stop til you get the answer. Might be annoying to some, but it's the best way to prepare them.

Before my son passed, he was a gentle kind child who loved music. I bought him a piano, and had a whole thing planned. And when he passed, I taught my daughter how to grieve. I didn't take the easy route, I answered every hard painful question. The kind that make you want to curl up and cry for days. And she adjusted, she learned how to be sad and not break.

Being a good parent is the most important thing you will ever do, you are helping the people you love most prepare for a harsh and cruel world. I can't understand how that's not everyone's main priority.
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ThoughtEX are you doing this raising of your child on your own or do you have a wife that contributes?
 
vesper said:
ThoughtEX are you doing this raising of your child on your own or do you have a wife that contributes?
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I have a wife, been married almost 9 years. She works, white collar job, not very stressful. I underwrite contracts for a large insurance company. When I want a little extra cash I go out in the field as an Financial Advisor that specializes in retirement.
 
ThoughtEx. said:
I have a wife, been married almost 9 years. She works, white collar job, not very stressful. I underwrite contracts for a large insurance company. When I want a little extra cash I go out in the field as an Financial Advisor that specializes in retirement.
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Thank you for your reply. You have a working marriage. It makes all the difference in the world in relation to children. As you stated being a good parent is the most important thing you can do, I agree.

My point is it can't be done with one parent. It takes two. Each the father and the mother bring something to the table the other doesn't possess. One has head the other has heart. Both are needed to raise a child in the way they should go.
 
vesper said:
Thank you for your reply. You have a working marriage. It makes all the difference in the world in relation to children. As you stated being a good parent is the most important thing you can do, I agree.

My point is it can't be done with one parent. It takes two. Each the father and the mother bring something to the table the other doesn't possess. One has head the other has heart. Both are needed to raise a child in the way they should go.
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I beat you to it, check out post 105, lol.
 
Josie said:
ADHD is a hyperactive disorder. People who have it act exactly as I said (to varying degrees) when they don't have their meds.

Most girls who have an attention disorder aren't hyperactive, so they wouldn't have ADHD but a general attention deficit disorder. I was speaking specifically about attention deficit hyperactive disorder.
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basic research says otherwise. To suggest it doesn't exist in girls is a gross oversimplification, but it's what I've come to expect from you: https://www.webmd.com/add-adhd/childhood-adhd/features/adhd-different-girls#1
 
Captain Adverse said:
Did you even read your "study?"

It is entitled "Perceptions of Girls and ADHD: Results From a National Survey"

Not actual statistics on children diagnosed and treated for ADD/ADHD. Just how those surveyed see it affecting girls vs. boys.

The statistics on actual figures you keep ignoring are from the CDC as quoted in the article I provided, and as repeatedly cited to you by other members herein.

Those statistics show more boys are diagnosed and treated than girls by a factor of 2:1 and progressing to 5:1 in secondary school.

Those are the facts on which the arguments are based.

Meanwhile, that is only ONE of the symptoms of the effects of anti-male issues raised by my OP.

There is the increase in male suicides, reductions in males going to college with increasing numbers dropping out as compared to females.

Fewer men marrying, fewer men staying to take care of their children, more men getting involved in the MGTOW movement.

This has been evolving over the last 30 years, about the same time male youth began the mass shooting phenomena.

It may well be one explanation that people prefer to shy away from, since it upsets third wave feminist ideology.
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Yeah perceptions showing that there is a problem determining whether girls have ADHD or not. It's harder to spot in girls, but that doesn't mean they don't have it and it doesn't necessarily mean that more boys have it than girls. Just right now we have an easier time spotting it in boys. Regardless ADHD has nothing whatsoever to do with the fake anti-man crap that you are talking about.
 
I think it’s very interesting that you have threads about how males are oppressed. Even if Trump administration consists of 80 percent males and only around 10 percent of billionaires are woman.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...the-most-male-dominated-government-in-decades

The Percentage of Women Billionaires Compared to Men Is Shrinking | Fortune

There I think the reason for thread like this is that people have been so accustomed to males having more privileges and power than woman.

While at the same you have seen a drastic increase in inequality during the last couple of decades and it’s much easier to blame the negative effect from that on for example woman and minorities instead of the economic elite.

U.S. inequality keeps getting uglier - Dec. 22, 2016

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...donald-trump-world-economic-forum-risk-report

While at the same time USA may need the same policies that we have here in Sweden that makes it easy for both man and woman to raise a family, with for example 480 days of parental leave, good and heavily subsidized daycare and free health care for children.

https://sweden.se/society/10-things-that-make-sweden-family-friendly/

https://sweden.se/society/10-things-that-make-sweden-family-friendly/
 
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Captain Adverse said:
I have been pointing things raised by this video out in various Form responses, principally based on my personal observations about changes in American Society over the last 50 years.

This interview on the Tucker Carlson show with Professor Jordan Peterson opens up some of the very issues I've raised about the social oppression of the modern American male:



Tucker Carlson's opening monologue sets the stage with all the statistics, studies, and facts on the decline of men in western society.

If you want to avoid hearing those facts, the interview with Peterson starts at 7:51.


Gist: The decline of males is due to directed policy to instill the idea that there is something wrong with masculinity; that it should be limited in all sorts of arbitrary ways to control males.

That male behavior is often diagnosed as ADD or ADHD and boys are being drugged up to make them more complacent.

That male competitiveness is a bad thing and needs to be eliminated from human interactions.

That all this drives the patriarchal tyranny which oppresses women. That current society is pushing this ideology on boys teaching them they are prone to female oppression, rape culture, and toxic masculinity.

Well you get is boys becoming depressed, angry, and frustrated...leading to?

Here is another video on the issue:

[video=youtube;5ER1LOarlgg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ER1LOarlgg[video]
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While I agreed with most of the statistics in the first video...I think the professor is too politically biased to be objective on this issue. So I don't think I missed much by not watching the second video.

The high suicide rate among white middle aged men is alarming...but the suicide rate among black men and other minorities is still pretty low by comparison. So do blacks and minorities raise their kids and have any better education than most white family's do?

Men die by suicide 3.53x more often than women. White males accounted for 7 of 10 suicides in 2016. The rate of suicide is highest in middle age — white men in particular.
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https://afsp.org/about-suicide/suicide-statistics/​

What about the demands that society places on men to achieve success? What happens to a man's self worth when he fails to achieve those standards? How does a man feel when he loses his job, his house and/or can't support his family...and/or too old to start over? None of that was mentioned as a cause in the video but there was plenty of blame on single moms, bad parenting, HDAD/ADD, schools...and the left. But if any of that were true, then why aren't more older blacks and/or minority men committing suicide?


IMO it is the new "Males are evil" that is causing the increase in young male acting out in various ways...including mass shootings.
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I think it's 4chan. You can practically trace the young white male pity party right back to them.
.

So what is it about equality that threatens some men so?
 
Jesse Booth said:
Well for one, there's no recess break for many schools, which means that kids have no opportunity to blow off excess energy during the day. This is bad for kids in general, but especially for boys, given that they tend to be more active than girls in many cases. There were also a few instances in the Common Core teaching standards where proscribed teaching methods got a bit more abstract than necessary, particularly with math.
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They took the paddle out of the classroom, and in doing so, they needed another way to control the typical boys-will-be-boys activity, so they resulted to medicating away their personalities.

Now, we've got the #MeToo movement that expects accusers to be automatically believed while condemning the denials of the accused.

The movement to raise the equality of women started out fine -- women simply wanted their fair share -- that's not too much to expect, but then, the movement became insidious and began to think they should step on men to keep them down. That's where it took a wrong turn. Nothing good ever comes from subverting another.

We're seeing a similar thing on a racial scale, and the problem with this sort of thing is that it fails to treat people as individuals. Rather, it depends on creating false groups and painting them with broad stereotypes.

It's sad. It's misguided. But, it's probably inevitable.
 
Jesse Booth said:
As mentioned earlier in the thread by Ttwtt[some numbers], schools get more funding when they have more students taking perscription drugs, which gives schools a direct incentive to overdiagnose children. There's also no longer a recess period in many schools, which means that kids don't have an opportunity to burn off any excess energy. This leads to less focused children, and in particular, less focused boys. Boys then get diagnosed more frequently as having ADD or ADHD. Education isn't actually working towards the strengths of male children, e.g. their excessive energy and curiosity, and is instead dosing them up with Schedule 2 drugs.

I fully agree that calling this a conspiracy is melodramatic, but surely you see why this is a significant problem.
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I do not deny that the over-medicating of children is a problem. I was just objecting to the notion that it has anything to do with an attempt to suppress masculinity.

And, in the last line, making a poor attempt at channeling your sense of humor :lol:
 
Jesse Booth said:
Possibly, depending on your definition of masculinity and of whining. If it is, does that change the fact that men suffer from a massive overrepresentation in suicides, ADD/ADHD diagnoses and dropouts from high school/college?
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Those are all real problems, which is something I cannot say about the ops imagined social oppression of men
 
Jesse Booth said:
The other 4/5 are fortunate enough not to be stuffed full of drugs to quiet them down.

GOP, I was a bookish little kid who got off-topic constantly as a child because the rest of the class couldn't keep up with me. I have never been in an actual fight in my life. I just wanted to read a book while everyone else was still struggling with a subject I had mastered a week ago. And I was given drugs to fix that, because a medical professional said I needed them. When I started lashing out after moving away from all my friends and into a new town after my parents split up, I was given more drugs by a trusted medical professional. When my grades started to drop in middle school, I WAS GIVEN MORE DRUGS BY A TRUSTED MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL.

I'm drug free now and at an acceptable college, but I will never get back the time for mental development I had as a child. The years I spent dulled with chemicals is a permanent stain on my progress.

I'm not saying there's some overarching conspiracy targeting men. I'm saying that drugs are not the appropriate solution to active children, or for emotional distress in children. Despite this, there is an economic incentive to prescribe drugs to children. Why is this such a distressing assertion, that you will post repeatedly in a thread whose subject you refuse to familiarize yourself with?
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Because of the op, who claims there is a social oppression of men and masculinity. Therefore, any problem raised in this thread will be linked to the idea that it is evidence of this claimed oppression.
 
Josie said:
Boys are diagnosed with ADHD overwhelmingly more than girls. And the topic is about boys and men.
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And males are diagnosed with prostrate problems overwhelmingly more than females

More evidence of the social oppression of men :roll:
 
vesper said:
Thank you for your reply. You have a working marriage. It makes all the difference in the world in relation to children. As you stated being a good parent is the most important thing you can do, I agree.

My point is it can't be done with one parent. It takes two. Each the father and the mother bring something to the table the other doesn't possess. One has head the other has heart. Both are needed to raise a child in the way they should go.
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As a 'whole' I would agree, especially with those single parents by choice.

But there are plenty of people that are single parents by circumstance, and if they work hard at it, their children are raised just fine and in a way they should be. My father died when I was 6yrs old and my sister was 4. We were thrown into poverty by no choice of our own, and my mother worked her ass off to get us out of it and to raise us at the same time. And she did a damn good job of it. :)

It CAN be done and be done well. You have to want to.
 
When Peterson broke down in the second video, it's because he felt like these young men coming to see him were finally finding a purpose, which is a big deal for many men. Many of us possess the need to feel like we're doing something productive and we live in such a dull, instant gratification society where there aren't as many challenges as there were in the old days. A man in the old days had the important job of bringing home money to a woman who would then use it to work hard to ensure the children and father had a quality existence. Husband and wife both had very important roles and the children realized it and they were all very close and relied heavily on each other (for the most part, of course there were exceptions). There was a strong family bond and there was usually a consistent source of love. And when I say love, I don't mean giddy happiness, I mean knowing that someone wants what's best for you. Do most of these mass shooters come from this type of family? Do most inner city shooters?
A boy who doesn't grow up in a stable, loving environment may wonder "why am I here?" and "why would anyone want me?", esp. after being put on medications for mental "disorders". Some are fortunate enough to come across a good teacher and/or mentor. Many are not and do whatever it takes, good or bad, to be considered significant to others.
 
Moot said:
While I agreed with most of the statistics in the first video...I think the professor is too politically biased to be objective on this issue. So I don't think I missed much by not watching the second video.

The high suicide rate among white middle aged men is alarming...but the suicide rate among black men and other minorities is still pretty low by comparison. So do blacks and minorities raise their kids and have any better education than most white family's do?


What about the demands that society places on men to achieve success? What happens to a man's self worth when he fails to achieve those standards? How does a man feel when he loses his job, his house and/or can't support his family...and/or too old to start over? None of that was mentioned as a cause in the video but there was plenty of blame on single moms, bad parenting, HDAD/ADD, schools...and the left. But if any of that were true, then why aren't more older blacks and/or minority men committing suicide?




I think it's 4chan. You can practically trace the young white male pity party right back to them.
.

So what is it about equality that threatens some men so?
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As a whole, and IMO from what I've experienced, I don't think Blacks and Hispanics turn to drugging their kids as easily and often as Whites do. They discipline more effectively, and not blame a 'condition' for their kids unruly behavior. The kids also tend to respect their parents more as well.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Watch...the...videos. :doh
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Why? These claims would make more sense if they came from someone other than an intro by Tucker the gossip whore. He is very difficult to watch, with all his grandstanding and trying to fill O'Reilly's shoes.
I would be tempted to read the transcripts, but refuse to watch the video.
Your claim is based on the opinions of 2, not on a consensus. Can we therefor assume this to be another perception creating a false reality?
 
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